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Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned

ProFracPilot

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So, I can "voluntarily separate" (quit, resign, whatever), take nothing from the company = I'm good. But if I "voluntarily separate" (quit, resign, whatever), take something the company is offering in exchange for giving up my recall rights = not good.

It truly is all about the collective. But once you "volunteer" to no longer be part of the collective, you're going to take a financial screwing. By the collective.
 

doh

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They are offering a negation of bargaining rights to everyone staying. That must never be accepted. A good deal for a small percentage of pilots that Fs the vast majority is not a good deal. It's a fantastic deal for the foks to be able to jump the seniority list, so the union should allow upgrades picked by management? This is no different.
 

ProFracPilot

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They are offering a negation of bargaining rights to everyone staying.

I disagree with your premise. A VSP does not "negate" current bargaining rights. Does it weaken the unions ability to negotiate? Perhaps. But the weakness was already built into the current CBA. Of course those weaknesses will be exploited.
 

Mach94

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They are offering a negation of bargaining rights to everyone staying. That must never be accepted. A good deal for a small percentage of pilots that Fs the vast majority is not a good deal. It's a fantastic deal for the foks to be able to jump the seniority list, so the union should allow upgrades picked by management? This is no different.


It's no different?! It is completely different. It's voluntary. If you don't want it, you don't put in for it. If you want to walk away with some cash and never come back, put in for it. There are many pilots who are making top 10% salary that would love to do this who are in their 60's and ready to retire. This could let them do so earlier. Most if not all of those who were furloughed have been furloughed at least once before, and with the massive down sizing of the company and it turning into an on demand charter service, most of them probably have no interest in coming back, especially when they are just placed eventually on the bottom of Flexjet's list and still subject to the next Ricci fiasco that will ensure furloughs. The VSP is a great kick-start to help pad that situation for those pilots who have suffered the most since the 1108 has been on board since day one.

There is absolutely nothing detrimental to it, except the FUD from union leadership about throwing out the CBA, which is ludicrous and there is no legal precedence that that has ever happened. None. It is nothing but union propaganda and posturing to increase pressure on the company to negotiate.

In fact, there are many airlines who are doing things to help pilots out that are not in an LOA for the benefit of the company and helping pilots in the process. A few good examples are most unionized regional airlines (over a dozen), including PSA, piedmont, Republic, American Eagle, Express Jet, Gojet, Trans States, Mesa, Compass, Endeavor, the list goes on - are giving signing bonuses of up to $23,000 just to get pilots to apply because they are so short of pilots, with nothing in their CBA allowing that to happen and in order to stay competitive, or as time catches up, some LOA's are now happening after the fact that the company already started doing it. An interesting fact here, the only union balking at this is Republic's pilots, who are Teamsters. The ALPA carriers have not complained. Gojet airline's pilots, also Teamsters, have not complained. The Republic teamsters union 357 sued over the fact that with the signing bonus the year 1 pilots are making more than year 2 pilots. Understandable. That should be fixed. And the company started paying pilots to work on their days off money that was not negotiated. Fair enough. But did the CBA get thrown out because the company is adding signing bonuses with nothing in the contract to do so? No. It did not. Was there any language in the law suit purporting that it would, or any talk from union leaders stating those kinds of ludicrous statements of the CBA being thrown out if it was allowed? No. There was not. Do you think ALPA would allow a company to do something that would jeopardize their CBA just happen? And Gojet, Teamsters, are doing it. No, this is a unique "view" and is nothing but rhetoric in the bloody battle between EV, LH and management. And it is costing pilots who will be furloughed money for stupid reasons only to try to force the company to negotiate.

Instead of filing an injunction, the union could have ran the other direction with it. The union could have taken that ball and ran with it ensuring that in the JCBA the company adopt this new "precedence" and always give a VSP when they furlough. The union already is applying maximum pressure with lawsuits over the company's failure to negotiate. The furloughed pilots' VSP did not have to be sacrificed.

But no, the union took Ricci's juicy bait and did the worst thing the union could do to destroy the union's solidarity and ensure a successful decertification when the time comes. Bad news is raining almost daily at flight options, and barring a retraction of the union on balking at the VSP, I don't see the union recovering from this one. KR could not ask for a better outcome.

Did I mention I am a MiGs? The union minions have accused me of being an FoK or even management. But the fact is, I supported this union right up to the VSP. I supported the citation Air deal, I've supported most of the tough if immature and emotional responses of the new union leadership that muddied the waters and barely by the narrowest of margins pulled off a victory in adding Flexjet's pilots and keeping the 1108. Although not a member of any committee I talked with my P2P rep monthly at least and kept abreast of what was going on, and supported the union's efforts talking with flight options and then Flexjet pilots when appropriate at the FBO's. I did not do any overtime while we had pilots on furlough, etc. etc. I was a good little union pilot and did what was expected and did what I was told.

But the more ridiculous BS rhetoric I hear defending this poor decision, and the lies of why it was so important that are so blatantly obvious and ridiculous in merit, the more it pisses me off, makes me to not trust our union leadership anymore, and makes me even more upset with the 1108 and its leadership. And I know from hearing the banter at the FBO's that I'm not the only one feeling this way. And yet, the VUH has been virtually silent since the injunction was announced. A massive, sudden decrease in VUH activity from both pilot groups. That alone should be a big, huge red flag for the union. No one has anything to say anymore, even after the company gave a heads up of very bad news approaching and we all know that means way more furloughs are coming. You can hear crickets in the VUH it's so silent.
 
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Praetorian

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Everyone needs to relax. It's all going to get worked out in court next week.

From our union today:

"Just yesterday, United States District Court Judge James S. Gwin imposed an order on the Company and the Union setting a hearing on the [Union's] motion for temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction for 5/11/16 at 12:00 p.m., Courtroom 18A [in the Cleveland federal courthouse]. Thus, next week your Union representatives and our legal counsel will appear in federal court in Cleveland on behalf of both the Flight Options and Flexjet pilots to present our case that the carrier has repeatedly violated the Railway Labor Act and attempted to weaken your rights to secure a strong collective bargaining agreement. As always, we will remain transparent and continue to keep you apprised of any information regarding this important dispute."
 
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Bjtdrvr

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Well now a Federal judge will be looking at it and a ruling I am sure will be issued.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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Might be quiet on the VUH, but the facts are being sent out by email. Just read them, it's that simple. And what about Ricci's promise to let all of the pilots have access to Yammer? I know, just another empty promise. What makes you think he will uphold his word this time? We will see what happens on May 11th before the Federal Judge.
 

shanes123

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I could give a Rats A about yammer. 3 FJ guys got fired cause of that stupid thing. And again if ricci broke his promise to a bunch of anti union old FRTS who cares. They were leaving with no intention of coming back anyway. Hopefully the judge will straighten out this mess and it will work out the best for everybody.

Mach I hope you retain your job if that's what you want and continue to be a union supportert this union isn't perfect but it's better then the alternative.
 
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993_Pilot

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993. Once again. A who cares how it's administered. 1. ITS VOLUNTARY...

You are missing a big part of the picture here, it is voluntary to throw your hat in the VSP ring, but no guarantee that it would be accepted. Management still gets to cherry-pick who and when (along with their own reasons why) they accept any VSP. Again, all KR and his team had to do was negotiate with the union and they probably could have gotten very similar, if not the exact same conditions as long as they agreed on the methodology. I would be right there with your assessment if management had actually attempted to negotiate in good faith, but instead they would rather spin baby spin, and blame it all on the union. Sad that you and others can't see through his charade and are falling for it, hook, line & sinker.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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Ricci said 80 extra pilots. 70 wanted the VSP. Ricci said he was going to do the right thing despite the union but instead he furloughed 40 pilots. Just doesn't make sense to me.
 

doh

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Ricci said 80 extra pilots. 70 wanted the VSP. Ricci said he was going to do the right thing despite the union but instead he furloughed 40 pilots. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Hence my assertion they would have furloughed anyway.
 

Imissmypilot

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But the more ridiculous BS rhetoric I hear defending this poor decision, and the lies of why it was so important that are so blatantly obvious and ridiculous in merit, the more it pisses me off, makes me to not trust our union leadership anymore, and makes me even more upset with the 1108 and its leadership. And I know from hearing the banter at the FBO's that I'm not the only one feeling this way. And yet, the VUH has been virtually silent since the injunction was announced. A massive, sudden decrease in VUH activity from both pilot groups. That alone should be a big, huge red flag for the union. No one has anything to say anymore, even after the company gave a heads up of very bad news approaching and we all know that means way more furloughs are coming. You can hear crickets in the VUH it's so silent.


Then why not complain on the vuh where your point of view has a chance of reaching leadership and effecting change? My bet is because A.) you either know you're wrong and will be summarly schooled or B.) you have a name attached to yourself that exposes your real agenda. I'm not the brightest bulb but even i can see this.

You are either a coward or liar. Either way I've determined you have nothing of value to add to the conversation until you can back up your assertions with some facts that "every" pilot you run into is concerned. To the contrary, I can hardly find a pilot who even knows this is going on.

And that is way, way more concerning than any alleged fumble a judge will answer in a few short days anyways. It's the lifestyle of complacency and apathy we can't survive.
 

Mach94

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Says the guy with the anonymous name on the anonymous board. Lulz! That really is funny.

I just read your posts. It took me about 2 seconds to see what you are. I don't have time for flame bait, especially from ungrateful, arrogant, self-entitled flexjet pilots like yourself. You have no dog in this fight because you have no sweat equity in the 1108 as many of us have over 10 years invested in it. You have the luxury of reaping the benefits of our sacrifices and equity, most importantly a 9-month clock which hopefully will start for you one day, if Ricci is not successful in shutting down Flight Options before it can expire as I think is his plan, and until this fiasco, the solidarity of the Flight Options pilots. You also have shown nothing but disrespect and ingratitude for what many have done for you on the Flex side. I doubt you are a MiGs either, and if you are, you've paid what, 2 months' dues? So IDGAF what your useless, unrespected opinion is, and based on your post history and the responses to them, no one else does either. So flame away, I don't care. I just consider the source. I've said my peace, where I wanted to say it, how I wanted to say it. I know several pilots feel the same way I do as the conversations flow at the FBO's and the hotel lounges, and a few have spoken up and said so here. The facts are there for anyone to see. If some wish to deny it, that's on them and certainly is their prerogative. And for clarity, I never said "every pilot."

We will see what happens in court. Good day, Gentlemen. And Imissmypilot.
 
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Imissmypilot

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Says the guy with the anonymous name on the anonymous board. Lulz! That really is funny.

No my precise point was if you feel this passionately about it and this is the only place you are voicing your opinion, then you are either a liar with an agenda or a coward who should expect nothing. Yes, I'm here but it's not the only place I make sure my voice is heard.

As usual, with just a little pressure applied people's real personality comes out. Take your toys and run. You just invalidated the entirety of your argument with you lack of interest or ability to stand by it as you exit in a huff of your own smoke and mirrors.
 

Imissmypilot

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Hmmmm...

I love history.

In light of the recent court case, it is so interesting to go back and remember reality. You know back when the union was guaranteeing Ricci would find a way to **** with pilots if the VSP were allowed to go unchecked...

Yup. History is fun. More today bull**** brought to you by yesterday's total lack of solidarity and support for the union. How many more of these are we gonna take to learn?
 

Imissmypilot

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Isn't ironic how Farquaad admits he allowed too many pilots to take the VSP in his latest propaganda video.

No GC that was codespeak for "wow I really ****ed up with that retaliatory furlough! Sure glad I covered my ass with a fake VSP I can use to obscure my disdain for my own employees."
 

1folinepilot

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The video was hillarious with CK sitting there to the right of 2N just smiling and nodding in gleeful admiration trying to beg his way into a Gulfstream
 

1folinepilot

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Video 2 is up and CK is still gleefully smiling and nodding in agreement to his master again. Another subtle prop in the video was the stuffed rat on the lower step of the Red Lable aircraft in the background and the bag of trash on the upper stair.

2N completely danced around what sets apart red lable from traditional because we all know there is absolutely no difference. All the pilots are trained the same, all wear the same uniform, have the same bording coreograpy and have the same responsibilities and held to the same accountability. What 2N was infering with his vague refrence to accountability was an “expectation” to look the other way and play ball to get the trip done irregardless of FAR’s, SOP’s or common sense.
 
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