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Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned

Club ORD FO

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Mach do you think it's possible that the judge will simply tell both sides to sit down on work out an agreement? An agreed upon VSP may still happen...?
 

greygoose

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An agreed upon VSP may still happen...?

No, writing a LOA leaves a open door every time a furlough happens in the future. The Co, may not want to offer that anymore since it was a one time offer. Clearly makes sense why the Co. didn't want to sign off on a LOA.
Literally the Fri before the VSP offer expires the Union is notified of overstaffed X and 400 capts. Sad part is it took the Union till Sunday to realease this information to the group. This gave the next 16 pilots at the bottom one days time to get their decision in, all while the Union sat in it for two days.

Side note, I do find it interesting that 40 were furloughed 24 on the street. 16 are at Flex still working, but is now 16 overstaffed in two fleets brining the total count to 40 again. Coincidence? My personal belief is I have to agree, there is going to be slow and sudden chops to the Options list and eventually shut It down. Everyone will go begging for a VSP when it comes to their number and will be turned down.
 

shanes123

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Trying to bargain a return for people taking a VSP is just plain stupid. If that's the case I will take a 20 year VSP. Full pay and benefits please. Also would like the per diiem and CC to charge my meals 16 days a month.
You're negotiating for a group that is looking to leave and never return. Their entitled to nothing. Anything would be better than that. If I was the company my offer would have been half of what their giving. This was a serious wrong move by the union and they need to acknowledge and live up to it and try and fix it. Let these VSP people go. Who give a FK save the guys on the bottom that have families, mortgages, medical bills...
 

doh

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No, writing a LOA leaves a open door every time a furlough happens in the future. The Co, may not want to offer that anymore since it was a one time offer. Clearly makes sense why the Co. didn't want to sign off on a LOA.
Literally the Fri before the VSP offer expires the Union is notified of overstaffed X and 400 capts. Sad part is it took the Union till Sunday to realease this information to the group. This gave the next 16 pilots at the bottom one days time to get their decision in, all while the Union sat in it for two days.

Side note, I do find it interesting that 40 were furloughed 24 on the street. 16 are at Flex still working, but is now 16 overstaffed in two fleets brining the total count to 40 again. Coincidence? My personal belief is I have to agree, there is going to be slow and sudden chops to the Options list and eventually shut It down. Everyone will go begging for a VSP when it comes to their number and will be turned down.


Let's get something straight. The union didn't sit on a thing! Management, those slimy aholes, sat on the letter and tossed it on the table when they were supposed to be meeting to negotiate fences. But because they are lying scumbags, they put that out instead of sticking to what they promised to negotiate. They knew they were going to execute the furlough months ago! But instead of giving proper notice, they sat on it. And because they sat on it, the union's initial response assumed it was a leave of absence. So their initial response was recall rights. You see, when management lies and deceives, honest people may not be clear on what the scumbags are trying to accomplish. Good faith negotiations would have alleviated that, but aholes like our management are incapable of decent human behavior. This has nothing to do with the union. This is all a product of scumbag management. If you two can't see that, then there is nothing that will help you.
 

slowtation capt

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What is really puzzling here, this debate, argument, whatever. Why in the world does this occur only when some feels the Union did something wrong. Never do I see anyone here or on the vuh get as fired up about something and there have been plenty of things that management has done.
 

shanes123

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No one has defended management on anything. And I would think most pilots expect nothing from management but the usual screw job, this is our union and their suppose to be doing right by the pilot group. This was not doing right by the pilots and I don't wanna hear the BS defending the CBA. The CBA could have been defended and the VSP accepted.
 

Mach94

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Let's get something straight. The union didn't sit on a thing! Management, those slimy aholes, sat on the letter and tossed it on the table when they were supposed to be meeting to negotiate fences. But because they are lying scumbags, they put that out instead of sticking to what they promised to negotiate. They knew they were going to execute the furlough months ago! But instead of giving proper notice, they sat on it. And because they sat on it, the union's initial response assumed it was a leave of absence. So their initial response was recall rights. You see, when management lies and deceives, honest people may not be clear on what the scumbags are trying to accomplish. Good faith negotiations would have alleviated that, but aholes like our management are incapable of decent human behavior. This has nothing to do with the union. This is all a product of scumbag management. If you two can't see that, then there is nothing that will help you.

No one is disputing that, doh. You are absolutely right. Two wrongs do not however make a right, and right after management did that scumbag thing the union did its own scumbag thing and are attempting to take the VSP away from the pilots. The union is culpable for that part of it and no, most of us affected or about to be affected by the furlough don't buy the lame-ass excuse of the CBA being thrown out the window if the union had just signed off on the LOA and let the pilots get some f'ing money on their way out the door, because most of us have no intention of coming back after this one. The company probably won't even exist in 18 months anyway.

Stop pointing at management. Yes, management are scumbags. Yes, they caused this. Yes, they are culpable. And yes, the union took the bait and Ricci now gets what he wanted. Destroyed unity and solidarity. The union sacrificed its queen to take a pawn. Idiotic move. And now, the union is culpable for using the furloughs as a pawn in their game to try to force the company to the negotiating table. The union already has plenty of ammunition to get management to do that. They didn't have to sacrifice a year of pay. And no, it won't be forgotten or forgiven!

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lawsuit filed by the furloughed pilots against the IBT for this if the union is successful in blocking the VSP for unfairly representing the pilots going on furlough. If I am furloughed and my VSP is denied because of this I know I would, and I would seek more than one years' salary for damages.
 
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doh

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And they will lose the lawsuit. Because your premise is dead wrong. I'm not calling you any names or anything of the sort, but you are dead wrong. You are blaming the wrong group, for the wrong reasons. And by doing so, you are deliberately sowing disunity. And that is dead wrong. And no, it was not wrong on our representative's part to insist on negotiations for a separation program. It was the only correct thing to do. And it is legally correct. So any lawsuit (isn't that Florian's little buttbuddy airhead no's idea?) will fail miserably.
 

doh

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Here's what would have happened if our reps had accepted the vsp. Management would have said not enough people accepted it, and they would have furloughed anyway. This is a political act on management's part. They are hell bent on causing as much pain and stress to the pilots as they can. So no matter what had happened, they would have put people on the street.
 

Mach94

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Says you. We will find out won't we? And what do you say when the company starts making those payments anyway until a judge stops them from doing so? That this was their plan all along? How convenient.

As for the disunity, look around you. The disunity you speak of didn't start until the union started trying to take money from the pilots. You can't expect union solidarity from guys you are taking $100k right out of their pockets for BS political, strategical reasons that do not benefit those now without a job. That's completely on the union. Cause and effect.
 
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shanes123

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DOH you don't know what would have happened and if that did happen all the better for the Union. Then the union could have sat back and said " Look we tried to work with the company we agreed to their poor excuse of a VSP and they still can't run this company properly" That may have built up some trust among these stupid pilots. But any chance of that is now lost. How KR outplayed the union on this is mind boggling.
 

doh

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Shanes, you're doing exactly what you accuse the Flexjet pilots of doing. Really?
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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So on Friday, the company told the union negotiators that they were unable to schedule any meetings for the following week. Naturally the negotiators went home to await the company response. On Sunday night the company said they would only be available on that Monday. Of course the negotiators were unable to get back that quick, so in their deposition, in federal court, the company claimed it was the union's fault for not meeting.
 

shanes123

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I am doing what I always do. Calling it as I see it. I support the union 99% of the time. And if there was a union vote today it would still be a yes vote for me. But the VSP was handled wrong. And it has damaged this group for what I fear is beyond repair. The union leaders need to admit the mistake and fix it. The VUH board has fell all but silent probably because people are afraid to say something was handled wrong on that board. Bottom line is nobody is right 100% of the time. But admitting a mistake goes a lot farther then trying to argue it and try to convince everyone else you are right. Especially when 40 pilots on the street and another 550+ sit and watch.
 

Mach94

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When has the union ever admitted they made a mistake? Never. Just like the company. And shanes123 I agree with you, the fact that the union can't even admit it only makes things worse.

In the last 2 days whenever I met a flight options crew in an FBO guess what they were talking about? Not SLI. Not about the JCBA. Every time, they were bitching about the union's actions on the VSP and I was walking into a very familiar conversation, sounding very much just like this one. Pilots are worried they are next, and pissed off the union is trying to take away the VSP.
 

shanes123

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I hope they realize the damage this decision has done. I don't see how they can't. What you say is the truth Mach, this has over shadowed SLI, JCBA, and it's taken the heat off those FJ morons.
 

flexpilot

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It appears that the pilots at Flight Options/FlexJet are working for a management team that is hell bent on creating turmoil and infighting within the ranks. The sad part is, it's working.

If Ken Ricci wanted to make it all good, he could. He's playing you guys one against the other with great success.

The Mach94 guy with the recent posts is awfully suspicious. He's blaming everything on the union. I would definitely listen to what your union leadership has to say.

Good luck guys.
 

Dirty Squirrel

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I hope they realize the damage this decision has done. I don't see how they can't. What you say is the truth Mach, this has over shadowed SLI, JCBA, and it's taken the heat off those FJ morons.

Soooo the FJ guys are morons, but who is eating each other here?
 

Mach94

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It appears that the pilots at Flight Options/FlexJet are working for a management team that is hell bent on creating turmoil and infighting within the ranks. The sad part is, it's working.

If Ken Ricci wanted to make it all good, he could. He's playing you guys one against the other with great success.

The Mach94 guy with the recent posts is awfully suspicious. He's blaming everything on the union. I would definitely listen to what your union leadership has to say.

Good luck guys.


That's a fair statement, flexpilot. You're right, you haven't normally seen this kind of chatter from the options pilots about the union. That was because for the most part, the union's decisions and actions were predictable and for the good of the pilot group. What you see here are MiGs who are now pissed at a most catastrophic, expensive, personally impacting mistake union leadership is making regarding those losing their jobs. It's despicable. And I for one am listening to the union leadership. I just am not buying their reasons for their actions and not about to just "toe the party line" when such a disastrous mistake is being made. I can't afford to. Not much I can do but let others here know they aren't the only ones feeling the way I am.

How would you feel if you were about to get kicked out the door and lose your job, probably not for the first time, but this time you know the company will probably be shutting its doors and there's no reason or ability to return, could have got a $100,000 check on the way out to help speed you on your way and assist you as you take a pay cut at the bottom of the next seniority list, but the union says "not so fast" and keeps you from it? Think you might speak up about that?

This is a colossal mistake that will ultimately destroy our very union we all worked very hard for as it just bottomed out our solidarity, which was already weakened. That decision will affect Flexjet as well, as now you won't have the solidarity for when the inevitable decertification vote is a reality.

It is very sad that it has come to this and the union would risk everything over something that quite frankly wasn't worth the overall outcome, especially for those losing their jobs. Regardless of the lame excuses the union has given us.
 
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