Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned

[993_Pilot]

I am not painting you as anything, I simply asked what it is that you hate about Kenn Ricci. Since you claim that you do, this shouldn't be a problem for you to answer. However, if you are a troll who is on this message board only to further KR's anti-union agenda, then you will again ignore that question and keep spewing.

So, what is it you hate about Kenn Ricci?

 

[warlord19]

Mach 94, your posts are spot on and correct. That is why you are attacked by Duhhh and other union tools who have no response other than calling you names, etc.

There is NO support left at Flex after this latest fiasco the IBT has pulled off, and a decert vote WILL happen before any contract is hammered out.

Flex pilots have had the opportunity to hear about and fly with FO pilots for a while now, and while there are some super pilots there, the majority are ingrained with the IBT credo of fatigue “issues"(3 to 4 times the Flex rate), idiotic write-ups, and bragging about how they f*cked the company doing this or that. They don’t seem to have any problems with having their “brothers” pick up their load. It’s been an education for many.

I would love to see us vote in a PROFESSIONAL union after the decert, but that’s another matter. Getting rid of this POS that just screwed a whole lot of folks should be our number one priority.

WL

 

[Mach94]

I am not painting you as anything, I simply asked what it is that you hate about Kenn Ricci. Since you claim that you do, this shouldn't be a problem for you to answer. However, if you are a troll who is on this message board only to further KR's anti-union agenda, then you will again ignore that question and keep spewing.

So, what is it you hate about Kenn Ricci?

Ah. You want to change the subject. No thanks. My being upset right now is with what the Union has done to our pilots by taking a year's pay from them and soon to be me. The UNION. TRYING TO TAKE MONEY AWAY. From THE PILOTS. For nothing other than a "bargaining chip." And what did the Union gain by this injunction? Nothing except HURTING PILOTS NOW WITHOUT A JOB.

It is hypocritical because the Union has done nothing but chastise management for furloughing the pilots for the same reason and using pilots' jobs - their lives, their family lives, as pieces in a game. Then the Union does the same thing. That is what i'm upset about. Not Ricci being Ricci. He will always do what he's done. But now the Union has stooped to his level and used those same pilots' lives and their family's lives in a game and trying to take the VSP from pilots lost or about to lose their jobs is nothing but vengeance against Ricci but it isn't Ricci getting hurt by that. It is only the Union's own. He obviously saves that money if the Union is successful. Furious about that. Yes.

No one is looking out for the furloughed pilots in this battle. They are cannon fodder. And those who were already sacrificed are just the beginning. More casualties are about to be had. And I"m about to be one of them. And in the all or nothing battle the Union has now engaged in, it is clear that both the Teamsters and Ken Ricci are not afraid to burn the place to the ground to prove their point. My resume's are out and I can only hope I can get another job, at probably a pay cut, before I get furloughed, since the Union is adamant that I shouldn't get any severance because it wasn't negotiated by them. Sorry. Been a MiGs forever, but I do not support a Union railroading pilots' severance to force bargaining. The only people that hurts is pilots, not the Company, and that does not make any sense. It is greed and a lack of compassion. This could have been handled differently without directly affecting the pilots who lost their jobs or are about to in the next wave we all know is coming soon. Thanks a lot.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I don't get how you people don't understand what happened here?!? Ricci admits he's going to break federal law. He refuses to to negotiate, which he's required to do, with the Union for an LOA to allow for the VSP. The Company demanded an answer within hours of surprising the Union with this VSP request when they were suppose to be negotiating fences. The Union responds with better language and longer terms, but the Company said no. The Union tried repeatedly via e-mail to talk with the Company but those e-mails went unanswered. Everyone knows that if Ricci gets away with this, then the Union's negotiating power to represent it's pilots going forward has been subverted. So spare us all the nonsense. You'd have to Helen Keller not to know what's going on here. I'm also curious which union, besides the Teamsters, you think will suffice? ALPA? They won't touch us. I, and others, tried. Or maybe that silly uniform union, or whatever it was, that was suggested by someone on Yammer long ago. Obviously, I'm not a fan of our Leadership nor am I of unions for the most part. But what I am passionate about is my seniority, what's left of it, and my rights as a dues paying union member not to be subverted by our Leadership.

 

[imacdog]

Looks like the payments to Ford and Harrison have cleared.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Well troll you seem to be overlooking several material facts. The $70,000 per furloughed pilots pales to the amount the remaining pilots will sacrifice if Ricci's end run around the CBA is allowed to stand.
The next inconvenient fact was the Union put in writing what management said they would agree to. When it came time to sign the LOA, the COMPANY LAWYER stepped in, and said NO! This falls squarely in the company's lap. This POLITICAL furlough can be blamed on no one other than KR himself.

 

[Mach94]

F off. You're the troll. Furlough yes. You are absolutely right, that's all on Ricci.

Taking the money out of the pilots' pockets - that was the Union doing that, even after the union begged Ricci in two separate letters to "please just let the furloughed pilots have the same VSP they gave Flexjet." The company did exactly that, and the UNION is attempting to take it away from them.

Unforgivable mistake. And you watch. It will cost the 1108 everything because they did it. Bye bye 1108. It's just a matter of waiting for the NMB clock to run out. And the 1108 deserves it for doing what they did. They did not have the strength to pull that off and it is game over already.

 

[doh]

Let's NOT change the subject. This is not about furlough pay. This is about you saying this is such a sh**y, non career job that pilots should give up any recall rights. You are fundamentally misunderstanding what is going on here. So either you are a troll, or you need a serious education. If management once gets to bypass negotiation to set terms of compensation, WE WILL FOREVER LOSE THE RIGHT TO NEGOTIATE FOR COMPENSATION!! So it doesn't matter if this is the deal of the century for a handful of pilots!!!! IT MUST NOT BE ALLOWED!!!! And if a pilot once accepts this, s/he is forever barred from returning. That means the 50 pilots hand job says are being hired on the Flex side will not be recalled furloughs. You may not be a troll like warturd, but you aren't making any sense from a legal, contractual point.

 

[Mach94]

Time will tell, won't it? I completely understand the union's stance on why they did what they did. It is you who does not understand how wrong they were to do what they did, how selfish and needless their reasonings why, and how they did it. That the reasonings should not have been at a needless cost to those either on the street or about to be at a tune of a year's wages, and what it has now cost them for doing it. The union sunk itself in doom by (attempting) slaughtering the furlough pilots' VSP. And now, whether the union is successful or not at that slaughter, the damage is done. The solidarity is gone and won't come back.

You are right about the dead-end job though. What a mistake it was to most of our careers by coming to this place. And for giving it a chance and sticking it out with a union with no teeth. The sad part about that is that most of us have had almost an entire career of working at the bottom of the industry fractional company. The RTA guys half a career. And are still here. And 10 years of a substandard pilot group with a weak union that has never had any teeth and is only worse since aquiring Flexjet. Sad indeed.

Flight Options is done. Ricci and/or the union will burn it to the ground in this battle, and the holder of the wild card will win, that being SLI. No matter who wins Flight Options is out of business in 2 years or less. Much sooner if Ricci has his way. If the company wins out and gets a decert vote going before SLI is settled in court then Ricci wins and Options goes away and Ricci gets Flexjet without adding senior Flight Options union supporting pilots to his Flexjet roster. What an interesting mess that would be. If Options closes its doors before SLI is settled, then all the flight options pilots are on the street, only flexjet pilots are flying, and the union is left defending a bunch of pilots who can't pay dues because all of them are now on the street. But way to show Ricci to force him to negotiate! And oh yeah. no one gets a VSP. Serves them right for demanding the unobtainable (recall rights to a VSP!). However. If the union wins in court over SLI then Flight Options is still doomed but the Flexjet list will be inflated with Options pilots who had no job, however the decert happens anyway as the union threw away the support they had with this fiasco. The main point being, regardless of SLI, 2 things are now going to happen: Flight options goes out of business, and a decert vote will not only happen, but it will be a land slide victory for Ricci. He will have Flexjet without the 1108, and Flight Options will be nothing but a brown stain on Ricci's underwear.

The union (barely) had a chance to beat Ricci at his game and at least get integrated and save some flight options pilot jobs by getting them added to Flex's list until they showed their true colors and showed all the pilots at Options that they only care about the top of their list, not any pilots that will be let go (by demanding unreasonable demands like the right to return from a VSP... most idiotic thing anyone's ever heard of and has zero precedence in 100 years of unionized pilots) and showed Flexjet that they don't care about what happens to a pilot once he's let go, and cost each and every one of them $50,000 to $70,000 needlessly over a cause that no one but Teamsters international supports. The union no longer has the support to stop a decert vote from winning. And every miserable day that brings more bad news to the pilots will only further ensure Ricci's victory. He out-played us.

 

[993_Pilot]

You obviously have no grasp of what is really at stake or what the union is trying to accomplish here. The union is not trying to prevent the furloughed pilots from getting a package at all, on the contrary, they are trying to get it all spelled out in a written, legally binding LOA. Perhaps you don't like the terms that the union first proposed, but I doubt anyone ever expected that the company would readily agree to their first counter proposal, however they did expect them to actually negotiate like they are required to do by the RLA. What would you have had them do?... bow to KR's will without questioning it or getting an LOA? Do you actually have any faith that KR and his team of merry-men would actually live up to that unsanctioned VSP agreement for an entire year? He!!, they won't even live up to their legal obligations now. What good is having a union if they don't enforce the contract and attempt to negotiate the best for the pilots that they represent. If the union simply caved to Kenn Ricci's demands, they would be seriously marginalized and it would be game over already. It is only by standing up for what they believe is right and for what is best for the entire pilot group that they have a chance. I am sorry that this will apparently hit you personally, and I would probably be pretty bitter if I was in your shoes too, but maybe you could take some of that frustration out on the management team that used you and others like pawns in their chess game and caused this whole mess. Look at the bright side, everyone else is hiring. Best of luck to you.

 

[doh]

Your post count is up to 11. This has been explained to you by multiple people. Your response is to spew the same management line over and over. Folks, don't fall for this. Management is only attempting to set a legal precedent to never have to bargain again. They could have had these very terms, IF they would have negotiated a Letter of Agreement. They wanted to set the legal precedent of bypassing negotiations. They were NEVER intending to benefit anyone but themselves.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

The company said one thing, but when it was put into writing and it was time for the company to sign what they agreed to , they refused. I think OgletreeDeakons ( the new law firm?) is the only one benefitting from this infighting.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Just so I'm clear, the union AGREED in their counter proposal / LOA to give up the recall rights for those who take the VSP?

 

[ghostrider64]

Go ahead and decertify, then stand by for the sale of the remaining assets. You'll soon discover how important being unionized was....

Look up the definition of the word "Staple" as it pertains to merging work forces.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Just so I'm clear, the union AGREED in their counter proposal / LOA to give up the recall rights for those who take the VSP?

Please don't put words in my mouth. What the company released is not what they verbally agreed to. When it came time to put it in writing, the company lawyer intervened and blocked further discussion. Next, the company released the false narrative that it was the union who would not negotiate. The company's offer is unpalatable to the pilot group as a whole. Why did the company try to entice the union to sign a bad deal with a take it or leave it proposal? If the union signed, the company claimed it didn't need to immediately furlough those pilots. So why did the company have to furlough? Lack of vision?

 

[Mach94]

I won't put words in your mouth, but I will point out that you are twisting your words.

The VSP that was given to the Options pilots is the exact same VSP that was given to the Flexjet pilots with 6, 9, or 12 months' severance available depending on your circumstances.

And it was the union, not the company, that filed an injunction to try to stop the pilots from getting that compensation. And the reason was clear, both in the union's letter to the pilots and in the court document itself. Because the company did not negotiate that vsp with the union. And here we are.

And Ghostrider is absolutely right. And when the assets are sold maybe those in union leadership may realize how bad they F'd up by killing what solidarity they had by destroying itself over a VSP that was harming no one and actually was helping fellow pilots out, all to try to force the company to negotiate, which it was already doing with another lawsuit. They got greedy, they lost their patience, they gambled and lost. And we all will suffer and lose the union we all worked so hard to have. Stupid, stupid, fatal mistake.

 

[Praetorian]

You can keep repeating your talking points over and over but knowone is falling for it.

 

[doh]

Because it is a false talking point.

 

[flexpilot]

This comes to mind.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately," Ben Franklin

After reading this thread, it appears to me that Mach94 is either a management tool or someone so blinded by their own position, they fail to see the big picture.

Ken Ricci, is a man known for his lying. Any agreement with him needs to be in writing and have witnesses. Even then you need to be prepared to go to court to enforce the agreement. The only way a group of pilots can do that is with a union.

Good luck.

 

[Mach94]

Just like when the vote for representation with Flexjet happened and the union thought it would be a landslide and was so far off and only won by about the same amount of votes as the guys who are now furloughed, the union cronies attack anyone with a counter view, and are so delusional it will be too late when they realize yet again they were wrong. Terribly wrong. And the fact that anyone would dare speak out against the mistakes our union's leadership has made "must be a management plan". It really is laughable. And rather than recognize that someone who is a MiGs could feel this way, it's just easier to try to point someone out as a management tool with an agenda for management. As if the possibility of MiGs being pissed at union leadership's actions and decisions is not possible. This has always been an inherent problem with the IBT 1108, and why solidarity even at its peak has at best been weak. How can you trust leadership who is nothing but the other side of the same coin as Ricci? "Do it our way or the high way." Even when they are making a fatal mistake.

It's pathetic, and the 1108 - or more accurately, "Onesky 1108" (as not to rope TMC into this) is mortally wounded and like the crew of Titanic, the crew is in denial to that ever being a possibility. Idiots.

 

[shanes123]

I believe Mach is looking at a furlough that he wouldn't have been looking at if the VSP was passed. The issue that I have and lots of pilots have is that the union should have signed off on the VSP it has done nothing but make the union look bad (KR sole intention) and it has caused the union to lose even more supporters. What they need to do is step back and take a look at is that they barely had 50% of the vote. There is little solidarity among Flops pilots and non with the Flex side. Why they feel they need to negotiate a better deal for a group of OLD guys that are choosing to leave and never come back is mind boggling to me. Our negotiations should be concentrated on a JCBA.

The other issue we are facing is that it appears KR has ran this place into the ground again it seems our investors are pulling out like crazy and they can't sell a share of anything. Reports from the office are they are being told to watch every penny spent. Everytime a 10.00 taxi is used it has to be justified. Only good news is all this is happening at a time when everyone else is growing and hiring and jobs are plentiful. I for one am sending out resumes in the next few days. This place will be lucky to be half the size it is in a year. If not completely out of business.

 

[Mach94]

Shanes123 is right. And, as I have been saying the last couple days, the union just put out that the company is declaring surplus on the Citation X and Nextant fleets. So yeah, I'm about to get that pink slip, with no VSP. But wow, we showed them! We filed an injunction to make that nasty management team negotiate with us. Remember what I said about every day that brings more bad news only makes the solidarity issue worse? Well, there you go. We just lost more solidarity. In a detrimental time of crisis where our very company is halving itself, the union had the gall to interfere with the company giving everyone affected a VSP. See the FATAL mistake yet?

Thanks for costing me close to $100,000. And, as shanes123 had said, had the VSP been originally allowed, no one may have had to get furloughed. Still think you have solidarity? Still think, if Flight Options even exists in a year, that the 1108 won't be decertified? If you say yes to either question, you really have no idea what is really going on. That's ok though, because now even more of us will be able to spell that out for you. UNEMPLOYED. WITH NO VSP WE COULD HAVE HAD THANKS TO THE UNION.

I'm glad I have my resume's out. Maybe I can get a jump on the next round of lay-offs to get another job.

 

[shanes123]

Mach actually be thankful. This place is sinking faster then anyone realizes. You are gonna get another job and get on someone's seniority list ( where seniority means something and this place will be nothing but a bad memory) and you will be ahead of everyone else here that chose to stick around.

 

[Mach94]

Sorry, I can't be thankful that the union, for no reason except selfish pride, cost every one of us either out of a job or about to be this week, up to $100,000. Money that wasn't going to harm the union in any way. In anger and to try to instill some pride, the union, in its arrogance, just affected my family big-time. Yes, others are hiring. But more than likely, unless you can get onto Netjets, which although has one of the most solid unions in aviation, you are looking at a 10-year upgrade and dangling on the bottom of their list ripe for their next furlough, which we all know will someday happen. Unless you get on with Netjets, it will be a major pay cut. And in doing that selfish act, the union destroyed itself in the process. LIVID PISSED!

 

[slowtation capt]

The vsp wasn't allowed and the company furloughed now the company gave the vsp anyways but they are not recalling the furloughs that they said didn't need to happen if the vsp went through

 

[shanes123]

That is true Slow. Not defending company. Never have. But this was a wrong move on the unions part. It has done more damage then the Bogus Citation Air Deal. Which I stood behind the union on that 100% But this VSP was a major F up.

 

[Mach94]

I agree. The citation air deal was completely different. And was handled appropriately, and backed by the pilots. That was different leadership, however, than this union leadership that loves to use exclamation points and instill an incredible amount of emotion and poor grammar in every letter to the company.

And just so we're clear, I'm not defending the company either. Ricci is a snake. He has violated the RLA so many times it's ridiculous. He exploits the weakness of the RLA. Up until this latest furlough the union had my support. But it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the union put the nail in its own coffin by going after the pilots' VSP. And now, here we are, looking at probably half our pilots about to be on the street and the union did two unforgivable things in one blow - took from our pockets and killed what little solidarity we had. It's epic. We can only hope that other unions see this and don't ever repeat that mistake. You have to pick your battles and this particular one, attempting to take the VSP from the pilots, was one the union should have left alone. They would have had a union left. Now they just have a bloody battleground, they committed fratricide and unnecessarily took from the pilots up to a year's worth of pay, and have lost the war. Unbelievable.

 

[Praetorian]

Shanes123 is right. And, as I have been saying the last couple days, the union just put out that the company is declaring surplus on the Citation X and Nextant fleets. So yeah, I'm about to get that pink slip, with no VSP. But wow, we showed them! We filed an injunction to make that nasty management team negotiate with us. Remember what I said about every day that brings more bad news only makes the solidarity issue worse? Well, there you go. We just lost more solidarity. In a detrimental time of crisis where our very company is halving itself, the union had the gall to interfere with the company giving everyone affected a VSP. See the FATAL mistake yet?

Thanks for costing me close to $100,000. And, as shanes123 had said, had the VSP been originally allowed, no one may have had to get furloughed. Still think you have solidarity? Still think, if Flight Options even exists in a year, that the 1108 won't be decertified? If you say yes to either question, you really have no idea what is really going on. That's ok though, because now even more of us will be able to spell that out for you. UNEMPLOYED. WITH NO VSP WE COULD HAVE HAD THANKS TO THE UNION.

I'm glad I have my resume's out. Maybe I can get a jump on the next round of lay-offs to get another job.

So did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.

 

[flexible]

Mach is not options pilot. I know because I recently flew with a flex jet windbag (hint) who said almost all this word for word. I used to be the most anti union pilot ever. The red label pay changed my mind. He is wrong. Company played this wrong and many upening there eyes. Now they try to redirect the trend with a few helpful postings. I know because when I was anti union I was encouraged to post. No one ever told me what to say but certainly told it would be noticed.

Pilots see management being the bad guy here. Negotiations start with both parties bringing highest unrealistic dreams to table and pair down. How can you say what union demanded when never got chance to negotatiate? My p2p said all union cared about was knowing who applied and order they were selected by seniority. Company never even responded. So how can you say what loa or whatever was what would have been?

Pilots starting to see it will always be Kenns way or no way. No one likes that as an answer mach. You are wrong.

 

[Mach94]

Well Flexible I have no doubt someone at Flex said everything I said word for word. I know and have talked with quite a few of the pilots on furlough and they feel the exact same way I do. However, I can assure you, I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore? And, on top of that, the whole "career expectations" thing would then of course be very good grounds for another law suit that would get rid of the DOH integration the union has done. So yeah. Not a flex pilot.

Look, I do not deny that Flexjet needs a union. In fact, Ricci's actions prove that you need one. My whole point is i'm pissed that the union did the exact worse thing they could do, to destroy the solidarity we had. And took from the pilots now without a job, and the probably 100 or so more that are now going to follow post haste, which will positively include yours truly. And because of the reasons I stated in the above paragraph, you can bet that a decert vote will happen. Ricci out-played our impulsive, emotional union leadership and gave the union the perfect bait they couldn't pass up. It's infuriating. And as a MiGs we are helpless but to sit and now watch the ship go down holding and shaking our heads.