F9/RAH meeting

[Hose A. Jiminez]

copied from a couple other forums:


Heard from my friend (shuttle plilot with R) about meeting last week between RAH management and F9 Reps. The meeting only lasted a few minutes. The guy running the meeting was Republics' COO. Told F9 reps that there was no fence in place to protect Frontier Pillots.

Frontier demanded seniority integration and fence they were promissed by Bedford. Argument started in which RAH reps were no $hit yelling at F9. Frontier reps quietly got up and walked out of meeting.

After F9 left, I guess Republic management started talking about time table for Airbus to 190's conversion. My buddy also said the jets would likely be modified (just like the others) to keep them below 100 seat capacity. The company MEL's a single seat belt and removes it from the last row of the airplane.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

1. Did this really happen?

2. I know it couldnt be done thru MEL, but does RAH really keep aircraft under 100 seats for contract payrate purposes? (that was indicated in later posts)

 

[Skybus]

F9

Guess the sound of a stapler would sound pretty good about now??

Once upon a time there was a little airline called Muse. SW decided they did not wish to have a competitor in their home "fortress" of Love Field. So.. Herb in the boys decided they would buy and eliminate the competition. Sat down with the "boys" at Muse to discuss an "integration" ie: staple job but a job none the less at a much more stable company with a higher pay rate. Well the Muse boys would have none of that. Thought they were in a position of power holding out for an integrated list. Well the rest is history. How did THAT work out for Muse? How will this work out for the F9 folks? Only time will tell but me thinks a very similar fate.

There was once an Ole geezer from AMA running for Gov. of the Republic of Texas. As he so famously stated which lost him the election...

If it is inevitable.....lay down and enjoy it.

Bus

 

[StaySeated]

copied from a couple other forums:


Heard from my friend (shuttle plilot with R) about meeting last week between RAH management and F9 Reps. The meeting only lasted a few minutes. The guy running the meeting was Republics' COO. Told F9 reps that there was no fence in place to protect Frontier Pillots.

Frontier demanded seniority integration and fence they were promissed by Bedford. Argument started in which RAH reps were no $hit yelling at F9. Frontier reps quietly got up and walked out of meeting.

After F9 left, I guess Republic management started talking about time table for Airbus to 190's conversion. My buddy also said the jets would likely be modified (just like the others) to keep them below 100 seat capacity. The company MEL's a single seat belt and removes it from the last row of the airplane.

That is a fascinating story, but it never happened. The meeting never happened, the airbus "conversion", the entire story is inaccurate.

 

[SWA/FO]

Everything is going great at RAH aka F9...nothing to see here move along. They will get everything Bedfors has promised them! :cartman:

 

[samballs]

Funny how Midwest pilots thought the airtran deal was garbage. Now you have the F9 pilots who thought the WN deal was a gabage deal. Both groups thought about today and not tomorrow, now they'll be regional pilots making half the play

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

My intent was not to start the "should'a would'a could'a" on SWA/F9. I'm just trying to get an accurate as possible picture of what Bryan Bedford is intent on doing. My concern does not lie with the well being of the F9 guys, but with that of the rest of us in the industry. If this seeming Frank Lorenzo clone is able to continue to piece together failing airline after failing airline, and replace the well paid pilots with his, who for some reason are more than willing to work for obscenely pitiful rates, we are all in trouble.

 

[likeitis]

Funny how Midwest pilots thought the airtran deal was garbage. Now you have the F9 pilots who thought the WN deal was a gabage deal. Both groups thought about today and not tomorrow, now they'll be regional pilots making half the play

Not really. The Midwest pilots for the most part were for the AirTran deal. We saw the possibility of it actually happening because of our knowledge of the managements ethics pretty slim. The MEC jumped on the bandwagon of Midwest management because of their determination that the deal was not possible and by backing management would possible get better results in section 6. No matter what stance the MEC took wouldn't have decided the outcome. AirTran had I believe 3 members on the Midwest board and all 3 voted for the TPG/NWA deal.

 

[Minimaniac]

The meeting in question never happened, but your buddy did sow a few seeds of truth in there.

Our COO does have quite a temper, and has some very inappropriate outbursts in the past. Bedford plays good cop, Heller plays the bad cop.

But remember, fences and all the jazz are negotiated between the unions. Our management will not make the final decisions about integration or fences. Heller can yell all he wants, but it means nothing.

Not a single airbus has been pulled from service, nor has there been any plan to pull the Airbus from service in any quantity.

Don't forget that Frontier has been profitable for nearly 9 months straight, and that was accomplished by using the Airbus flown by F9 pilots. Bedford has zero reason to mess with that. A few planes are being put on different routes, but that is mostly to put the correct size equipment on certain key Midwest routes. Some 190's are replacing Airbuses on specific Frontier routes, but those replaced Airbuses are just working a little further east.

What happened to Midwest pilots will not happen to Frontier pilots because Frontier pilots have airplanes to fly until integration happens, and will most likely stay on those airplanes after integration.

 

[Minimaniac]

Why Frontier did not take up the deal by SWAPA:

1. There was not enough time to work out a fair agreement.

2. Frontier pilots stood a much better chance at maintaining their known QOL with Republic, including maintaining pay, employment, and base (for most pilots)

3. Given more time, F9 pilots may have felt better about and understand the offers made by SWAPA.

 

[N1atEcon]

Don't forget that Frontier has been profitable for nearly 9 months straight, and that was accomplished by using the Airbus flown by F9 pilots.

1. At what pay rates were the F9 pilots at during this 9 months, was that after the concessions?
2. Were you getting a 401k match?
3. What has the price of fuel been the last 9 months? I believe it was in the mid thirtys for a while.

 

[FlyWolf]

Don't know, maybe because I have been burned way too many times in the past, but I would have taken the stable and a seniority number at SWA, but what do I know..

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Again, the merits of the SWA offer, or the wisdom of Stemmler and his buddy for turning it down, was not the topic of my intent.

Whether it was good for the F9 guys or not is moot at this point. It is obvious that it would have been a better deal for the industry as a whole from a pilot stand point, in that it would have prevented further spread of RJ flying, and the guys who are OK with flying them an obscenely inadequate pay rates.

We should all hope now that should F9 be able to continue to profit now that it is out of bankruptcy, that it will be run separately. That will be the only hope of keeping some semblance of livable pay.

 

[General Lee]

I think the F9 pilots won in the end, because ANYTHING is better than having LBB or MAF layovers.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GOULET!]

The integration between Republic/Midwest/Frontier will be about as smooth as America West/US Air.

 

[General Lee]

The integration between Republic/Midwest/Frontier will be about as smooth as America West/US Air.

Don't forget about the Lynx guys. They have more airplanes flying now than the Midwest guys. That may be important when an arbitrator looks at this.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Whine Lover]

My intent was not to start the "should'a would'a could'a" on SWA/F9. I'm just trying to get an accurate as possible picture of what Bryan Bedford is intent on doing. My concern does not lie with the well being of the F9 guys, but with that of the rest of us in the industry. If this seeming Frank Lorenzo clone is able to continue to piece together failing airline after failing airline, and replace the well paid pilots with his, who for some reason are more than willing to work for obscenely pitiful rates, we are all in trouble.

I think you just asked, and answered, your own question in the above.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

I think the F9 pilots won in the end, because ANYTHING is better than having LBB or MAF layovers.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Anything?

Even out-sourcing---> stagnation---> job loss? That's the price you paid to avoid that LBB overnite.

I'm sure SWA would love to outsourse that flying. Contractually they cant.

 

[RedDogC130]

Why Frontier did not take up the deal by SWAPA:

1. There was not enough time to work out a fair agreement.

2. Frontier pilots stood a much better chance at maintaining their known QOL with Republic, including maintaining pay, employment, and base (for most pilots)

3. Given more time, F9 pilots may have felt better about and understand the offers made by SWAPA.

The whole thing was for Gary Kelly to get a look into Frontier's books to see how they do things in DEN....plain and simple....he knew the deal was dead in the water and "stood by" the pilots to look good and make a good gesture.

 

[General Lee]

Anything?

Even out-sourcing---> stagnation---> job loss? That's the price you paid to avoid that LBB overnite.

I'm sure SWA would love to outsourse that flying. Contractually they cant.

We did lose some of those LBB and MAF layovers that we used to have on the 732, but in the meantime we added over 100 INTL destinations (compared to back in the late 80s when we went to LBB etc), and plenty of other domestic cities. And, to top it off, we are currently getting rid of some of that out-sourcing--in the form of 50 seat RJs going away. If you and your company still want to go to LBB and MAF, then good for you. A lot of those resources that went to those cities for us (732s) are gone now, and we are using other assets in other places to drum up potential profits. Regardless, you are still flying there, and I don't envy you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

If it were a one for one trade (LBB for say CDG) then Id be with you. You have a net loss of mainline flying due to codesharing. Fewer pilots on the DAL list. New destinations have not kept up with what you have given away. Great that you added 100+ intl destinations. You should have kept LBB and MAF and stopped the spread of "C" scale pilots whoring themselves out and diminishing your(our) leverage during contract time. If SWA starts service from AMA to Pampa in a 402, it will be flown by a SWAPA pilot getting paid SWAPA negotiated rates, or it wont fly. Thats the way it is for us and the way it should be for DAL and everyone else. Dont pretend not to know that this has harmed the pilot profession. No one can be that stupid. There is no way for you to win this debate.

 

[FlyinGuy]

The generals male ex-lover must be from LBB.....

 

[StaySeated]

Why Frontier did not take up the deal by SWAPA:

1. There was not enough time to work out a fair agreement.

2. Frontier pilots stood a much better chance at maintaining their known QOL with Republic, including maintaining pay, employment, and base (for most pilots)

3. Given more time, F9 pilots may have felt better about and understand the offers made by SWAPA.

Ok. Lets try this again, for the last and final time.

There was no deal to "take up". Period. End of story.

SWAPA and FAPA were negotiating an integration, and the negotiations required an extension from the court along with a modification in the SWA bid itself.

Neither one of those things occurred, so there was no "choice" by FAPA. Even if everyone would have jumped at the staple, the SWA bid was not a qualified bid.

Why is this so hard to understand?

To say that "Given more time, F9 pilots may have felt better about and understand the offers made by SWAPA" is also false. SWAPA made one offer, and FAPA made one counter. There was agreement on several issues, but there was no "misunderstanding" on any of the remaining issues. The plan was for both parties to meet again the next day and possibly over the weekend but those meetings never occurred due to the fact that SWA pulled their bid.

This is like one of those stories that never dies, and the longer it lives the farther and farther it creeps from reality.

 

[GuppyWN]

If it were a one for one trade (LBB for say CDG) then Id be with you. You have a net loss of mainline flying due to codesharing. Fewer pilots on the DAL list. New destinations have not kept up with what you have given away. Great that you added 100+ intl destinations. You should have kept LBB and MAF and stopped the spread of "C" scale pilots whoring themselves out and diminishing your(our) leverage during contract time. If SWA starts service from AMA to Pampa in a 402, it will be flown by a SWAPA pilot getting paid SWAPA negotiated rates, or it wont fly. Thats the way it is for us and the way it should be for DAL and everyone else. Dont pretend not to know that this has harmed the pilot profession. No one can be that stupid. There is no way for you to win this debate.

Ding ding ding! But don't think you'll stop the Genital from at least arguing with you.

Ask him how much of his coveted international flying Delta North is paring next year.

Gup

 

[StaySeated]

The whole thing was for Gary Kelly to get a look into Frontier's books to see how they do things in DEN....plain and simple....he knew the deal was dead in the water and "stood by" the pilots to look good and make a good gesture.

I have seen that book as well.

Chapter 1. Person buys a ticket
Chapter 2. Person presents that ticket to a somewhat bitter gate agent and boards a plane with an animal on the tail.
Chapter 3. That same plane is filled with other people, and the big door in the front is closed.
Chapter 4. Plane makes noise, flies from denver to another city.
Chapter 5. Ticket buyers exit
Chapter 6. repeat chapters 1-5

F9 was publicly held, between the SEC and the DOT, I can't think of any "book" that may shed light on the operation better than the required filings. I only wish there was such a book and that Jeff Potter would have read the thing from cover to cover.

 

[f9cougar]

Iwant a better story!

 

[shearedshaft]

Ok. Lets try this again, for the last and final time.

There was no deal to "take up". Period. End of story.

SWAPA and FAPA were negotiating an integration, and the negotiations required an extension from the court along with a modification in the SWA bid itself.

Neither one of those things occurred, so there was no "choice" by FAPA. Even if everyone would have jumped at the staple, the SWA bid was not a qualified bid.

Why is this so hard to understand?

To say that "Given more time, F9 pilots may have felt better about and understand the offers made by SWAPA" is also false. SWAPA made one offer, and FAPA made one counter. There was agreement on several issues, but there was no "misunderstanding" on any of the remaining issues. The plan was for both parties to meet again the next day and possibly over the weekend but those meetings never occurred due to the fact that SWA pulled their bid.

This is like one of those stories that never dies, and the longer it lives the farther and farther it creeps from reality.

This is whitewash. The reason so many of us have our popcorn out, waiting for the train wreck is that it is clear in my opinion, that Stemmler made a deal with the devil, I mean Bryan Bedford weeks before the auction even occurred. He did it without a vote of the membership. Again, in my opinion? Stemmler had already made the choice for everyone. That's why there was no serious negotiating, no return telephone calls and MIA the day after.

Your revisionist history makes me salivate all that much more for my front seat view of your career getting "loved" by the Teamsters and Bedford.

Why do all the Frontier guys hop around the point that there was a meeting between Stemmler and Bedford and a whole deal was made in advance of the auction?

Did you not know that? I can't imagine that. Do you think it's something so private that you can't mention it? Aren't you proud of it? I mean, he "saved" you by doing this, why aren't you bragging about it?

 

[GuppyWN]

My brother shearedshaft tells the same story I have heard - except I heard it from my old sim partner at F9 who's been there over 10 years.

Gup

 

[StaySeated]

Stemmler made a deal with Bedford? Huh? I mean, do you guys really believe this lunacy? I have read some stupid things on FI before but this has developed an entirely new level of stupid.

How in the F could two people make a deal outside of the UCC? You do realize that there were several members of the UCC, each of which was owed millions, some hundreds of millions of dollars.

Then there is the problem with the SEC and FINRA due to the fact that FRNT.PK was traded until Oct. 1.

Then there is the personal liability that Stemmler would have with a DFR lawsuit.

And what about the Honorable Mr. Drain? I am sure he was in on the entire "secret deal", right.

Wow.

I could go on and on but I have already wasted too much time on total nonsense.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

The generals male ex-lover must be from LBB.....

Almost correct, his wife is!