Extraneous useless radio phrases

[Boris Badenov]

I do it so that the vein in your forehead will bulge. Then, later, I'll get your job when you have a coronary over what other people say on the radio.

I find a lot of the same things irritating, but I've come to the understanding that no one really cares what I think. They don't care what you think, either. Let it go. You must have something better to do with your time.

 

[say again]

They don't care what you think, either. Let it go. You must have something better to do with your time.

Sad thing is they dont!!!!

 

[ozpilot]

In fairness, ATC uses unnecessary verbiage at times too ..

My favorite is "Cleared present position ..." What other position would I be in?

I also like "Climb and maintain ". "Fly planned route" and "assume own navigation". Unless you tell me otherwise I take these as a given.

 

[Booker]

"Cleared present position ..."..."Climb and maintain ". "Fly planned route" and "assume own navigation".

Are those terms not in the 7110.65? (I ask that as a serious question.)

 

[atl pilot]

Its...."resume own navigation."

 

[50988]

Doing aerial survey, I get to spend several hours at a time with the same approach facilities and MAN have I heard some doozies...

"Attention Cleveland approach! This is Bonanza november one-two-one whiskey alpha...umm...I'm going to cross through your sector...ummmmm.....ADVISE!"

Then there's always the guys who need to do creative interpretations of ATC instructions...

"Squak 4212, ident."
"Forty-Two Twelve in the hotbox, with a FLASH!"

"Turn left heading 210, climb and maintain 7,000"
"Swingin' her ta two-ten, pushin up ta seventy."

Heard a guy bust a restricted area after about 15 minutes of ATC warning him and him refusing vectors and getting annoyed saying he knew where it was and wouldn't enter it.

Keeps ya entertained I guess.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

In fairness, ATC uses unnecessary verbiage at times too ..

My favorite is "Cleared present position ..." What other position would I be in?

I also like "Climb and maintain ". "Fly planned route" and "assume own navigation". Unless you tell me otherwise I take these as a given.

um....we don't just say stuff to sound cool. We say them the way they are written in the 7110.65....Its not recomended phraseology.

 

[zonker]

Wgas.

 

[runwayjockey]

I thought that "Climb and Maintain" and "Descend and Maintain" were a direct result of the Flying Tigers CFIT many years ago.

 

[Booker]

"ON THE METER"??!!! ON THE METER???!!

I seem to remember learning that multiple exclamation points and question marks are considered extraneous and useless. Of course, that would have been in grade school, and my memory is getting a little fuzzy.

 

[murfdawg998]

'shortcuts'

I hear ya on the rides stuff, the importance of knowing it and all but I feel the 'ride report' transmissions take up a lot of time on the freq.

However, why do guys ask for shortcuts? I try not to do it myself unless i'm trying to avoid weather. Do they really help you when you're 'runnin a little late today' by saving you a minute or two? Most of the time it's the airlines making these requests which blows my mind even more because they fly the same routes between the same destinations all the time; you would think the pilots would know when a shortcut (which really doesn't help that much most of the time) might be available. I'm guessing that ATC will give you a shortcut when traffic, military airspace, and other factors permit them to issue such shortcut. The quicker they can hand you off to the next guy, the happier they'll be.

 

[DrewBlows]

I hear ya on the rides stuff, the importance of knowing it and all but I feel the 'ride report' transmissions take up a lot of time on the freq.

However, why do guys ask for shortcuts? I try not to do it myself unless i'm trying to avoid weather. Do they really help you when you're 'runnin a little late today' by saving you a minute or two? Most of the time it's the airlines making these requests which blows my mind even more because they fly the same routes between the same destinations all the time; you would think the pilots would know when a shortcut (which really doesn't help that much most of the time) might be available. I'm guessing that ATC will give you a shortcut when traffic, military airspace, and other factors permit them to issue such shortcut. The quicker they can hand you off to the next guy, the happier they'll be.

Gas. It's important to find a smooth ride for the passengers, but it's also important to burn the least amount of fuel possible on a given flight, which usually means going higher, but we don't want to go higher if it means a poor ride. I find the ride reports to get annoying as well, but fuel savings are a fact of life at any airline these days. Same thing for "shortcuts". Just today I was able to get a shortcut which turned a crosswind into an almost direct tail wind, which allowed us to slow down as well. I don't know how much fuel this saves, but if a company can save 1% or 2% over the course of a year by flying higher and getting shortcuts they are doing very well (at least in that regard).

 

[DrewBlows]

My favorite extraneous radio phrase goes something like this...

Center: "Airline X descend and maintain flight level two three zero."

Airline X: "Descend and maintain flight level two three zero Airline X...here we go."

This is my favorite not because it is any more extraneous than anything else but because it's usually said in a tone which would be more appropriate for someone preparing to enter a burning building to save a bunch of orphans. In reality the flying pilot pushed a button while the guy on the radio goes back to day dreaming about the LBB overnight.

 

[dickburns]

Are those terms not in the 7110.65? (I ask that as a serious question.)

yes they are. OZPilot doesn't appear to know what he's talking about.

 

[ozpilot]

yes they are. OZPilot doesn't appear to know what he's talking about.

Hey Dick

It may be in the controllers manual but I'm a pilot not a controller, so its not required reading for me.

In this thread pilots are being bagged for unnecessary verbiage. I was just pointing out controllers do it too. I still don't see the necessity of phrases such as "Cleared present position.. " regardless of what your precious manual says.

 

[floatflyer99]

I have a theory about the origins of the phrase "with you".

I think it started out like this:

A controller is working multiple frequencies and asks you--"bananastand 101 switch to my frequency 1xx.xx" and then you don't reply but just switch frequencies and then call on the new one right away (still talking to the same controller) and say "bananastand 101 with you on xx.xx". In this instance it makes sense and, while extraneous, is a somewhat understandable and logical thing to add.

Then people hear the phrase "with you" being used and think that they should start saying that too because the other guy sounded soo cool using it.

That's my theory about how the phrase might have started creeping in to everyday use by some people.

 

[j41driver]

...if you're up in pca

PCA, huh? It only changed like 15 years ago.

 

[dickburns]

OZpilot, my point is, how can something be excessive when it is required?

we're all pilots, let's use a pilot analogy...you're flying ifr, so bringing 45 minutes of extra fuel is required....but you're ete is only 20 minutes, so that's way more extra fuel, right. some might argue that is excessive, you or I would say it's just what's required.

rules are there. people try to stick with them. it's nothing complicated...

 

[dickburns]

PCA, huh? It only changed like 15 years ago.

yes. pca. it's aka class A, but considering areas of positive control exist globally, yet "class A" as we know it is only domestically, it is still a valid definition.

hairs = split.

 

[Booker]

Well, I've suffered through all of Mach80's annual posts on this, and here's my utterly useless take:

I learned all of my poor radio habits on OE at my first airline. I still remember the lecture I received from the good old boy I was paired with: "Now, ya hear how I talk on the radio. It doesn't need ta be complicated; ya just gotta get the point across. Ya gotta read back the numbers [sic]." He was the type who would contact departure with, "Departure Airliner forty three twenty one one four for four." So I figured that's how real pilots talked, since I heard everyone else doing it, too. And so it began and perpetuated.

Then a couple of years ago I became a big fan of Don Brown and began reading all of his articles on AVweb. Slowly I tried using more standard phraseology as set forth in the AIM, and now it's just second nature for me. More than anything else, I do it just for the sense of personal satisfaction and professional pride that comes from doing a job properly, which is one of the main reasons I got into this line of work. But I admit, I'm easily amused. Personally, if other folks want to be sloppy on the air, it doesn't matter much to me, unless it puts lives in danger. They can roll their eyes all they want when I report leaving an assigned altitude...I don't care.

Carry on.

 

[linder]

When since I first heard about how anal some people get about the "with you" stuff, I immediately started using it all the time just to get them more upset.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

My favorite is:
"JetUSA 195, code 3475." in response to a new transponder code.

You have to acknowlege ATC.

So, when they give you the new code, of 3475, you simply change the transponder to 3475. The next radar sweep, you show up with the code.

You have acknowled ATC via your transponder and his/her radar. No need to take up frequency time with a radio call.

cliff
YIP

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

As far as asking for Direct?

I fly for an airline, and we fly all different routes all the time. Sometimes we can save as much as 30" on one leg, and over 1 hour on certain trips if we get direct.

Also, it makes it easier to not get busted for nav problems. When our autopilots are hooked to the GPS, we still need to do manual stuff with the autopilot, as it won't turn more than about 30 degrees to a new course change very well.

The furthest direct I've gotten is LRD-YIP(DTW) at about 800' AGL on takeoff from LRD.

cliff
YIP

PS-My crashpad mate finished dropping off freight in Yellowknife a couple of months ago, and did a -91 repo leg to ELP!!!

 

[EastCoastLR35]

When since I first heard about how anal some people get about the "with you" stuff, I immediately started using it all the time just to get them more upset.

Ha i hear ya there. Who the eff cares what you say on the freq. Were all doing our jobs, makin the best of it. I might just wake up early tomorrow and watch "The View" and hear a bunch of Bit_ches complain about everything going wrong with their lifes, and I will think about all the people here on FI Bit_Ch'n about a topics like this. I enjoy hearing the "nice personable conversations" when im stuck on a 5 day trip to BFE Kansas. It gives me something to look foward to for my trip home. JUST MY 2 CENTS

 

[dickburns]

Cliff,

with regards to the transponder codes, while technically, you're correct that putting it in is acknowledging it, it isn't ideal for a controller, for several reasons;

when a plane is on a bad code, it isn't very easy to notice, it will time share with other information in the datablock and so it requires repeated scans to check...so issuing the code without verbal acknowledgement is gonna require your attention that much MORE.

if you want to ship or flash a guy, and have issued the code, receiving a verbal acknowledgement lets you know that the guy got it and you can put it out of mind.

if a sector is down the sh!tter and a code is issued, the controller wants to know his transmission has been received without waiting for several radar hits (which, at 12sec per hit, could be half a minute or so until he sees the new code, assuming he has the time to get back to that datablock).

no controller is gonna think of it as excessive verbiage by the pilot.

 

[atl pilot]

As a controller in some of the World's busiest terminal airspace (ATL), I would have to agree with DickBurns. I like to hear a read back of a new xponder code I've assigned. Sometimes I do not have the luxury of time to wait and see if the new tag to appears before I move onto something else. This acknowledgement lets me know instantaneosly that you've recieved my instruction. I persoanlly do not care if you read the new code back (although there are advantages to that in my ability to make sure you heard me correctly) but a simply "roger" + your call sign would suffice.

 

[CallmeJB]

Sometimes when we get a new code, we'll turn off the xpdr, change the code, and then turn it back on. This is to avoid scrolling through some other code that's already assigned, or any special use codes. Recently somebody told me ATC doesn't like it when we turn off the xpdr, even momentarily. Do you guys care one way or the other?

Thanks.

 

[filejw]

Above FL180? No visual separation allowed up there.

Depends on the counrty.

 

[dickburns]

CallMeJB,

Don't turn off your xpndr (unless otherwise instructed to do so). It could cause an interruption in the mode C or target, and a controller might assume it to be an issue on his side...radar outage or something wrong with that radar sort box, etc. Just switch the code, even if you scroll through another active code, if it is only for a sweep or two (keep in mind centers are 12 second sweeps) it will just show a bad code, which is better than nothing at all, I would guess.

 

[willNOTfly4free]

Sometimes when we get a new code, we'll turn off the xpdr, change the code, and then turn it back on. This is to avoid scrolling through some other code that's already assigned, or any special use codes. Recently somebody told me ATC doesn't like it when we turn off the xpdr, even momentarily. Do you guys care one way or the other?

I've heard of other pilots doing that same thing, but I have not made it a habit. Until there is an Advisory Circular or change to the FAR/AIM that tells me it is okay to turn off my transponder momentarily in flight without ATC's approval, I will abide by the AIM.

e. Code Changes
1. When making routine code changes, pilots should avoid inadvertent selection of Codes 7500, 7600 or 7700 thereby causing momentary false alarms at automated ground facilities. For example, when switching from Code 2700 to Code 7200, switch first to 2200 then to 7200, NOT to 7700 and then 7200. This procedure applies to nondiscrete Code 7500 and all discrete codes in the 7600 and 7700 series (i.e., 7600-7677, 7700-7777) which will trigger special indicators in automated facilities. Only nondiscrete Code 7500 will be decoded as the hijack code.
2. Under no circumstances should a pilot of a civil aircraft operate the transponder on Code 7777. This code is reserved for military interceptor operations.
3. Military pilots operating VFR or IFR within restricted/warning areas should adjust their transponders to Code 4000 unless another code has been assigned by ATC.