Ex-United pilots weigh future without pension

[Big Beer Belly]

Andy,

FWIW ... I agree with your last post 100%! With 7, shortly going to 9 distinct fleet types at my airline, it is disconcerting (to say the least) to witness guys approaching 60 absolutely STRUGGLE through training on another fleet type. BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION, they caution the youngsters how difficult they perceive the training as they've aged.

I've witnessed it on the line. Not all approaching 60 have noticeably deteriorated flight skills, but I have witnessed more than a few and enough to convince me the arbitrary number of 60 is probably just about right on. My father retired as a physician before age 60 as he felt his own skills slipping. He said many of his colleagues knew their own skills were also slipping but their egos would just not let go. If I'm not mistaken air traffic controllers also face a mandatory retirement age (believe it's 55?).

BBB

 

[Spooky 1]

BeerBelly and Andy you are right when argue that moving up to new equipment can be a very challenging experieince for the older pilot. Having said that I can recall a number of much younger pilots including myself struggle with the new fangled B757/767 equipment when it first came on the scene. I was use to pushing things to get a response as I had been on the DC10 for a few years before moving down to the 57/67. But, you know what I got through okay, thanks to some young talented instructors and now having flown any number of glass cockpits I don't think that if you put me through another one I would have any more problems than the 40 year old sitting along side of me.

I guess where I work we are kind of unique in that we have some military equipment in our flight department. Supersonic hot **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** stuff that our pilots get to fly regulary, if they have been signed off for such flying. I assume with your reasoning that these pilots should not be doing this type of flying since they are over 50 and rapidly approaching 60, my God call the FAA please and put an end to this recklessness. Also fly a Twin Otter on floats. Can be very demanding for such an old fart. Certainly more difficult and hazardous than any B737 flying. Which BTW, you could teach a 200 hour pilot to fly reasonably well in just a few hours. Wittness all the diploma mills that crank out B737 type ratings by the dozens. I am getting carried away so I should stop now. Might induce a stroke any Fb737ING second.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I guess where I work we are kind of unique in that we have some military equipment in our flight department. Supersonic hot **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** stuff that our pilots get to fly regulary, if they have been signed off for such flying. I assume with your reasoning that these pilots should not be doing this type of flying since they are over 50 and rapidly approaching 60, my God call the FAA please and put an end to this recklessness.

Spooky pal, you sound like an old geezer with a bit of an attitude. All I can say is the USAF does not actively recruit any over 60 yr old geezers to fill our tactical cockpits despite their vast "experience". Gee, I wonder why this teeny, weeny little fact escapes you? But hey, apparently you believe all the Air Forces of the industrialized world are missing out on some "hot sticks" with gazillions of hours and chiseled experience.

From my experience and observations, I will again repeat that I believe cognitive abilities, reaction speed, general motor coordination all decline with age and 60 years old seems an appropriate cutoff for the general air carrier pilot population to quit flying part 121 aircraft. The company that I work for does a substantial amount of its flying on the back side of the clock and circadian disruptions and lack of quality sleep are only compounded as we age. That Spooky ... is a FACT. You old geezers can't run with the young dogs and ought to know when to just lay on the porch scratching your fleas. Getting old sucks, we'll all be there some day, but some seem to do it more gracefully than others.

Remember to soak your dentures tonight Spooky, take your Geritol, blood pressure medicine, and pop a Viagra! Oh, and don't misplace your bifocals!! <g>

BBB

 

[Spooky 1]

Spooky pal, you sound like an old geezer with a bit of an attitude. All I can say is the USAF does not actively recruit any over 60 yr old geezers to fill our tactical cockpits despite their vast "experience". Gee, I wonder why this teeny, weeny little fact escapes you? But hey, apparently you believe all the Air Forces of the industrialized world are missing out on some "hot sticks" with gazillions of hours and chiseled experience.

From my experience and observations, I will again repeat that I believe cognitive abilities, reaction speed, general motor coordination all decline with age and 60 years old seems an appropriate cutoff for the general air carrier pilot population to quit flying part 121 aircraft. The company that I work for does a substantial amount of its flying on the back side of the clock and circadian disruptions and lack of quality sleep are only compounded as we age. That Spooky ... is a FACT. You old geezers can't run with the young dogs and ought to know when to just lay on the porch scratching your fleas. Getting old sucks, we'll all be there some day, but some seem to do it more gracefully than others.

Remember to soak your dentures tonight Spooky, take your Geritol, blood pressure medicine, and pop a Viagra! Oh, and don't misplace your bifocals!! <g>

BBB

You guys are a hoot. Enjoying your come backs and hope we run into each other some time as I will proabably picking your sorry fat a#s off the bar floor. I have been running hard for years and never met a trash haulin C141 pilot that I could not take on with ease. As I recall you were the guys with the plastic spoons in your flight jackets hanging around the O'club. I have a picture of you now Big Beer Belly. Wow! I suppose that says it all. At any rate I never suggested that the Air Force or anyone else put old geezers into their cockpits so don't make up bulls$#t in an attempt to get your point accross as it weekens your arguments which may actually have some merit. I never said that this was an open and shut case but it bears further examination. BTW why do you quote me with the term "hot sticks"? I do not recall using that term, but then the memory is one of the first things to go, I think?

S what are you going to do when you have some old geezer sitting next to you, or worse yet when you are in the back of the airplane and can't get your hands on the controls to save the day. God almighty where do we find sorry pilots like you. I am God, therefore you are sh#t type of attitudes. Gotta go now. If I don't take my Viagra the little twenty-eight year old honey gets cranky you know.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

You guys are a hoot. Enjoying your come backs and hope we run into each other some time as I will proabably picking your sorry fat a#s off the bar floor. I have been running hard for years and never met a trash haulin C141 pilot that I could not take on with ease. As I recall you were the guys with the plastic spoons in your flight jackets hanging around the O'club. I have a picture of you now Big Beer Belly. Wow! I suppose that says it all.

God almighty where do we find sorry pilots like you.

Spooky, you old fart, I can feel your blood pressure rising through the monitor. Settle down, take a deep cleansing breath, close your eyes and go to your "happy place" and don't wake up till you're going to talk nicely again! <g>

PS. Good luck with the misses. <vbg>

 

[Spooky 1]

Your right. Lets stop this foolishness and name calling. My Depends get wound up in a knot when I see your posts. All the best!

 

[turn&pull]

The difference between TWA and United pilots...

Something a retiring TWA Captain told me about 7 years ago...

"You know the difference between an old United Captain and an old TWA Captain? The United Captain has 3 fast cars, 3 nice homes and 3 ex wives and if he doesn't get his paycheck in time, something will bounce. The TWA Captain has 1 old car, 1 old house, 1 old wife and has more money than he can spend."

Specific airlines aside, there is a lot of wisdom in that.

 

[satpak77]

also

when I was "new" to aviation, getting my private pilot's license at the age of 17, some old cropduster at the FBO we all used to drink free coffee at, said that I should keep my first wife, and keep my first house.

also dont try to keep up with the Jones, drive your car as long as possible, and live below your means. "Pretend you can be layed off any day" (almost the truth nowadays).

Southlake Texas: Lots of AA Captains with huge houses (I am talking 500K+), non-working wives whose day consists of get up late (no, they dont cook breakfast, "as if"), go to the gym (not much working out, just socializing), then go to the Galleria, then to massage/spa, then go pick up the kids (in their Escalade/Range Rover/BMW SUV) at private school. Ask them how their day is, and its "hectic, busy, I am stressing out." If the above wives are not prescription pill addicts or attending counseling for some "stress disorder" then you found a rare case.

Meanwhile, hubby is praying the furloughs stop and he can make it to the next mortgage payment.

Think the above is not true? Go to Southlake/Colleyville/Flower Mound and its true 10 times over.

Read "Millionaire Next Door." Most millionaires are self-made who drive Ford Tauraus's and live below their means, and own their own business, probably dry cleaners, carpet cleaners, real estate, etc. Not the next Microsoft or the next Wal-Mart. They also "lay low" and you would never know their wealth if you saw them at the supermarket

later

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Read "Millionaire Next Door." Most millionaires are self-made who drive Ford Tauraus's and live below their means, and own their own business, probably dry cleaners, carpet cleaners, real estate, etc. Not the next Microsoft or the next Wal-Mart. They also "lay low" and you would never know their wealth if you saw them at the supermarket

later

Also, these millionare types can live for about 10 years without income, While the typical Benz in front of the Manor, living it up in style type couldn't make two months of bills without income.

There is a difference between material acquisitions and wealth.... One person is smart the other is...well you get the point...

 

[satpak77]

absolutely

the "in debt up to my ears" commercial with a guy who "made it", in front of his house with a new car and white picket fence, is not far from the truth

being "rich" in my opinion is having access to existing large quantities of physical cash, or at least be capable of producing the above in a very short period of time.

he11, anybody can get a line of credit, buy that new BMW (or lease it), sign up for that country club membership (via credit card), and get a no-payment down loan (at a super high interest rate) on that mansion. Now go buy some Gucci suits (use above credit card again) and put a fur coat on your wife (same credit card). At the bar, go ahead and buy a round of drinks for all your "friends"

Now, you are someone who is "rich" and people look up to you. Do the above but wear an airline pilot uniform and all the kids at the local 141 school cant wait to get hired by the majors.

 

[WhiteCloud]

he11, anybody can get a line of credit, buy that new BMW (or lease it), sign up for that country club membership (via credit card), and get a no-payment down loan (at a super high interest rate) on that mansion. Now go buy some Gucci suits (use above credit card again) and put a fur coat on your wife (same credit card). At the bar, go ahead and buy a round of drinks for all your "friends"

The thing that amazes me is that some folks think having all this crap is actually cool. I like what they say about these folks down in Texas....Big hats....no cattle.

 

[Spooky 1]

Geeze guys/gals. Can we put this string to bed? We have drawn and quartered every retired airline pilot who is living in a big house or drives something other than a 1968 VW. I hope none of you ever get divorced and certainly not remarried so that your finances are all in perfect working order when you retire at what ever age you choose to do so. I think this string started out about some UAL pilot who was taking a hit because the pension was going away. I assume that was both dollars and medical? That is a big hit no matter how you have prepared your you finances. Not exactly something that anyone would want to encounter. The fact that it was being reported in the press only makes it a little more suspect in its presentation. Sounds like we have some real socialists on this board. A few would appear to be very envious of a very small fraction of the airline community that have reaped the big rewards and may be falling back on some difficult times. I am sure none of them will be living like trolls under any bridges although it would appear that some on this board would enjoy seeing that happen.

For the record, I have been married for 25 years and my two kids are grown, well may be not grown up but you know what I mean.

 

[bafanguy]

Spooky 1,


Bull's eye !! I just hope the lesson to be learned from the plight of the UAL/USAir pilots will, in fact, be learned by the younger ones. And bashing these unfortunate UAL guys does nothing ( I do agree, however, that talking about it to the press was a huge mistake ).

People who aren't staring retirement in the face have a hard time identifying with the inevitable, and far-reaching, reality of it. And, it can be a very harsh reality if one doesn't prepare; that prep work starts on the first day of one's first job and takes about 25/30 years to complete. What's happened to the aviation industry lately only makes that planning/discipline more critical.

It's like the EAL guys used to tell us: "What goes around, comes around". Well, it's here now.

 

[PastFastMover]

And for safety's sake, do not allow anyone over 60 to be PIC.

I am always willing to learn. Could you please explain what you mean by the above. Do you have any studies to support your statement or is this just a gut feel. Not that it matters, but how old are you?

 

[Andy]

I am always willing to learn. Could you please explain what you mean by the above. Do you have any studies to support your statement or is this just a gut feel. Not that it matters, but how old are you?

I am 44 years old. In case you want information on my UAL status, I was hired in Jun 00 and furloughed in Mar 02. I have about 1500 pilots to be recalled before I go back to work with UAL.

The reason why I oppose over 60 PIC is because if you allow over 60 PIC, you automatically allow over 60 SIC. Read the accident report of the crew that was supposed to take George Bush Sr to South America. That's why I'm opposed to over 60 PIC.
Spooky1 invoked the name of Mike Melville (63 YO) who flew the first x-prize flight. He did not fly the second. The ground crew called for an abort during the uncommanded roll problems, which he ignored. I don't want someone who ignores black and white calls in the same cockpit as me.
Here's a link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6126386/ (eighth paragraph)
Yes, in public, Mike did a great job. If I were Burt Rutan, I would have beaten him to death with a tire iron. If I were Mike's copilot, I would have gone to pro standards. However, I would prefer to go to pro standards as the captain than the copilot, because 1) I would be more likely to go to pro standards, and 2) my voice would probably carry more weight as a captain.

Too many of us don't know when it's time to hang up the spurs. I hope that I'm not so full of myself that I try to physically intimidate someone 20 years my junior over the internet by saying that I'd pick their 'sorry fat a#s off the bar floor.'
The ego factor alone among pilots is a dammed good reason for the age 60 rule.

 

[Spooky 1]

Here we go again

Andy..............Pleeeze, your first paragraph says it all. This is a job issue not a performance issue with you at least. I have no problem with that just as long as we recognize for what it is, then we can sort it out based on those facts not the perfomance issue that you mention.

I have not seen any accident report on the Glll down at Hobby? Can you direct me to this site? I know that both of these guys were older and this might have been a factor in the accident, but so far I have not had that confirmed as a cause or even a contributing cause.

Probably know a lot more about Space Ship One than you do as well as he crew who flew the two missions. Lets leave it at that, other than to say it is a very big part of the company that I work for. Burt Rutan has complete confidence in all of his pilots no matter what there age in this case. I would not give a lot of creedence to any reporting on aviation subjects via CNN.

Suggest you get over your short career at UAL. Actually I will do you a favor, if you PM I will share with you some hiring going on up here in the NW that you might be perfectly qualified for with your background. PS you might have to fly with an occasional 60+ pilot though. Fortune 100 company with all the bells and whistles.

 

[skykid]

Suggest you get over your short career at UAL. Actually I will do you a favor, if you PM I will share with you some hiring going on up here in the NW that you might be perfectly qualified for with your background.

That's the kind of brotherhood that makes this a great profession. Would you go a step further and pay for my type rating? Now that would be a favor. Thanks.