Ex-United pilots weigh future without pension

[TAZ MAN]

Sorry. But thanks for another avoidance bid prospect.

You are a tool. And clueless to boot.

Grow up!!

 

[Birdstrike]

...In mid-December, the pilots union entered a tentative agreement with United to terminate the pilot pension plan this spring in exchange for other benefit perks, including larger contributions to a new retirement plan and other benefits. It left retired pilots like Bradley and Victor Shumaker of Williamsburg the most vulnerable...

Why was it necessary to terminate the retirees pensions? Was it absolutely necessary or was it a business decision based on priorities? Who's priorities? Seems like the priorities of the retirees were thrown under the bus.

Of all the obligations a corporation carries, keeping faith with its previous employees, the ones that 'brung ya' to the dance, would seem to be one of its foremost priorities as well as the honorable thing to do - since there wouldn't even be a current UA without the efforts over the past 60+ years of the previous UA employees.

 

[skykid]

Why was it necessary to terminate the retirees pensions?

Birdstrike, you raise a great question. Potential lenders or equity investors have indicated with no room for doubt there will be no exit financing with defined pensions. If you take a step back and look objectively at this industry, you might come to the same conclusion that companies with defined pensions cannot compete with companies without them. This is not even isolated to the airline industry, business models in this century don't include defined pensions. Sucks bigtime for those caught relying on one. The question is, will the mechanics, who didn't except cuts in 2002 and forced Ch11, and who just overwhelmingly rejected a 5% cut only to have the judge yesterday impose a 10% cut, walk off the job? I'd say there is a great chance.

 

[414Flyer]

Reminds me of the Delta pilot a few months ago who lamented the fact that his wife might have to get a job, and wondering if they could still afford their 400,000 dollar house

 

[dbrownie]

SWAdude, if you would have clicked on one of the links above you would have figured out that my post was a satire of what is more important than a UAL pilots pension, The Tsunami Relief Fund for people that have lost far more than even you. I know maybe you and some others on this board have been through furloughs and pay cuts but you are now employed at Southwest and have a bright future. These people have decades of ruin in front of them, perhaps they can't feel your pain of driving a car that is five years old as they are walking miles and miles to get to drinking water. And yes I have donated, and I know you probably have also. Yea, it sucks for anyone that counted on a retirement, but lets get a little fu(king perspective.

Canyonblue,

You might have meant well and even tried to be funny. It came accross
to me like you were making fun of the United guys loosing their
retirement. I hope that wasn't the case. Who knows where you and your
company will be in 20 years? Most of us went to the first carrier
that called and rolled the dice.
Dave B

 

[PHXFLYR]

Kids.....play nice and share your toys!!

Canyonblue and SWA Dude;


2 SW pilots going at it on a web board ????....with EACH OTHER ????
What would Herb say if he found out ??? I'm shocked....simply shocked

Can't you just feel the LUV



PHXFLYR

 

[TAZ MAN]

Canyonblue and SWA Dude;


2 SW pilots going at it on a web board ????....with EACH OTHER ????
What would Herb say if he found out ??? I'm shocked....simply shocked

Can't you just feel the LUV



PHXFLYR

Oh please. Like your work group agrees on everything. There are some thread running on AWA that has some bailing from your airline.

SWAdude would have probably said the same thing to anyone posting something as senseless as making fun at someones loss. Just cause they work at the same place doesn't mean its right.

 

[SWAdude]

SWAdude would have probably said the same thing to anyone posting something as senseless as making fun at someones loss. Just cause they work at the same place doesn't mean its right.

Actually I thought the post was so insensitive to the subject that I felt necessary to make sure that it is understood that isn't the point of view of most, but obviously not all, of the SWA pilots.

We know we are all in this together.

The healthier the industry, the more profits SWA can have. The unhealthier the industry is, the more our future can be in question.

Thinking anything else is again, ignorant.

Respectfully,

SWAdude

 

[PHXFLYR]

SWAdude.


Point very well taken. Nobody is immune from what's going on out there. And the losses and give backs suffered by one airline will set a nastry precedent for all the other airlines where pensions and other perks are still remaining.For anyone to think otherwise is foolish . Wishing it weren't so.....


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

TAZman,


Oh,nevermind.........




PHXFLYR

 

[bafanguy]

Canyonblue,

You might have meant well and even tried to be funny. It came accross
to me like you were making fun of the United guys loosing their
retirement. I hope that wasn't the case. Who knows where you and your
company will be in 20 years? Most of us went to the first carrier
that called and rolled the dice.
Dave B

dbrownie,

Bingo !!!

Canyonblue,

You know who these unfortunate UAL/EAL/BNF/PanAM/USAir/TWA guys might be ? Well, let me tell ya, Junior: they just might be YOU in a couple of decades ( hope you have considerable assets outside your company plan; if not, better get busy ).

It's a long, embarrassing fall to the ground from the back of a high horse. I sure hope it doesn't happen to SWA, of all airlines, because you are the last hope to demonstrate that management is the key to the whole puzzle.

Good luck, Sir.

 

[capt. megadeth]

dbrownie,

Bingo !!!

Canyonblue,

You know who these unfortunate UAL/EAL/BNF/PanAM/USAir/TWA guys might be ? Well, let me tell ya, Junior: they just might be YOU in a couple of decades ( hope you have considerable assets outside your company plan; if not, better get busy ).

It's a long, embarrassing fall to the ground from the back of a high horse. I sure hope it doesn't happen to SWA, of all airlines, because you are the last hope to demonstrate that management is the key to the whole puzzle.

Good luck, Sir.

Well said!

I hope the majority of pilots at SWA have SWAdude's attitude rather than canyonblue's.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Megadeath...



I like to think that they do......



PHXFLYR

 

[SWAdude]

Well said!

I hope the majority of pilots at SWA have SWAdude's attitude rather than canyonblue's.

They do. Trust me.

Every airline has its 10%, right?

Sometimes I think out of our 10% that half of them are here on this board!

SWAdude

 

[WhiteCloud]

On the other side of the coin.....an older UAL retired pilot (over 30 years) I'm acquainted with will be doing just fine. In his later 60's his home is paid off, he drives a good late model car and his first and only wife of 40 plus years is still with him and they have a great relationship. His children are grown and make their own money. Personal cut backs will come in the form of less charitable giving and not going out to eat as often. Maybe wait a few more years before replacing the car and no designs on replacing his home or his spouse.

 

[Hobiehawker]

On the other side of the coin.....an older UAL retired pilot (over 30 years) I'm acquainted with will be doing just fine. In his later 60's his home is paid off, he drives a good late model car and his first and only wife of 40 plus years is still with him and they have a great relationship. His children are grown and make their own money. Personal cut backs will come in the form of less charitable giving and not going out to eat as often. Maybe wait a few more years before replacing the car and no designs on replacing his home or his spouse.

Something we all should learn from.

 

[SWAdude]

Something we all should learn from.

Amen brother. Amen

 

[Andy]

You finger pointers forgot something. A large portion of the B fund went towards the esop which went away with the bankruptcy. Also, depending on when you retire, the value of a B fund can fluctuate quite a bit. Just ask the EAL pilots who had a large portion of theirs invested in real estate that was highly depressed at the time of the bankruptcy and subsequent liquidation. Let he who is without sin....

Yaks, you raise some valid points. On the B fund, that was only the company-contributed portion that went toward EFLOP shares. Pilots could contribute to their 401ks for other investments.
On the fluctuation aspect, this is why it's essential to diversify. And as you get closer to retirement, fixed income assets should be an ever greater portion of your portfolio. And whatever you do, DO NOT have your company's stock in your investment portfolio ... no matter how much you believe in your company, you already have a significant stake in your company; get away from airline investments.

My wife and I have been following his plan for about 3 years. Gone from ~230k in debt to ~100k, with big chunks going away every month.

Darned good job, Huck. And I'm sure that you'll attest that the changes that you made were not all that painful.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of delayed gratification. I'd say that you're rapidly approaching the point where you can loosen up the purse strings a bit and feel like you're living like royalty.

All great advice Andy with the exception of the Coverdell Education IRA's. I encourage you to consult a financial advisor/tax accountant and investigate the superiority of the 529's for kids' college education savings. The tax laws have changed in the last few years to heavily favor the 529's.

Big Beer Belly, thanks for the tip. I'll take a look at 529s.

Why was it necessary to terminate the retirees pensions?

Skykid did a very good job of answering your question. To reiterate, UAL will not be able to get exit financing without shedding the pension plans.
For those of you flying for airlines that still have pension plans, take note. They're going the way of the Dodo bird. Legacy airlines can't compete with startups who don't have those costs.

Canyonblue,
You might have meant well and even tried to be funny. It came accross
to me like you were making fun of the United guys loosing their
retirement. I hope that wasn't the case. Who knows where you and your
company will be in 20 years? Most of us went to the first carrier
that called and rolled the dice.
Dave B

Dave, I also read this as a joke gone awry. Like most pilots, Canyonblue has a fairly large ego (that's why chicks dig pilots ... NOT!) and is not going to apologize, even though I am sure that he realizes that his joke was interpreted differently than he intended.




I was probably too harsh on my fellow UAL pilots, but all of us should walk away from this article and thread with a plan to not rely on anyone else for our financial future. I'd love to read many more stories like Huck's.

One last item ... the cancellation of pension plans will eventually result in retirement ages being raised. Sorry, it's inevitable. I don't want to see retirement age change, but congress will eventually pass a change. The question is whether it will result in 2, 3, 5, 7, or more years of stagnation. Something else for every pilot to plan on.

 

[skykid]

One last item ... the cancellation of pension plans will eventually result in retirement ages being raised. Sorry, it's inevitable. I don't want to see retirement age change, but congress will eventually pass a change.

Agreed. I'm hoping the change will come after a long, drawn out trip through Congress and then an extensive study on implementation from the FAA. The longer it takes the better as more and more turn 65. Tick tock tick tock.

 

[canyonblue]

Canyonblue,

You might have meant well and even tried to be funny. It came accross
to me like you were making fun of the United guys loosing their
retirement. I hope that wasn't the case. Who knows where you and your
company will be in 20 years? Most of us went to the first carrier
that called and rolled the dice.
Dave B

It was a joke, and it was not on United but on the 2 idiots in that article that are whining about losing “part” of their pension. Having to drive a car that is 5 years old is a misery, sorry that struck a nerve, and for that I won't apologize for the post. Unlike some pilots, and even a few on this board I did not grow up with the rich airline pilot dad with the new car every year. I did not grow up with money so if it goes away, so be it. These clowns might lose up to 75% of their pension, what about my friends that lost 100% with their furlough letter. They at least got some of their pension, and now they slam the current United pilots for losing it for them. The pilots currently at United are fighting to stay alive all the while those same retired guys want them to take care of them before they help the company pull out of a nosedive. I can’t believe anyone on this board could sympathize with them. We have those few percentile at Southwest also that just want everything to be rosy, so they can cash out their options and walk away with a lot of money. It's all about them. For those that thought I was making light of the UAL situation I do apologize, it was a satire for those 2 guys that can't seem to live on $50,000 a year, for those that feel for the 2 idiots I don't. As far as it happening to us here at Southwest, well that has been a conversation around the crashpad for months now. Many of us, myself included, see an implosion here in possibly 10-15 years unless some things change. I see other groups starting to go the "me" route, instead of thinking of the company first. I just can't believe with all the events in the world that these guys find themselves to be the most important people on the planet. And just as sad there are people on this board that seem to feel for them, rather than the ones who are suffering the most in this world.

 

[Spooky 1]

Amazing some of the attitudes on this board. I am an old fart and in the past there were some great airlines. Real airlines not just some swinging dick that could sell a ticket for less than the guy next door. The hiring was not done via some internet chat sight and while there were a host of chatacters that slipped through the cracks, for the most part they were a pretty good bunch of pilots and had a sense of character that is not always seen on this board.

Story in point. I have a good friend whose father, a medically retired UAL pilot passed away after a lengthy period of illness. His mother who also depended on the UAL retirement and more importantly medical is seriously ill with Alzheimers. (sp)? Basically this person is at serious risk for a lack of health insurance and the burden of dedicated care that she needs to sustain life, not just quality life, but life period. This is just one of many things that can wipe you out financially in a nano second.

Therefore I hope all of you with such insight and life experiences have at least a million dollars or more to assist if and when something like this strikes you or your family. I doubt if there is enough SWA stock in anyones portfolio to handle some of the really sh@#y things that can come your way, overnight in some cases.

If anyone on this board thinks that SWA or JetBlue are immune to the same issues that have befallen some of the great airlines of the past, and not just ones here in the US, but all over the world, then you are doomed to repeat the same failures, although it might be for different reason.

A pretty good book to read is called "Sky Gods". It chronicles the glory days of hiring and flying for Pan Am starting in the mid sixties. Pretty heady stuff that would certainly lure most if not all aspiring airline pilots to believe that they were bullet proof. Witten by a former PAA/DAL pilot.

Getting long winded here so I'll get of my soap box and just say that first of all getting a handle on an individuals sistuation via a news paper account is risky at best. Secondly there are so many variables to life that those who preach are at best just blowing smoke up your ass.

 

[TAZ MAN]

And just as sad there are people on this board that seem to feel for them, rather than the ones who are suffering the most in this world.

You just don't quite get it, do you. No one on this thread has indicated this choice.

Your post was arrogant, ignorant and selfish.

Put me on your avoidance list also!

 

[MW44]

posted by canyonblue:

"Many of us, myself included, see an implosion here in possibly 10-15 years unless some things change."

After reading your previous posts if the above scenario occurs I don't think you'll be getting much sympathy from the aviation community. I don't care who you are, losing 80% of your retirement overnight is a big deal.

 

[canyonblue]

Put me on your avoidance list also!

PM me your employee number please!

I don't care who you are, losing 80% of your retirement overnight is a big deal.

What about the ones who lost 100%. Sheesh you just don't get it.

 

[TAZ MAN]

PM me your employee number please!



What about the ones who lost 100%. Sheesh you just don't get it.

First, I don't work for SWA. Second, you are still clueless.

 

[MW44]

Canyon-

Your argument makes no sense. You seem to imply that since some people lost 100% of their retirements those who only lost 80% have no reason to bitch. Well by that logic anyone who owns more than one pair of shoes or gets to eat each day has no reason to complain. Regional pilots shouldn't be complaining about making 22k/year when kids are starving in India, right? Why should someone who dedicated 30+ years of their life be dissapointed when it all goes down the toilet? Atleast it's better than a sharp stick in the eye.

You come across as arrogant, ignorant, and without compassion. That's a nasty combo...

 

[Birdstrike]

Skykid did a very good job of answering your question. (Why was it necessary to terminate the pensions?) To reiterate, UAL will not be able to get exit financing without shedding the pension plans...Legacy airlines can't compete with startups who don't have those costs.

Yes he did. I have a follow-on if I may... Noted that legacies can't compete with LCCs if they retain defined pension plans...

Why could not language have been inserted to the effect, "who retire after this date." In other words, protect the previous pensioners until they die as a mandatory fixed cost (contracted benefits) but fund no new or additional defined pension benefits (under the old rules) on current working pilots? Was it reluctantly viewed as an item not worth falling on a sword over when facing possible liquidation?

I understand it's water under the bridge now, and I'm just trying to understand how you explain these changes to Aunt Mabel.

 

[Andy]

Why could not language have been inserted to the effect, "who retire after this date." In other words, protect the previous pensioners until they die as a mandatory fixed cost (contracted benefits) but fund no new or additional defined pension benefits (under the old rules) on current working pilots? Was it reluctantly viewed as an item not worth falling on a sword over when facing possible liquidation?

What you are describing is freezing a defined benefit plan. This has been done at a number of companies, where on x date, employees no longer accrue additional pension benefits.
In a way, this is what has happened at UAL. Everyone who has contributed until pension termination will receive a monthly payment from the PBGC. It will just be smaller than prior to termination of the pension plan.
IF UAL had frozen everyone's pensions, UAL would have to cough up an additional $8.3 billion ($1.9 billion for the pilots alone) to make up for the current shortfall in the pension plans. That $8.3 billion would have allowed everyone who accrued a pension to be paid at the rate that they had anticipated. So even taking that action (freezing the pensions) would have caused exit financiers a great deal of heartburn; $8.3 billion of additional debt would most likely be unacceptable.

It is unfortunate that the pension plans will be cancelled, but UAL faces no choice in the matter. It is either turn the pension plans over to the PBGC and hopefully survive, or UAL could continue the pension plans, causing UAL to go chap 7, resulting in the PBGC paying out reduced pensions to former UAL employees. Either way, UAL retirees will eventually be paid a reduced pension from the PBGC.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Earn major airline pay for 35 years. Fly a bunch of nice airplanes.
Spend your self silly.

Bitch to a bunch of poor regional and freight guys who never had the 'lucky break' = arrogant and insensitive.

You had a good run, it didn't work out as planned. Don't expect a lot of tears from those of us who also get n pensions and din't earn all the money you did. Plan your retiremnt wisely, and don't be fools by counting on company pensions.

 

[Mugs]

PM me your employee number please!



What about the ones who lost 100%. Sheesh you just don't get it.

You are the one that doesn't get it. SWA dude reminds me of the guys I used to work with that are now SWA pilots. Guys I might add that were a real pleasure to work with and perfect fits for SWA. How you slipped in over there Canyon....well not even SWA has a perfect interview process. You demonstrate that often on this forum.