End is near.... Gojet gets 1st CRJ.

[AviatorTx]

I feel a LOT of things are wrong with ALPA, but to blame them for these things is NOT a fair place to lay blame.

EXACTY.

Regardless, this is not solely an ALPA issue. This G0-Jet BS is bringing down the entire industry. It is hurting the Teamster pilots as well as the non union pilots by further dragging down wages. Everyone is going to feel the pain from this if it is allowed to continue.

Mark my words. IT IS A MATTER OF TIME before the same thing happens to a Teamster carrier, or a non-union carrier. Since they are not ALPA, does this make it OK?

 

[blzr]

Has anyone thought about bringing up to TSA management that Piedmont won their case against Airways for starting an Alter Ego carrier, Potomac Airlines. I just haven't heard anything brought up about it from any Chit-aqua guys.

 

[TWA Dude]

The TWA guys FEEL they got screwed by ALPA, but how was ALPA supposed to protect the TWA guys when they were being PURCHASED by a non-ALPA pilot group?

They were at least expected to try to protect us. Instead they just threw up their hands and said "I know you guys have been with us since the beginning (Councils 2, 3, and 4) but so long now". Worse yet, our lawsuit contends that ALPA continued actively trying to get the APA to rejoin during the integration. From a business point of view it makes perfect sense: why care about 2300 lame-duck pilots when you can appease 10,000 potential new high-paid members? (This was pre-9/11.) You ask how ALPA was supposed to protect us? How about a major PR effort to start. You know, a mailer saying to support your brethren being taken advantage of by another union, lobbying lawmakers, newspaper ads. Those actions may only have been symbolic but at least they'd have shown some solidarity. But no, there was nary a whimper out of DW. Shameful!

 

[Lear70]

From what I recall (and I was paying attention because I was in the TWA pool), it wasn't ALPA that had the problem, it was the APA.

ALPA basically begged the APA to integrate you guys in a fair way (Date Of Hire) and APA said, "No, thanks, we're buying them and we'll integrate them however we d*mn well please."

ALPA was stuck in a very nasty corner: they wanted the APA to switch to ALPA so they weren't about to alienate them through any negative P.R. campaign such as what you're talking about, WHEN IT WASN'T GOING TO DO ANY GOOD!!!

I'll say that again, the APA was not about to agree to ANY kind of seniority integration other than what they had proposed. So what good would it have done ALPA to spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ on a campaign that's only END GOAL was to piss off thousands of AA pilots?

Other than satisfy your symbolic peace of mind and heart.

I feel for you, I really, really do, especially since, IF I had already been on property and DOH was enforced, I might be at AA (or furloughed with recall rights), but I can't fault ALPA for a sound business decision in a lose-lose scenario.

ALPA has definitely screwed up on Scope issues however AT EVERY CARRIER they represent and now they're paying for it, big time. It'll be interesting to see if Woerth can dig himself out of this hole he's created.

 

[fuelflow]

ALPA must be giving you some very tasty Kool-Aid. You can't blame the APA as they were just representing their pilots as expected. Much more information has been coming to light recently, and ALPA (especially with lawsuits currently underway) will eventually be held responsible for what happened. Well, hopefully anyway.

 

[TWA Dude]

From what I recall (and I was paying attention because I was in the TWA pool), it wasn't ALPA that had the problem, it was the APA.

What "problem"? The APA had a duty to represent their members and I dare say they did a very good job of it. ALPA had a duty to represent theirs, too.

ALPA was stuck in a very nasty corner: they wanted the APA to switch to ALPA so they weren't about to alienate them through any negative P.R. campaign such as what you're talking about, WHEN IT WASN'T GOING TO DO ANY GOOD!!!

DUH! That's one of our lawsuit's contentions.

So what good would it have done ALPA to spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ on a campaign that's only END GOAL was to piss off thousands of AA pilots?

Um, let's see, HOW ABOUT BECAUSE IT'S THEIR JOB! Me and approximately 2299 other TWA pilots paid 1.95% of our dues and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some effort on our behalf. Plus, we paid a $300 merger assessment which could only have been used for an ALPA-ALPA merger, but guess what -- that money sits to this day frozen in an account which ALPA won't let us near. It's OUR money.

Other than satisfy your symbolic peace of mind and heart.

Um, I said the PR campaign was a start. Very few pilots knew exactly what was going on.

...but I can't fault ALPA for a sound business decision in a lose-lose scenario.

That's nice for you, but you see there's this little thing called DFR, duty to fairly represent. It doesn't matter that it was in National ALPA's best interest to screw TWA and perform fellacio on the APA. They violated their legal and fiduciary responsibility to the TWA pilots and that's an actionable offense.

Think about what you're arguing: ALPA is justified in screwing its own as long as it's a good business decision? Well, IMHO it wasn't such a good decision after all. Think about it: if you were an APA member would you want to be a member of a union that sells-out its own? APA still hasn't rejoined ALPA and I can tell you that they're no closer to doing so than in 2001.

 

[Lear70]

I understand completely, although I disagree that ALPA didn't do all they could REASONABLY do.

That's the whole point: once they realized they were up against a brick wall with nowhere to go and nothing they could do would change the stance of APA, they quit.

So you would have them to continue to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars away in a campaign that they KNEW was going to get them absolutely ZERO?

And THIS is the main point of your lawsuit?

I'm not surprised it hasn't moved forward. No offense, but as long as ALPA can prove they tried and had no legal grounds to push further, I don't think the lawsuit's going anywhere. I agree you guys should get that money that was spent for the merger back, but that's about all I agree with.

It sucks, and believe me, I've been on the sucking end of several bad deals in aviation so I don't like it any more than you do, but to pursue a lawsuit of that type isn't "justice", it's simply retaliatory.

 

[ihateyourego]

g.o j.ets

 

[ihateyourego]

hmm, I guess that worked

 

[TWA Dude]

That's the whole point: once they realized they were up against a brick wall with nowhere to go and nothing they could do would change the stance of APA, they quit.

We weren't a Single Carrier yet and they still represented us. The odds were irrelevant. Plus, we tried to file an injuction preventing the imposed integration but DW yanked the lawyer out from under us. Funny, we thought the lawyer worked for our MEC but as it turned out he worked for National. That's called a conflict of interest. (And the AWA MEC isn't making the same mistake.)

So you would have them to continue to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars away in a campaign that they KNEW was going to get them absolutely ZERO?

You see, it's not just about the lowly TWAers; it's about what we can expect from our union when the going gets rough. You seem to advocate a give-up-early position and I say fight to the end.

I'm not surprised it hasn't moved forward.

I didn't say it wasn't moving forward, in fact it is. I was simply illustrating how slowly complex civil litigation moves. There's been no rulings on merit. In fact, the case against the two other original defendents, APA and AA/TWA LLc was dismissed not on merit but on statute of limitations. Ozark's lawsuit against ALPA took seven years to conclude.

It sucks, and believe me, I've been on the sucking end of several bad deals in aviation so I don't like it any more than you do, but to pursue a lawsuit of that type isn't "justice", it's simply retaliatory.

Wow. I'm floored. "Retaliatory"?!!! We know the integration won't be overturned and there's no precedent for large money payouts. In other words, even if the suit is wildly successful we stand to gain very little individually. In true union fashion it's not about you or me but about all of us.

 

[Juan Trippe]

Unions are the downfall of this country. You have the right to your opinion, and only that, but I believe from what i've seen that in the end they do more bad than good. But that's what many of us pilots have to work with now, and there is NO going back.
Enjoy the sh*t sandwich as you swallow.

 

[TWA Dude]

... but I believe from what i've seen that in the end they do more bad than good.

Well, if you're intention is airline management then your opinion makes perfect sense. You're obviously not an airline pilot with at least ten years in the industry. Call it a necessary evil if you wish, but pilots need a union. I'm actually an ALPA member again -- that's how necessary I think it is.

 

[Lear70]

We weren't a Single Carrier yet and they still represented us. The odds were irrelevant.

I disagree. ALPA has a fiduciary responsibility to ALL it's individual MEC's to make decisions such as this. If the odds were 1 in 1,000 or worse (which it seems to me they were), they bore a responsibility to their OTHER members to cut their losses when facing a no-win scenario.

A better solution would have been to be allowed to spend every last dollar saved from TWA member dues and no more OR to lobby the ALPA membership for money to support your ongoing fight or a combination of both; that way members in support of throwing good money out the window in "hopes" of winning the day could do so and those who didn't want to wouldn't be burdened with their membership dues going to fight a hopeless battle.

Plus, we tried to file an injuction preventing the imposed integration but DW yanked the lawyer out from under us. Funny, we thought the lawyer worked for our MEC but as it turned out he worked for National. That's called a conflict of interest. (And the AWA MEC isn't making the same mistake.)

Can't disagree with you there; I've told every single member who will listen to me that if they have a fight with the company that the MEC doesn't seem to get behind 110% and support, do NOT use the MEC attorney in grievance, get your own attorney and make your MEC pay their share of it (it's in the bylaws).

You see, it's not just about the lowly TWAers; it's about what we can expect from our union when the going gets rough.

No, it's not. That's semantic justification.

You seem to advocate a give-up-early position and I say fight to the end.

No, I'm very much a "fight to the end" kind of person WHEN I KNOW THERE'S A HINT OF WINNING. When it's a no-win scenario, I cut my losses and move on, as much for my own peace of mind as for saving time, money, and effort.

I had to do EXACTLY that when FedEx illegally was awarded the USPS Priority Mail contract. Language within the federal government's outsourcing policy states that NO contract will be SINGLE-SOURCED to any ONE company yet that's exactly what they did and we all lost our jobs at Express One, Emery, and most of the folks at Ryan because FedEx wouldn't even offer us INTERVIEWS, much less jobs. Lots of guys got together and started filing lawsuits - we realized what kind of entity we were up against and cut our losses and moved on. Sometimes it's just not worth it to "fight the good fight" when it's hopeless. Holding on to this kind of anger is unhealthy at best.

I didn't say it wasn't moving forward, in fact it is. I was simply illustrating how slowly complex civil litigation moves. There's been no rulings on merit. In fact, the case against the two other original defendents, APA and AA/TWA LLc was dismissed not on merit but on statute of limitations. Ozark's lawsuit against ALPA took seven years to conclude.

And you guys have been at this HOW long and haven't been able to take it to trial? I'm somewhat familiar with civil litigation and can tell you the longer it takes to go to trial, the lesser the odds of winning. Strong cases go to trial quickly because all the evidence is in their favor.

Wow. I'm floored. "Retaliatory"?!!! We know the integration won't be overturned and there's no precedent for large money payouts. In other words, even if the suit is wildly successful we stand to gain very little individually.

You just described the true essence of "retaliatory".

"I'm not going to get anything out of this, I know we're basically just trying to make a point and the only people getting richer are the lawyers, but dammit we're going to do it anyway just to slap ALPA's hand."

What about that doesn't sound retaliatory?

I wish you the best, I really do, ALPA needs a wake-up call in how they do business and maybe this will help, but I just don't see it working.

 

[TWA Dude]

I disagree. ALPA has a fiduciary responsibility to ALL it's individual MEC's to make decisions such as this. If the odds were 1 in 1,000 or worse (which it seems to me they were), they bore a responsibility to their OTHER members to cut their losses when facing a no-win scenario.

Well then we'll just keep disagreeing. If a union is all about letting it own out to dry then what good is it?

And you guys have been at this HOW long and haven't been able to take it to trial? I'm somewhat familiar with civil litigation and can tell you the longer it takes to go to trial, the lesser the odds of winning. Strong cases go to trial quickly because all the evidence is in their favor.

I don't know what your "somewhat" familiarity with civil litigation is but I've done paralegal type work at my dad's law office. Complex litigation takes a long time regardless of how "strong" the case is. There have been no rulings on the "strength" of our case other than ALPA's failed Motion to Dismiss. Of course ALPA will use every delaying tactic possible and we can't afford lawyers high-powered enough to push things any faster.

You just described the true essence of "retaliatory".

You really don't understand. Breach of responsibility is actionable. It just doesn't matter that defending us wasn't the financially smart thing to do. Unions make it hurt for their employers -- that's what it takes to defend pilots. Though the desire for revenge is natural ALPA National needs to learn what DFR means. There WILL be more mergers and if the lesson isn't taught what happened to us WILL happen again.

 

[Ezralite]

A 3 class configuration??????

Yes, all G0Jets aircraft have 3 classes: first class, coach class, and the cockpit is no-class.

 

[cargojunkie]

I still dont understand why GJ pilots are different from MESA, SKYWEST, CHQ, republic, shuttle, PSA, its all the same.

 

[Lear70]

I still dont understand why GJ pilots are different from MESA, SKYWEST, CHQ, republic, shuttle, PSA, its all the same.

This falls under the YGBFSM category.

If you haven't figured it out by now, maybe you're not intelligent enough to be a pilot for a living.

G0Jet as a company is taking flying (and aircraft) that are TSA's and operating them at another company, flying the same type of routes, with a crap "contract" (only the hourly wage is equivalent, everything else is sub-par), and they're DELIBERATELY DOING IT TO TRY TO KILL THE UNION which is currently in Section 6 negotiations.

It's the same thing that Freedom did, and they did it successfully.

Let me ask you a question: do you want to be in the airline business for 10 years and still be unable to break six figures? That is EXACTLY what will happen if companies are able to keep doing this alter-ego bullsh*t.

So if you go to work as a pilot for G0Jets knowing all this and knowing that for every aircraft taken from TSA it puts 10 pilots on the street, but you do it anyway, you are no better than a SCAB and deserve being labeled as such.

No, I know they're not the same thing, but they're pretty much kissing cousins.

TWA Dude, we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree. The only thing that makes your lawsuit useless (in my opinion) is that you're arguing "breach of responsibility" when that responsibility works both ways: they had a duty to represent you and they had a duty to their other members not to throw their dues money out the window for a lost cause. It's a double-edged sword and, going up against the kind of high-dollar attorneys that ALPA has, I wouldn't put money on your case.

Incidentally, I've had a run of BAD luck the last several years and have sued about 7 people and 3 businesses (without an attorney), all but one with success, so I understand how hard it can be to bring a case to trial which is why I stand by what I said. Doesn't make me a trial lawyer, but I know what the judge is looking for and know what I need to present and how to present it in order to win.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA Dude, we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree.

Agreed.

Incidentally, I've had a run of BAD luck the last several years and have sued about 7 people and 3 businesses (without an attorney), all but one with success, so I understand how hard it can be to bring a case to trial which is why I stand by what I said. Doesn't make me a trial lawyer, but I know what the judge is looking for and know what I need to present and how to present it in order to win.

I don't understand how you can compare a class-action DFR suit with your actions. The discovery phase alone is estimated to take a year. Your presumption that the case is dragging on due to lack of merit is false. In fact, seven years is not an uncommon time frame at all.

 

[h25b]

G0Jet as a company is taking flying (and aircraft) that are TSA's and operating them at another company,

If you don't like GJ's, fine, don't work there. No one said you have to like what's going on. But at least tell the truth.

The fact is that GJ's HAS NOT "taken" any flying or aircraft from anyone, including TSA. The aircraft that GJ's is flying were NEVER in service at TSA. Period.

I can't wait till the day comes when none of us have to give a squat where any regional jet ends up. For one thing it would mean that we don't have to listen to people like you telling us how that flying should belong to (insert commuter airline here) and I for one hope to see the deserts fill with 50 seat RJ's so just maybe we'll start seeing some flying going back to the mainlines soon. The last thing the world needs is RJ's with first class seats. This is just an extension of why we're in this mess to begin with. RJ's need to be "feeding" mainline. This is afterall what they were supposed to be doing to begin with. Putting first class seats on a CRJ is something akin to saddling a domestic house cat for a 5 mile trail ride.

 

[Lear70]

I'm glad to be on with G0JETS.. quick upgrade.. 1000 Turbine PIC is whats important to me...

Whore or flamebaiter, which is it?

h25b, why are you even posting here. According to your profile, you don't even fly for a regional, so WTF do you care?

Incidentally, I believe many TSA folk would tend to disagree with you.

G0Jets pilots who know what they're doing to their fellow pilots are a disgrace to the profession. Not a single fu*king one of them will EVER be allowed on my jumpseat, and I'm not alone in that belief. I carry the list, as do many others. THAT'S the only weapon I have in this fight, besides supporting the TSA pilots as best we can.