End is near.... Gojet gets 1st CRJ.

[AviatorTx]

I feel a LOT of things are wrong with ALPA, but to blame them for these things is NOT a fair place to lay blame.

EXACTY.

Regardless, this is not solely an ALPA issue. This G0-Jet BS is bringing down the entire industry. It is hurting the Teamster pilots as well as the non union pilots by further dragging down wages. Everyone is going to feel the pain from this if it is allowed to continue.

Mark my words. IT IS A MATTER OF TIME before the same thing happens to a Teamster carrier, or a non-union carrier. Since they are not ALPA, does this make it OK?

 

[blzr]

Has anyone thought about bringing up to TSA management that Piedmont won their case against Airways for starting an Alter Ego carrier, Potomac Airlines. I just haven't heard anything brought up about it from any Chit-aqua guys.

 

[TWA Dude]

The TWA guys FEEL they got screwed by ALPA, but how was ALPA supposed to protect the TWA guys when they were being PURCHASED by a non-ALPA pilot group?

They were at least expected to try to protect us. Instead they just threw up their hands and said "I know you guys have been with us since the beginning (Councils 2, 3, and 4) but so long now". Worse yet, our lawsuit contends that ALPA continued actively trying to get the APA to rejoin during the integration. From a business point of view it makes perfect sense: why care about 2300 lame-duck pilots when you can appease 10,000 potential new high-paid members? (This was pre-9/11.) You ask how ALPA was supposed to protect us? How about a major PR effort to start. You know, a mailer saying to support your brethren being taken advantage of by another union, lobbying lawmakers, newspaper ads. Those actions may only have been symbolic but at least they'd have shown some solidarity. But no, there was nary a whimper out of DW. Shameful!

 

[Lear70]

From what I recall (and I was paying attention because I was in the TWA pool), it wasn't ALPA that had the problem, it was the APA.

ALPA basically begged the APA to integrate you guys in a fair way (Date Of Hire) and APA said, "No, thanks, we're buying them and we'll integrate them however we d*mn well please."

ALPA was stuck in a very nasty corner: they wanted the APA to switch to ALPA so they weren't about to alienate them through any negative P.R. campaign such as what you're talking about, WHEN IT WASN'T GOING TO DO ANY GOOD!!!

I'll say that again, the APA was not about to agree to ANY kind of seniority integration other than what they had proposed. So what good would it have done ALPA to spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ on a campaign that's only END GOAL was to piss off thousands of AA pilots?

Other than satisfy your symbolic peace of mind and heart.

I feel for you, I really, really do, especially since, IF I had already been on property and DOH was enforced, I might be at AA (or furloughed with recall rights), but I can't fault ALPA for a sound business decision in a lose-lose scenario.

ALPA has definitely screwed up on Scope issues however AT EVERY CARRIER they represent and now they're paying for it, big time. It'll be interesting to see if Woerth can dig himself out of this hole he's created.

 

[fuelflow]

ALPA must be giving you some very tasty Kool-Aid. You can't blame the APA as they were just representing their pilots as expected. Much more information has been coming to light recently, and ALPA (especially with lawsuits currently underway) will eventually be held responsible for what happened. Well, hopefully anyway.

 

[TWA Dude]

From what I recall (and I was paying attention because I was in the TWA pool), it wasn't ALPA that had the problem, it was the APA.

What "problem"? The APA had a duty to represent their members and I dare say they did a very good job of it. ALPA had a duty to represent theirs, too.

ALPA was stuck in a very nasty corner: they wanted the APA to switch to ALPA so they weren't about to alienate them through any negative P.R. campaign such as what you're talking about, WHEN IT WASN'T GOING TO DO ANY GOOD!!!

DUH! That's one of our lawsuit's contentions.

So what good would it have done ALPA to spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ on a campaign that's only END GOAL was to piss off thousands of AA pilots?

Um, let's see, HOW ABOUT BECAUSE IT'S THEIR JOB! Me and approximately 2299 other TWA pilots paid 1.95% of our dues and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some effort on our behalf. Plus, we paid a $300 merger assessment which could only have been used for an ALPA-ALPA merger, but guess what -- that money sits to this day frozen in an account which ALPA won't let us near. It's OUR money.

Other than satisfy your symbolic peace of mind and heart.

Um, I said the PR campaign was a start. Very few pilots knew exactly what was going on.

...but I can't fault ALPA for a sound business decision in a lose-lose scenario.

That's nice for you, but you see there's this little thing called DFR, duty to fairly represent. It doesn't matter that it was in National ALPA's best interest to screw TWA and perform fellacio on the APA. They violated their legal and fiduciary responsibility to the TWA pilots and that's an actionable offense.

Think about what you're arguing: ALPA is justified in screwing its own as long as it's a good business decision? Well, IMHO it wasn't such a good decision after all. Think about it: if you were an APA member would you want to be a member of a union that sells-out its own? APA still hasn't rejoined ALPA and I can tell you that they're no closer to doing so than in 2001.

 

[Lear70]

I understand completely, although I disagree that ALPA didn't do all they could REASONABLY do.

That's the whole point: once they realized they were up against a brick wall with nowhere to go and nothing they could do would change the stance of APA, they quit.

So you would have them to continue to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars away in a campaign that they KNEW was going to get them absolutely ZERO?

And THIS is the main point of your lawsuit?

I'm not surprised it hasn't moved forward. No offense, but as long as ALPA can prove they tried and had no legal grounds to push further, I don't think the lawsuit's going anywhere. I agree you guys should get that money that was spent for the merger back, but that's about all I agree with.

It sucks, and believe me, I've been on the sucking end of several bad deals in aviation so I don't like it any more than you do, but to pursue a lawsuit of that type isn't "justice", it's simply retaliatory.

 

[ihateyourego]

g.o j.ets

 

[ihateyourego]

hmm, I guess that worked

 

[TWA Dude]

That's the whole point: once they realized they were up against a brick wall with nowhere to go and nothing they could do would change the stance of APA, they quit.

We weren't a Single Carrier yet and they still represented us. The odds were irrelevant. Plus, we tried to file an injuction preventing the imposed integration but DW yanked the lawyer out from under us. Funny, we thought the lawyer worked for our MEC but as it turned out he worked for National. That's called a conflict of interest. (And the AWA MEC isn't making the same mistake.)

So you would have them to continue to throw hundreds of thousands of dollars away in a campaign that they KNEW was going to get them absolutely ZERO?

You see, it's not just about the lowly TWAers; it's about what we can expect from our union when the going gets rough. You seem to advocate a give-up-early position and I say fight to the end.

I'm not surprised it hasn't moved forward.

I didn't say it wasn't moving forward, in fact it is. I was simply illustrating how slowly complex civil litigation moves. There's been no rulings on merit. In fact, the case against the two other original defendents, APA and AA/TWA LLc was dismissed not on merit but on statute of limitations. Ozark's lawsuit against ALPA took seven years to conclude.

It sucks, and believe me, I've been on the sucking end of several bad deals in aviation so I don't like it any more than you do, but to pursue a lawsuit of that type isn't "justice", it's simply retaliatory.

Wow. I'm floored. "Retaliatory"?!!! We know the integration won't be overturned and there's no precedent for large money payouts. In other words, even if the suit is wildly successful we stand to gain very little individually. In true union fashion it's not about you or me but about all of us.