End is near.... Gojet gets 1st CRJ.

[flyer172r]

Technically the word "company" in the TSA pilots' contract is never actually defined. And with all due respect to the NMB, seperate websites is a sorry piece of evidence for deciding if they're seperate companies. And while we haven't lost any airplanes (at least not yet, there's nothing stopping them from putting 145s on the GJ certificate once they get that far), we are losing routes to them on a monthly basis. How do I know this. Because routes that I've flown for TSA (after GJ was running) are now being flown by GJ.

The truth of the matter is this, no matter whether you think they're scabs, or an alter-ego, or a fully legal and legitimate company (just because it's legal doesn't make it right), GJ poses a huge threat to TSA and our chances of getting a decent contract in the upcoming negotiations. I still have a slight glimmer of hope that it'll get resolved during the contract (but then everyone will start comparing us to Mesa so that's gonna suck), but I don't think the situation is gonna work out well for anyone involved (including the GJ pilots, you guys aren't gonna get the great contract you think you will with the management team you're negotiating with). The only way this is gonna work out well is if both pilot groups band together, and there's too much animosity on both sides for that to happen.

By the way, thanks to the GJ pilot in ORD a couple days ago who wasn't wearing a hat, had his ID hidden behind his jacket, and had the wings taken off his jacket. Got a kick out of that (and don't you dare say I made that up, saw it with my own eyes).

 

[Rook]

Well, that's just the point. ALPA did NOT screw them.

In the case of the termination from PCL, he screwed himself calling in sick then using his pass privileges to travel somewhere. He MIGHT get his job back in grievance, probably won't because of the way he did it. Nice guy, stupid move, and I USED to feel bad for him and was trying to help as much as I could but now I'm pretty irritated at him for going to G0Jets and won't help him anymore.

PM me and let me know more about this L70.

 

[Lear70]

Listen, numb nuts.... I DON'T WORK THERE. And I'd be happy to prove it if you'd like.

That's about the only honest thing he HAS said in all this.

He and I have debated several things before and in our debates has convinced me he's not in the airline world (although I believe he used to be).

Why he comes on here and messes with people about it is more than I can answer. Every time we've argued he seems to take a stance that is pretty self-serving; this circumstance is no different.

He's in it for him, and everyone else be d*mned. We all have to do what's right for us, but that doesn't mean you get automatic dibs to screw another pilot (or any person for that matter) over in order to pursue your goals. It's called "ethics", and if thinking like a lawyer gets you farther in life, that's fine; the rest of us have a conscience.

Good luck, you're now on my ignore list as you've had nothing helpful or insightful to add to this debate (nor the other two we've discussed) so I just don't feel the need to listen to your drivel any longer.

 

[fliynhi]

I know I'll probably get ripped to pieces for this question but here it goes. Now that GJ pilots are represented by Teamsters, are they still the devils children? The reason I ask, I know people in the industry, both retired and current line pilots, saying that everything should be fine now that they are represented. They are recommending that I send my resume in ASAP and I just want to make sure it's not going to be career suicide. I would appreciate any and all sincere responses. Once again, I'm not trying to stir the pot; I just want to make an informed decision. Thanks in advance to all who respond.

 

[flyer172r]

Doesn't matter if they're union or not, they're still an alter-ego carrier that is going to seriously hurt TSA pilots as they try to improve on their current contract.

Actually, I think getting GJ under teamsters was part of TSA management's plan. The reason I say this is because apparently management asked the pilots if they wanted a union and almost welcomed in teamsters. What management ever asks its employees if they want a union? Go on the frac board and read all the stuff that Flight Options management put out when their pilots tried to unionize. It just doesn't make sense that TSA management would so readily welcome in the teamsters, except that it probably (I'm not a legal expert by any means so take this for whatever it's worth) makes it harder to combine the seniority lists if TSA pilots manage to negotiate a single list.

 

[fliynhi]

I was under the impression that the TSA pilots initially refused a single seniority list. Is this incorrect?

 

[Hamburger]

Doesn't matter if they're union or not, they're still an alter-ego carrier that is going to seriously hurt TSA pilots as they try to improve on their current contract.

Few things make me laugh harder than the dirtbags who get hired on as a means to bust a union and then organize themselves. Prostitute local 214. They're no different than the jackoffs that buy a house next to the airport and then start to complain about the noise.

Just say no to GO!

 

[flyer172r]

I was under the impression that the TSA pilots initially refused a single seniority list. Is this incorrect?

Last summer the TSA MEC tried to negotiate a solution to the problem, but management refused to negotiate with them and instead held a few meetings with ALPA national. That resulted in nothing, and last fall management made one take-it-or-leave-it offer that would've extended a sub-standard contract for 4 years, offered a 1.5% pay raise each year (when combined with inflation that would've resulted in a pay cut each year for all practical purposes), and contained language that wasn't really that strong and definitely could've been circumvented. TSA is now in contract negotiations and if the issue is going to be resolved, it will be resolved through those negotiations. Unfortunately getting a single seniority list is going to cost TSA a lot in terms of potential gains that they had a good chance of getting if not for the GJ whipsaw.

It's not quite correct to say TSA pilots refused the single seniority list, it'd be more accurate to say we rejected their ultimatum-like LOA and are currently trying another approach. The story isn't finished yet, it'll likely be a very contentious few years. Honestly, even if the rest of the industry didn't hate GJ, I would still tell you to stay away from any company run by Trans States Holdings. A lot of TSA FOs who have been here less than a year are looking to leave. I know of one guy who got tired of working at TSA he just quit without even having another job lined up.

 

[SBD]

I know that GJets is not the place to apply. I understand that TSA management formed this new company to get around some clauses. When they were formed they did not have a union representation. Any pilot that flies for them is considered a tool. From what I read they have recently got union representation from the Teamsters. So for someone who really does not know the business yet, why all the animosity towards GJets? They have a union now if I have read correctly. Skywest does not have one but a lot of people say it's a great place to work for. I'm getting close to applying for a regional and will not apply to GJets, Mesa, and other "lowering the bar airlines." Still I want to know why GJets gets the treatment now that it has representation. No flamebait, just a newbie trying to learn.

 

[FlyHIToo]

TSA is now in contract negotiations and if the issue is going to be resolved, it will be resolved through those negotiations. Unfortunately getting a single seniority list is going to cost TSA .........

Explain to me how a single list would be legally possible. Unless the GJ MEC agrees to the deal? Since the NMB has now said that they are separate transportation systems, TSA ALPA would be no more able to force a list with GJ than ComAIR to force a list with Delta, or American Eagle to force a single list with American. Unless all FOUR PARTYS (GJ mgt, TSA mgt, ALPA, and IBT) agree to a deal.

 

[temcgrew]

Now that GJ pilots are represented by Teamsters, are they still the devils children? The reason I ask, I know people in the industry, both retired and current line pilots, saying that everything should be fine now that they are represented. They are recommending that I send my resume in ASAP and I just want to make sure it's not going to be career suicide. I would appreciate any and all sincere responses. Once again, I'm not trying to stir the pot; I just want to make an informed decision. Thanks in advance to all who respond.

It wouldn't be that bad, but you would have to go and personally talk to all of the pilots out there who have hard feelings about G0JET and tell them that everything is now fine and they should get over it. This is not just TSA pilots, the hard part would be trying to do this BEFORE you tried to jumpseat to work.

 

[flyer172r]

Explain to me how a single list would be legally possible. Unless the GJ MEC agrees to the deal? Since the NMB has now said that they are separate transportation systems, TSA ALPA would be no more able to force a list with GJ than ComAIR to force a list with Delta, or American Eagle to force a single list with American. Unless all FOUR PARTYS (GJ mgt, TSA mgt, ALPA, and IBT) agree to a deal.

Thank you for proving my point about how TSA management wanted GJ to be Teamsters. Having two pilot groups that can't be combined is great for them. Can you say whipsaw? Don't think you're not immune from it.

 

[Lear70]

The Freedom Air people used to do the same thing, wouldn't speak to other pilots in the hotel bar, wouldn't go NEAR any other pilots in the terminal in uniform, and would often lie about their status trying to get on a jumpseat.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it probably ain't a swan.

G0Jets may get away with it legally, but everyone knows what they are, what they're doing, and that it's ethically and morally wrong.

To argue differently just shows your lack in those departments.

 

[smokey999]

Explain to me how a single list would be legally possible. Unless the GJ MEC agrees to the deal? Since the NMB has now said that they are separate transportation systems, TSA ALPA would be no more able to force a list with GJ than ComAIR to force a list with Delta, or American Eagle to force a single list with American. Unless all FOUR PARTYS (GJ mgt, TSA mgt, ALPA, and IBT) agree to a deal.

Uhhh wrong again. If TSA Holdings wants the lists merged all they have to do is merge the companies. Then just like any other merger, the lists would be integrated, how this is done of course, is negotiated by the unions. Now we know this would not happen as long as TSA is flying for American. My point is that we are all at the mercy of the company, they can, and will do whatever benifets them most. If you disagree, you are just plain ignorant.

 

[f/o(forever)]

Unless all FOUR PARTYS (GJ mgt, TSA mgt, ALPA, and IBT) agree to a deal.

GJ mgt and TSA mgt ARE THE SAME! Some one tell me how this is not the case! GJ is in the same building that TSA is in. This building is the old TWA training center in STL, Now owned By whom?! AMERICAN!! The very scope that GJ was initially started to circumvent! But no all you seperate company coolaid drinkers keep drinking!! Seperate web sites DOES NOT MAKE SEPERATE COMPANIES!!

 

[FlyHIToo]

GJ mgt and TSA mgt ARE THE SAME! Some one tell me how this is not the case! GJ is in the same building that TSA is in.

Have you ever been DAL Holding or to AMR their mgt is in the same buildings some in cubicles next to each other. Most the upper mgnt (VP Level) is in the holding company.

This building is the old TWA training center in STL, Now owned By whom?AMERICAN!!

WRONG. That building is owned by the city. AMR sold it in October 2005.

The very scope that GJ was started to circumvent!

You are CORRECT here. So was Shuttle America/Republic.

But no all you seperate company coolaid drinkers keep drinking!! Seperate web sites DOES NOT MAKE SEPERATE COMPANIES!!

Read pages 36, 37, 38, 39. There many more reasons then a website that the NMB found them to be separate carries.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

f/o(forever).... you will be an FO FOREVER because you are the one drinking the cool-aid and DO NOT THINK for yourself. Just look at what you just posted, all half truthes and rumors. Get the facts. Make dicisions based on your own research and not what others tell you to be true/facts.

 

[redbook]

f/o(forever).... you will be an FO FOREVER because you are the one drinking the cool-aid and DO NOT THINK for yourself. Just look at what you just posted, all half truthes and rumors. Get the facts. Make dicisions based on your own research and not what others tell you to be true/facts.

RESEARCH? that doesn't change anything. don't complicate the issues. But you want some basic research here you go. You guys only have a union, in order to be a union busting tool.

It might be almost a year old, but still accurate, unlike your attempts to muddy the waters.

ALPA President to Trans States Management: We'll Cooperate, but We're Not Backing Down
ST LOUIS, MO - The head of the union that represents pilots at St. Louis-based Trans States Airlines today told pilots at a rally at Lambert Airport that the union is taking a carrot-and-stick approach to resolving labor issues at the airline.
"I have come here today to personally issue a public challenge to your management to alter the course that they have taken in dealing with their pilots," said Capt. Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, International, in remarks prepared for the rally.
"I have come to challenge them to work cooperatively with our union to help build this airline for the future. And I have come to offer to help promote new business opportunities for this airline and new job opportunities for its ALPA pilots. I am convinced that, together, we can build Trans States into a strong, solid company for decades to come," Woerth said.
"I have also come here to draw public attention to the fact that, sadly, our efforts to discuss the issues before us in cooperation with the company have, to date, met with little to no success. Using only the most tenuous thread of justification, Trans States management has sought to create an alter-ego carrier that they intend to staff with pilots not sheltered by an ALPA-bargained contract," he said.
"In response to this tactic, we have been forced to file a grievance concerning this alter-ego carrier, because management has made it clear that ************************* exists solely to evade ALPA and the TSA-ALPA agreement. The clearest proof? Management's premature and illegal attempt to install a separate union before ************************* employs any pilots or begins operations. While management's public claim that a contractual restriction makes it impossible to extend the ALPA contract to larger jets, I assure you that we can readily overcome this very common obstacle," Woerth said.
"The management at Trans States has concluded that they have some strong opportunities for growth of their company-in new sectors, in new markets, on new routes, and flying for new carriers. I applaud that vision. I salute it. That being said, I insist that the Air Line Pilots Association and the pilots we represent play our legitimate role in tangibly contributing to that growth. There is absolutely no justifiable reason to create an alter-ego carrier or a carrier that is 'walled off' from our pilots, whose sacrifices and hard work have built this company. ************************* may indeed be a viable operation moving forward-but only with our pilots in those cockpits," he said.
"Unfortunately, time is running out, because the management team at TSA has decided to do more than just stop talking to our pilots and their representatives. They have made the unfortunate - and potentially devastating - decision to crack down on our union and our union representatives here in St. Louis and elsewhere," he said.
"Standing right here with me today are two good ALPA representatives-officers who put their necks on the line for their brothers and sisters-who have recently been unjustifiably fired by TSA. The Executive Council of our International union was so outraged by these maneuvers that it recently voted to make these fired pilots financially whole until they are rightfully returned to their cockpits. That's what being union is all about. I will not tolerate attacks on, or interference with, our union representatives-pilots or employees-simply because they are members or staff of this union," Woerth said.
"The climate here at Trans States Airlines does not need to be poisoned. We can start fresh today - if management accepts our offered hand and alters their course of action. If they make that change, we can build a better airline and a better environment for the future," he said.

 

[FlyHIToo]

REDBOOK,
That speach was given in the Spring of 2005. That was the last time Worth spoke publicly on the GJ matter. After TSA MEC fail to secure the flying and the NMB ruling, ALPA national has not addressed the issue they know there is no point, they even tried to organize GJ pilots.

ALPA lost this one because of a hard headed MEC. End of story.

 

[redbook]

REDBOOK,
That speach was given in the Spring of 2005. That was the last time Worth spoke publicly on the GJ matter. After TSA MEC fail to secure the flying and the NMB ruling, ALPA national has not addressed the issue they know there is no point, they even tried to organize GJ pilots.

ALPA lost this one because of a hard headed MEC. End of story.

You are correct that Duane has been mostly silent, that is just evidence of a failure to show leadership and follow up on the basic truths that he stated last may.

Hard headed mec? 75% said no to a horrible ultimatum put forth by tsa management with an assist from people like you. The only loss in this is the g0jet pilots careers. That is why you are fighting so hard to confuse the issues.

 

[f/o(forever)]

Origianlly posted by flyHIToo
f/o(forever).... you will be an FO FOREVER because you are the one drinking the cool-aid and DO NOT THINK for yourself. Just look at what you just posted, all half truthes and rumors. Get the facts.

Whose making assumptions now? I never said I was an f/o!! In the airlines for 6 years, no reason to change my sign in! Beside it's fun to see people make STUPID assumptions!! How about these facts, GJ gom made by a tsa f/o on reserve!! All GJ start up people worked at TSA prior to "GJ " becoming seperate! But I understand your trying to justify your actions, I just don't understand why GJ pilots hide their ID's and all walk together in ord. If you feel so good about being a GJ pilot then grow some *****!! COME OUT OF THE CLOSET!! I've come to see "in life" that guilty people ACT GUILTY!!!

 

[FlyHIToo]

Whose making assumptions now? I never said I was an f/o!! In the airlines for 6 years, no reason to change my sign in!

f/o(forever)..... it says you have been a member snice JAN 2006.

I just don't understand why GJ pilots hide their ID's and all walk together in ord. If you feel so good about being a GJ pilot then grow some *****!! COME OUT OF THE CLOSET!! I've come to see "in life" that guilty people ACT GUILTY!!!

I still don't know what you a talking about. I have watched people walk around ORD. I don't ever see anyone hiding any ID's. Yes sometime IDs are hard to see. They flop around on lanyards, I see gate agents, pilots from every airline, rampers, and wheelchair pusher with IDs that have flopped backwards. But these mysterious GJ pilots hiding their IDs and uniform brass, I just don't see.

I see more MESA pilots walking around ORD in all types get ups, from nonstandard jackets to sweaters to windbreakers while toting backpacks, they seem to be hiding more and seem less professional than any GJ pilot.

f/o(forever)..... I am letting you have the lastword.... Just grow up....

 

[NoJoy]

GO-Jets="He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named."

 

[f/o(forever)]

Originally posted by FlyHIToo
f/o(forever)..... it says you have been a member snice JAN 2006.

Member of this board "snice" JAN 2006, Member of other boards Longer! Or is this the only board??!

Originally posted by FlyHIToo
I still don't know what you a talking about. I have watched people walk around ORD. I don't ever see anyone hiding any ID's. Yes sometime IDs are hard to see. They flop around on lanyards, I see gate agents, pilots from every airline, rampers, and wheelchair pusher with IDs that have flopped backwards. But these mysterious GJ pilots hiding their IDs and uniform brass, I just don't see.

So your saying It's a case of the flopping ID's?

Originally posted by FlyHIToo
I see more MESA pilots walking around ORD in all types get ups, from nonstandard jackets to sweaters to windbreakers while toting backpacks, they seem to be hiding more and seem less professional than any GJ pilot.

I don't know if I've seen any GJ pilots in the airport, they hide. I'VE SEEN THEM HIDING!! And if you want to talk about professionalism, lets talk about all the whining that GJ pilots are doing about being "blocked" on the frequencies. I hear other airlines being blocked daily but don't hear them complaining!!