Effective date for age 65

[Andy]

A long study was just completed that found airline pilots actually live longer than the rest of society after retirement...

... yet you fail to provide a link or any details about this study.

Let me counter: A long study was just completed that found airline pilots have a shorter lifespan than the rest of society.
True? False? I don't know and I don't offer up any proof one way or the other. And neither did you.
And what does life expectancy after retirement have to do with safety?

How about this one? "Since ICAO increased pilot age to 65, the incidence of pilots over the age of 55 suffering serious medical emergencies while on duty has increased exponentially for at least one airline." I think that it wouldn't be too hard to prove this statement correct. And pilot incapacitation does have a negative impact on the safe operation of commercial aircraft.

 

[tailhookah]

Andy... it took me awhile to find it.

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA292060

Pay close attention to the graphs where the American pilots are shown to have lived much longer than general society after retirement and also to conclusion where it says the same in Black and White....

Now I've shown you mine.... please either find a link for me where you refute this or go away.... I just show the facts and not B/S!

Tail

 

[tailhookah]

Andy wrote:

... yet you fail to provide a link or any details about this study.

Let me counter: A long study was just completed that found airline pilots have a shorter lifespan than the rest of society.
True? False? I don't know and I don't offer up any proof one way or the other. And neither did you.
And what does life expectancy after retirement have to do with safety?

How about this one? "Since ICAO increased pilot age to 65, the incidence of pilots over the age of 55 suffering serious medical emergencies while on duty has increased exponentially for at least one airline." I think that it wouldn't be too hard to prove this statement correct. And pilot incapacitation does have a negative impact on the safe operation of commercial aircraft.

Here Andy... You ask and I answer.... remember Andy just the facts!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/26/BAGE0O9B1810.DTL

Put that in your hookah and smoke it!

Tailhookah

PS-Now Andy either prove your exponential increase of pilot incapacitation or STFup! I tire of guys like you who spout b/s on this board and then can't back it up. Now the ball's in your court... can you play or did you go home?

 

[GuppyWN]

A long study was just completed that found airline pilots actually live longer than the rest of society after retirement...

Your link wouldn't work for me. Does the study show age of death or years lived in retirement? Just curious since those two are significantly different for age 60 airline pilots.

Gup

 

[tailhookah]

Do a google search for: longevity and survival study for retired airline pilots

and then click on the url address near the begining of the document...

tail

ps-it's an FAA study dated 1995.

 

[Andy]

A long study was just completed that found airline pilots actually live longer than the rest of society after retirement...

The study that you posted was published in 1995. Perhaps you and I have a different concept of 'just completed;' a greater than ten year old report is not what I would consider fresh.
Did you take the time to read the report? The statistical sampling used was for pilots who retired from American Airlines between 1968 and 1993. The work conditions for pilots have changed considerably since that timeframe.
How about the study's objective? The purpose of the study was to prove or disprove the theory that pilots have a shorter lifespan than the rest of society.
At no point does the study address pilots' ability to safely operate aircraft and therefore the study has no practical application to the discussion at hand.

 

[Andy]

PS-Now Andy either prove your exponential increase of pilot incapacitation or STFup! I tire of guys like you who spout b/s on this board and then can't back it up. Now the ball's in your court... can you play or did you go home?

Continental Airlines.

 

[Andy]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/26/BAGE0O9B1810.DTL

"At the same time, the older pilots generally had lower scores than younger pilots in the same skill category."

Lower scores, but they did better? Um, ok. One of those new age studies. I'd love to read the full 'scientific' study.

Quite simply, the study proves that there are age related performance declines. For the age groups studied, the younger pilots showed a greater negative deviation from baseline than their senior counterparts. However, there was a measurable age-related performance decline for all age groups.
Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[sleeves]

Continental Airlines.

Ya, we have had a couple guys fly west, or almost, while they were actually flying west. All were in their mid to late fifties. The combination of today’s schedules, stress, and the proposed increase of age is a recipe for disaster IMHO.

 

[tailhookah]

from: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/26/BAGE0O9B1810.DTL

..."As the experiment continued, however, the older pilots improved more than the younger pilots. Overall, pilots in their 60s improved on average over the three years, while those in their 40s and 50s declined.
The younger pilots still had an edge despite the narrowing age gap. But the findings suggest that people with the most expertise who stay active in their careers don't necessarily lose ground when they reach traditional retirement age. Instead, the study suggested that "crystallized knowledge" based on years of practice may allow pilots -- like musicians or athletes, and possibly many other categories of "older expert workers" -- to adapt surprisingly well to the declines of normal aging."

I never said that a 65 year old pilot is as sharp as a 40 year old. But studies are studies and these are the facts. It shows that an older pilot is as good as a younger one. Don't forget that you'll be in this catagory someday and you may want to work to 65. But then you'll just change your mind and become one of those senior guys that always screw the junior guys on property just to get yours.... It shows, from this study's perspective that there is no credible reason why the retirement age should not be raised to follow the rest of the world. And for the other study it disproves the generalized belief by some of you that we die quicker than our non-flying counterparts. The two studies go hand in hand. Life expectancy is much longer today than it was when we went to age 60 as well. Andy... give me the facts to counter this... so far you can't post anything other than your opinion... I'm posting studies and facts.

Tail

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Ya, we have had a couple guys fly west, or almost, while they were actually flying west. All were in their mid to late fifties. The combination of today’s schedules, stress, and the proposed increase of age is a recipe for disaster IMHO.

Unless you were there for the autopsy...you really don't know what caused those cardiac events other than a clogged artery ( -ies).

3 guys is not an epidemic...nor cause for alarm. If they or anybody is really stressed from this job...they really should look for something else...or get on a treadmill.

 

[Andy]

But studies are studies and these are the facts...

No, you have not posted the study. You've posted a newspaper article where the author has interpreted the study. I'd view the study at neurology.org, but they want $20 to see it. I'll opt to pass.

It shows that an older pilot is as good as a younger one.

Absolutely NOT! "Regarding age, even though older pilots initially performed worse than younger pilots, over time older pilots showed less decline in flight summary scores than younger pilots." (reference: http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/9/648)
NOTHING states that older pilots are as good as younger ones.bb

Instead, the study suggested that "crystallized knowledge" based on years of practice may allow pilots -- like musicians or athletes, and possibly many other categories of "older expert workers" -- to adapt surprisingly well to the declines of normal aging."

So are you saying that crystallized knowledge is much more valuable to pilots than fluid thinking ability? I saw NO mention of fluid thinking ability in the newspaper article. Since these tests were done in simulators in a static environment, I would expect crystallized knowledge to be of more value. But operating an aircraft in real life is not simply rote procedure.

Don't forget that you'll be in this catagory someday and you may want to work to 65. But then you'll just change your mind and become one of those senior guys that always screw the junior guys on property just to get yours....

Nice. Way to leap to conclusions based on my opposition to changing this rule.

It shows, from this study's perspective that there is no credible reason why the retirement age should not be raised to follow the rest of the world.

No, the article states: "It is time to reconsider fixed age limits for the workplace and consider transitioning to competency-based evaluations of performance," said the editorial authors, Dr. Joseph L. Sirven of the Mayo Clinic and Daniel G. Morrow of the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana.

Andy... give me the facts to counter this... so far you can't post anything other than your opinion... I'm posting studies and facts.

No, you're not posting studies and facts; you've posted a newspaper article that is based on the author's opinion.

 

[Flopgut]

Unless you were there for the autopsy...you really don't know what caused those cardiac events other than a clogged artery ( -ies).

3 guys is not an epidemic...nor cause for alarm. If they or anybody is really stressed from this job...they really should look for something else...or get on a treadmill.

You don't need to undersand what caused the on duty heart attacks to understand you need to relate the fact they happened to the overall safety dynamic. They happened! There is no ignoring it, and yes, the system worked. The current system. We should proceed with caution when considering a change. BTW: On duty heart attack number 2 would have been heart attack death number two if the FA would have used the on board defibulator correctly. You're only supposed to shock them 3 times. She shocked him 6, and the last one worked.

Thanks for the treadmill suggestion. I'm sure that's the cure all. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with flying a widebody to the other side of the planet?!

 

[XJTAv8r]

You all want your cake and eat it too!

You're right! Those who benefited from the age 60 rule throughout their careers now want it both ways by having the rule changed so they can extend their highest earnings years at the expense of those younger and junior to them. I better go buy some stock in Betty Crocker!

 

[tuneintokyo]

Andy, you sound like a guy who just wants other people to think he's smart. I don't like age 65 either but you and your lack of fact based theory is just annoying.