Effective date for age 65

[whymeworry?]

Flew a trip recently where the Captain told me his best friend, who is a UPS driver, told him the IPA did a study and found that not one of their pilots lived past the age of 66 once they retired.

Any UPS drivers care to comment? Is this true?

FWIW, he was hoping the age would change because his recent divorce just cost him $1,000,000... wrote a check for that amount so that he wouldn't have to pay alimony, give her the house, nor give her his retirement. While he wanted to see the rule change to fix his financial situation, he really didn't WANT to work past 60 and agreed he would probably be dead by 65-70 so what's the point of working until 65.

 

[vixin]

........

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Hmmm. Three on duty heart attacks at CAL so far this year

This tells me more CAL pilots need to spend more time on the treadmill and be more careful with their diets.

You say 3 on duty heart attacks "so far". You mean there are more coming? How many more in 2007 ? How many did CAL have in 2005 or 2004 or 2003? got those numbers?

 

[Flopgut]

This tells me more CAL pilots need to spend more time on the treadmill and be more careful with their diets.

You say 3 on duty heart attacks "so far". You mean there are more coming? How many more in 2007 ? How many did CAL have in 2005 or 2004 or 2003? got those numbers?

I say "so far", because it's only April! Three would be a lot in any twelve month period, of course. I don't know how many more are coming and I don't know how many there have been in the recent past. I know you'd like to have that data because you're secretly amused by awful things befalling non SWA pilots.

Treadmill? More careful diets? So basically you're saying you'll support changes to medical standards? Figures.

As you're so fond of pointing out how unique you are: "Your house" doesn't do any long haul, international, back side of the clock flying so the effects of that are something you think should be ignored!? Further ignore the effects of career churn these CAL pilots suffered 20 years ago?....that couldn't possibly help our profession understand how the last 6 years have affected our fellow pilots?

Nope! You don't care, all is well at "your house".

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I say "so far", because it's only April! Three would be a lot in any twelve month period, of course. I don't know how many more are coming and I don't know how many there have been in the recent past. I know you'd like to have that data because you're secretly amused by awful things befalling non SWA pilots.

Treadmill? More careful diets? So basically you're saying you'll support changes to medical standards? Figures.

As you're so fond of pointing out how unique you are: "Your house" doesn't do any long haul, international, back side of the clock flying so the effects of that are something you think should be ignored!? Further ignore the effects of career churn these CAL pilots suffered 20 years ago?....that couldn't possibly help our profession understand how the last 6 years have affected our fellow pilots?

Nope! You don't care, all is well at "your house".

3 pilots is not an epidemic, so relax...BTW...all is well at "my house"...and I'm napp...errrr...I mean, Happy with the state of affairs...here.

 

[Flopgut]

3 pilots is not an epidemic, so relax...BTW...all is well at "my house"...and I'm napp...errrr...I mean, Happy with the state of affairs...here.

In any case, 3 is at least noteworthy. When you're talking about raising the retirement age? It's a big deal. If you're concerned about more than just money for yourself.

 

[AA717driver]

Maybe it's the CAL FO's they're hiring these days that are causing the CA's to croak...

At TWA, even with Icahn, frozen pensions, 50% paycuts, three-packs-a-day, 6 post-flight martinis and 25 years of international we didn't have three guys croak in the cockpit--the whole time I was there (15 years).

BTW, a 48 year old guy who did 6-8 marathons a year just keeled over after crossing the finish line in the Tucson Marathon last year. Guess we'd better lower the retirement age to 45. TC

 

[Andy]

At TWA, even with Icahn, frozen pensions, 50% paycuts, three-packs-a-day, 6 post-flight martinis and 25 years of international we didn't have three guys croak in the cockpit--the whole time I was there (15 years).

Really? You were in charge of monitoring pilot health at TWA? Are you an MD?

 

[tailhookah]

A long study was just completed that found airline pilots actually live longer than the rest of society after retirement... as far as being unfair I can't believe I'm hearing this... It's unfair or age discrimination not to change it or it's unfair to go ahead and change it. You new generation and ALPA stooges are beautiful sometimes... You all want your cake and eat it too!

It's a good rule... sure I would love double the wages and a 60hr guarantee but that's not life. I would like the option to work to 65, although I plan on retiring much sooner. If I am healthy why should I be told I can't work? 65 is working all over the world. Right now as I write this there are multiple 60+ pilots flying all over the USA. Whether it's a foreign airline pilot or a corporate guy or fractional guy or private pilot. But the amazing thing about it is that I'm not reading about airplanes falling out of the sky! But ALPA and you generation me type's would have us believing otherwise. Stop crying about it, it's coming. And if you think Alpa can stop it, then keep spending that 1.95% and continue to hit that hookah pipe.

Tailhookah

 

[kwick]

You're helping to restore my confidence in the military, Tailhookah.

 

[Andy]

A long study was just completed that found airline pilots actually live longer than the rest of society after retirement...

... yet you fail to provide a link or any details about this study.

Let me counter: A long study was just completed that found airline pilots have a shorter lifespan than the rest of society.
True? False? I don't know and I don't offer up any proof one way or the other. And neither did you.
And what does life expectancy after retirement have to do with safety?

How about this one? "Since ICAO increased pilot age to 65, the incidence of pilots over the age of 55 suffering serious medical emergencies while on duty has increased exponentially for at least one airline." I think that it wouldn't be too hard to prove this statement correct. And pilot incapacitation does have a negative impact on the safe operation of commercial aircraft.

 

[tailhookah]

Andy... it took me awhile to find it.

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA292060

Pay close attention to the graphs where the American pilots are shown to have lived much longer than general society after retirement and also to conclusion where it says the same in Black and White....

Now I've shown you mine.... please either find a link for me where you refute this or go away.... I just show the facts and not B/S!

Tail

 

[tailhookah]

Andy wrote:

... yet you fail to provide a link or any details about this study.

Let me counter: A long study was just completed that found airline pilots have a shorter lifespan than the rest of society.
True? False? I don't know and I don't offer up any proof one way or the other. And neither did you.
And what does life expectancy after retirement have to do with safety?

How about this one? "Since ICAO increased pilot age to 65, the incidence of pilots over the age of 55 suffering serious medical emergencies while on duty has increased exponentially for at least one airline." I think that it wouldn't be too hard to prove this statement correct. And pilot incapacitation does have a negative impact on the safe operation of commercial aircraft.

Here Andy... You ask and I answer.... remember Andy just the facts!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/26/BAGE0O9B1810.DTL

Put that in your hookah and smoke it!

Tailhookah

PS-Now Andy either prove your exponential increase of pilot incapacitation or STFup! I tire of guys like you who spout b/s on this board and then can't back it up. Now the ball's in your court... can you play or did you go home?

 

[GuppyWN]

A long study was just completed that found airline pilots actually live longer than the rest of society after retirement...

Your link wouldn't work for me. Does the study show age of death or years lived in retirement? Just curious since those two are significantly different for age 60 airline pilots.

Gup

 

[tailhookah]

Do a google search for: longevity and survival study for retired airline pilots

and then click on the url address near the begining of the document...

tail

ps-it's an FAA study dated 1995.

 

[Andy]

A long study was just completed that found airline pilots actually live longer than the rest of society after retirement...

The study that you posted was published in 1995. Perhaps you and I have a different concept of 'just completed;' a greater than ten year old report is not what I would consider fresh.
Did you take the time to read the report? The statistical sampling used was for pilots who retired from American Airlines between 1968 and 1993. The work conditions for pilots have changed considerably since that timeframe.
How about the study's objective? The purpose of the study was to prove or disprove the theory that pilots have a shorter lifespan than the rest of society.
At no point does the study address pilots' ability to safely operate aircraft and therefore the study has no practical application to the discussion at hand.

 

[Andy]

PS-Now Andy either prove your exponential increase of pilot incapacitation or STFup! I tire of guys like you who spout b/s on this board and then can't back it up. Now the ball's in your court... can you play or did you go home?

Continental Airlines.

 

[Andy]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/26/BAGE0O9B1810.DTL

"At the same time, the older pilots generally had lower scores than younger pilots in the same skill category."

Lower scores, but they did better? Um, ok. One of those new age studies. I'd love to read the full 'scientific' study.

Quite simply, the study proves that there are age related performance declines. For the age groups studied, the younger pilots showed a greater negative deviation from baseline than their senior counterparts. However, there was a measurable age-related performance decline for all age groups.
Talk about putting lipstick on a pig.

 

[sleeves]

Continental Airlines.

Ya, we have had a couple guys fly west, or almost, while they were actually flying west. All were in their mid to late fifties. The combination of today’s schedules, stress, and the proposed increase of age is a recipe for disaster IMHO.

 

[tailhookah]

from: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/26/BAGE0O9B1810.DTL

..."As the experiment continued, however, the older pilots improved more than the younger pilots. Overall, pilots in their 60s improved on average over the three years, while those in their 40s and 50s declined.
The younger pilots still had an edge despite the narrowing age gap. But the findings suggest that people with the most expertise who stay active in their careers don't necessarily lose ground when they reach traditional retirement age. Instead, the study suggested that "crystallized knowledge" based on years of practice may allow pilots -- like musicians or athletes, and possibly many other categories of "older expert workers" -- to adapt surprisingly well to the declines of normal aging."

I never said that a 65 year old pilot is as sharp as a 40 year old. But studies are studies and these are the facts. It shows that an older pilot is as good as a younger one. Don't forget that you'll be in this catagory someday and you may want to work to 65. But then you'll just change your mind and become one of those senior guys that always screw the junior guys on property just to get yours.... It shows, from this study's perspective that there is no credible reason why the retirement age should not be raised to follow the rest of the world. And for the other study it disproves the generalized belief by some of you that we die quicker than our non-flying counterparts. The two studies go hand in hand. Life expectancy is much longer today than it was when we went to age 60 as well. Andy... give me the facts to counter this... so far you can't post anything other than your opinion... I'm posting studies and facts.

Tail