DW is mad at Jetblue

[Palerider957]

They have commenced research on the circadian rhythm issue and after those facts are in, they will then determine their course of action. It is very possible, that they will not endorse changing the limits.

What research needs to be done? NASA, the NTSB, and DOT, all have tons of data to show rest problems. That's why other industries have had to reform, the airlines are the only hold outs. Why this is, I have no idea.

I can only imagine that the airlines have totally coopted the FAA in this area--screaming the revenue card. I guess the FAA feels it's up to individual pilot groups to negotiate their own rest.

Hell, the bus drivers who shuffle us to and from the employee parking lot have much better rest requirements then we do.

It's a bizarre situation if you ask me.

 

[B6Guy]

One More Time

One more time, we are looking at DAYTIME, TWO-LEG trips ONLY. After this information was stated there are PAGES of screaming about multiple legs, night flying, Yada, Yada. Yada.
In other words all the other comments are MOOT! They don't mean squat.

We are talking as an example. JFK-OAK, 45min turn, OAK-JFK. Report at JFK 0600-ish, leave the airport [JFK] at 1900-ish.

Currently, some pairings are: JFK-OAK [or LGB], 10hr rest [good luck!!] [LGB] OAK-JFK [zombie flight]. This is FAA blessed/legal but very dangerous, many crews get NO REST due to trying to sleep during the day, then fly all night again. So this is the same flight time [~11:50] but in a 24hour [actual] duty day. Very tough duty, but legal.

This is in an airbus, not a DC-9 spining VOR's, or other non glass aricraft. No other type flights are being considered.

This is a JetBlue exemption, not a blanket FAA rule changing proposal. Everybody else stop squirming. Unless your company [and your union if you have one] ask for this, it is only for JetBlue.

I am participating in the study, in the hopes that it will give us some good data, and the FAA will buy off on it. I doubt that I will ever get one of the trips outside of the study, since I'm sure they will go way senior. But if the senior guys take the WCT's [west coast turns] Then someone further down the ladder will get what the senior guys used to fly. Maybe some of that will trickle down to my level.

 

[MercuryPilot]

In the military we'd log 13+ hours of flying and pull 20+ hour duty days to get the plane ready for the next mission. This new concept should be cake.

I just returned from back to back to back trancon redeyes w/all day sleeps. That got a bit painful. I'm eager to see the results of the research WRT the dreaded "day sleep."

If the scientific research finds that we're doing things the wrong way and could more safely do them another, what's the problem?

 

[Palerider957]

You Jet Blue guys just don't seem to understand. Yes, you are talking about simple transcon flights with two legs. But this sets a PRECEDANT. One that EVERY OTHER AIRLINE will seek to exploit.

I have to think most of you came from another airline, this shoudln't be an alien concept to you.

As for the military pilots--THIS IS NOT ABOUT COMPLETING A MISSION OF NATIONAL SECURITY. This is about the company squeezing EVERY last penny out of you that they can.

 

[klhoard]

. . .<snip>. . This is about the company squeezing EVERY last penny out of you that they can.

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Can I get an AMEN?
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[Realistic]

INFO ALERT! It has been said that jetBlue pilots support this. I don't remember a vote here but I can assure you that not ALL jetBlue pilots support this. Senior (East Coast) pilots are jumping up and down about it. It will complement the 90 hour lines with time-and-a-half very nicely.
It has also been said that these trips will go senior. Yes they will - and the ones that fall out during irop/sick calls will go very junior - all the way to the reserve who's trying to make a two leg commute to Kennedy work with 12 days off.
The response from our management is that "we don't differentiate between a pilot who elects to commute and the pilot on Long Island who's spending the day with his family. Each pilot has the responsibility to arrive rested for any trip that may become available." Where have I heard this before?
In addition - our "Alertness Management Program" will provide some solid science to prove that reserves should have no problem with double duty as long as they use the "strategies" that come out of this program.
No - let's make sure we vote on this when we know what's really going to happen.

 

[Realistic]

As far as additional "safety" enhancements to our current schedules...

I challenge anybody (when all is said and done) to find a specific change in our schedules that would hurt jetBlue economically. Then I challenge you (when all is said and done) to find the pilots who's lives have been changed for the better and the pilots who's lives have been changed for the worse.
I think you will find the same group of have's and have-not's that we have today.
Don't let anyone convince you that this is only about day turns for senior guys. We are opening the WHOLE can of worms on this one and we might see some interesting "improvements" to things like reserve rules, redeyes, etc.

 

[B6Guy]

Understand?

I understand :
I work by the hour, not on salary. If I bid pairings that have more flight hours per day, then I'm making more money
If I make more money I'm NOT being 'exploited'
If I don't want WCT's I won't bid them
If I don't want productive pairings, I'll get therapy
There are only so many pairings that fit the description, so I doubt that there will be many available for bid, or showing up in open time [I can dream!!]
If I'm tired, fatigued or distressed. I can opt out of a pairing.

So what is being 'exploited' ?
Crappy pairings that have nothing but day 'sleeps' that burn you out [but are legal!]
Crappy pairings that only work if you commute in the day before, spend another wonderful night in the crashpad, fly , get back late, and spend another wonderful night in the crashpad, commute home: [burn two additional days of my life for a crappy pairing] [OR if this exemption goes through, fly enough hours/day that the commute doesn't matter!!]
Too few productive pairings to go around
No time and a half over guarantee

How does that kid's story go?? 'Please, Please don't throw me into the Briar Patch!!!

I'll take every one of these WCT tips that come my way, [if we're lucky enough to get the exemption] and will feel 'exploited' all the way to the bank.

 

[MercuryPilot]

You Jet Blue guys just don't seem to understand. Yes, you are talking about simple transcon flights with two legs. But this sets a PRECEDANT. One that EVERY OTHER AIRLINE will seek to exploit.

If your airline tries to exploit this, can't you use your union for something productive like opting out of this concept?

 

[Palerider957]

B6Guy:


Your managemnt might have honest intentions, and the pilot group at JB might feel comfortable with this...fine. You must realize that most pilot groups are at war with their management, and are fighting BITTERLY to hold on to the absolute basics. This is why the proposal has struck such a chord.

I understand only a few of your lines would have this provision, but the rule change is out there. All of a sudden we would see trips regularly blocked to 9 hours, with a "don't like it, grieve it" attitude.

When Mesa started with concessions, they thought it would only effect them. Now we see their POS contract has rippled through the industry.

You and your company may have a special/good working realtionship......believe me, I don't. ANY backpeddling in FAR duty limits will be used to hit me and my kind right between the eyes.

 

[MoGambo]

How did this start out ?

Lets sum up:

DW gets 400K+/yr and steps up to the plate to "protect the masses"

JB is going to corrupt industry with flighttime change

JB blah blah blah blah is therefore evil

JB needs to get union because blah blah blah....We (non JB) have unions to protect us from bad company men

If JB gets exemption then we WILL all have to follow

Wait , we have powerful unions to protect us from this, so why are we b1tching ?

Regardless of outcome, DW still gets his 400K+/yr

 

[Palerider957]

If your airline tries to exploit this, can't you use your union for something productive like opting out of this concept?

Mercury:

Contracts are under siege every where. yes, we can file a grievance, which will take a year, ALPA attorneys, several meeting, etc. to run it's course. In the end the company would grudingly agree that they violated the contract (assuming the mediator awarded the pilot). Then the company might give you an extra day off, over a year after the original violation.

The only--repeat ONLY, protections you have written in stone are the F-A-R's. And I have been pushed to violate these on several occaisons. A call to the union, and the FAA hotline have always made the company back down. Although you won't be "disciplined" for enforcing the FAR's, you can bet you will be punished. (I remeber being extended for SEVEN legs the day after I refused to fly past 16 hours.)

We CANNOT allow anyone to errode what minimal protections the FAR's provide.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

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Can I get an AMEN?
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A-Freaking-MEN.

 

[PCL_128]

If your airline tries to exploit this, can't you use your union for something productive like opting out of this concept?

Our contracts don't currently place limits on the amount of flying in a day because we never thought that another group of pilots would be dumb enough to push for something like this. Our contract at PCL simply states that the maximum flight time in a day will be no more that what the regs state. That means that if they company got an exemption using the JB exemption as a precedent, then I would be flying 9 leg days with 15.5 hours of duty. Screw that.

In order to stop something like this, we would have to expend negotiating capital to put an 8 hour limit in the contract. That means we would have to give up something else to get it (pay, rigs, vacation, etc...). I'm not willing to give up anything to negotiate a limit on flight time just because a bunch of morons at JB want to allow more flight time in day so the senior pilots can get 20 day off instead of 19.

JB pilots, for once in your lives think about how your actions are going to affect the rest of the industry. JB doesn't operate in a vacuum. What you do affects all of us. We don't have the happy-go-lucky management that you do. Our management will exploit this exemption to the utmost extent no matter how negatively it affects safety.

 

[holdon]

You Jet Blue guys just don't seem to understand. Yes, you are talking about simple transcon flights with two legs. But this sets a PRECEDANT. One that EVERY OTHER AIRLINE will seek to exploit.

I have to think most of you came from another airline, this shoudln't be an alien concept to you.

As for the military pilots--THIS IS NOT ABOUT COMPLETING A MISSION OF NATIONAL SECURITY. This is about the company squeezing EVERY last penny out of you that they can.

Give me a couple of extra hours per day with a reduction of Duty hours (more productive) and more days off per month? Sign me up

 

[AA717driver]

None of us operate in a vaccum. This WILL ripple down through the industry.

Just as you can thank TWA/AA for the widespread use of 1113, this "exemption" WILL become the rule "because we have to compete".

Just as the 190 rates will be the standard for the other majors flying them, so will the WCT.TC

 

[9DRIVER]

8 hour rule

Not arguing that the industry needs some changes, but I don't believe that changes in the flight duty time limits will make the industry anymore competitive. When you make changes on the cost side of the equation that can be imitatted by all the other airlines to one extent or another then there is no true savings. You may however reduce the safety of your operation. ie: Depart out of New york with a red eye on the return. Don't think the passengers would like to here of an operation that is based more on cost than safety. I'm not saying it can't be done, physically, but its definitely going to reduce the safety of the operation at the expense of Corporate cost savings. Who wins....?

What's wrong with doing something "new". This industry needs to change. The old way of doing business isn't working. I take it you are United. It probably wouldn't hurt United to adapt.

 

[Spooky 1]

HNL turns

Keep playing that limbo song......as the bar goes lower....and lower.....and lower...and lower....

Just a guess but with the Duke in your profile I guess that you might be a HAL guy? If so, are you flying HNL mainland turns over there and if not, is it specifically prohibited in your contract? And, if you are doing them, are they going senior or junior?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

This was probably the most senior trip in the LAX DC8 bid pack. You had to work 7 days a month.

Yeah, but they weren't flying 90 hours/month, now were they?

 

[InclusiveScope]

Only a fool could not see that this opens the door for additional change. Congratulations.

If you can't see that "additional change" is necessary, then you my friend are the fool. You are one of those "status quo" folks who thinks the past way of doing things is the best way. Some of us prefer to think outside the box. You definately have potential up in Herndon.....