Delta

[dalad]

The DC-9's are staying til 2014 now as the company needs the lift. Bid out next month to cover remaining 330/744 retirements. Another bid in Jan to cover remaining MD-90 deliveries as well as 739's and 717's. Looking at expanding SEA to Asia, and South of the border. Going to buy 60,000 Windows 8 based tablet computers, electronic flight bag included. EFB to be introduced with 717 fleet first. BA is offering more 717's that are parked in the desert, former Mexicana Click? You can deposit up to 60 hours in the positive bank and go up to 30 negative. Hiring - Who knows, depends on the economy and the 2013 marketing schedule. Original plan was to start interviewing in late fall to hire early winter, but that plan has been delayed. Lots of rumors that HA may be in play. Just look at their route map and ours. That's it for now.

 

[Smarta$$]

Hey general, is delta they greatest airline in history, or just the greatest airline of the last 100 years? I'm sorry, I meant Air Line.

 

[jonjuan]

You do have the option to bank if you want. I was able to bank 20 hours while on 1st year pay which I can now cash it at a much higher rate.

You can just cash it out in form of a check. Sweet!

 

[redflyer65]

So, Hawaii and ETOPS is currently dead for you guys? Wow. That Capt I talked to said you guys were "late to the game" in that arena anyway. I guess now you could focus more on Latin America and the Caribbean in 2015 if you get a new Reservation system. Sounds like GK folded his cards in the right time for Hawaii. Oh well. Aloha!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Not dead General, just switched to the back burner. Initially it was ETOPS/HI first and near international second. Those were switched around a year ago. Sorry you didn't get the memo earlier. I'm so glad our company doesn't limit our credits like that. If you want to relax and drop most of your line it's easy, if you want to work hard and make north of 130 credits a month...they say have at it. The variety is awesome.

 

[SplitBar]

You can just cash it out in form of a check. Sweet!

Not really.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Not dead General, just switched to the back burner. Initially it was ETOPS/HI first and near international second. Those were switched around a year ago. Sorry you didn't get the memo earlier. I'm so glad our company doesn't limit our credits like that. If you want to relax and drop most of your line it's easy, if you want to work hard and make north of 130 credits a month...they say have at it. The variety is awesome.

Hey red, serious question...no dig,

Doesn't that just mean less pilots and no hiring if a lot of people are picking up 130 hours?

 

[ASADFW7]

Bill, from what we are told by scheduling and flight ops, is that SWA tries to run lean on manning during peak months, and about right for the rest of the year. The SWA gig is like crack for those who want to run at 130 trips. Yes it does mean less people on staff, less benefits, health insurance, all that goes along with hiring extra employees. Thus less employees on average per airplane. The difference between SWAPA and ALPA is that SWAPA has partnered for productivity and flexibility over more bodies on property. That historical partnership is at a peak now.

 

[redflyer65]

Bill,

ASA answered it perfectly. It's all about productivity here. You might be expected to work hard on your days but also get compensated very well. The 120~ 130 range is pretty easy and that's straight time pay. If senior enough, you can do premium and the sky is the limit. It's completely up to you. Very cool system.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Hey red, serious question...no dig,

Doesn't that just mean less pilots and no hiring if a lot of people are picking up 130 hours?

No dig back, and to expound on ASADFW: When I was hired, we were told that the company expects a certain percentage of pilots to be "greedy bastards." That allows them to have fewer pilots-per-plane than other carriers. Currently, we're averaging about 10.5 - 10.8 pilots per plane (I'm not sure about the Airtran side). That saves the company money in that they're paying benefits (medical, 401-k, etc.) to fewer pilots for the same amount of flying being done, and those pilots can therefore pick up more flying and bank more money. It's considered a win-win situation for both sides. I'm sure an Airtran brother can chime in about their current situation, but keep in mind, the transistion is still in major flux, and presumidly, when all is said and done, and we're all Southwest, it'll be back to as described.

As long as the model (pilots-per-plane) stays the same, growth or retirements still bring hiring just like at any other carrier. We just hire a couple fewer pilots for every new plane than other guys.

This is a considerable philosophical difference between SWAPA and othe pilot groups who have stated maximums for their people. We have no maximums other than FAA legalities. I presume (don't know for sure, as I've never worked for another airline) the other groups' maximum hour limitations are to force the companies to hire more pilots, but we don't see it that way. I suppose the only people our system is "screwing," are pilots who don't work for us, in that we didn't hire as many of them. The ones who are here generally love the situation, in that they can pick up as much work as they want.

That also explains why SWA pilots have so much opportunity to pick up premium flying (esp. in summer). As the company keeps its manning model lean, it would rather pay a little premium here and there, than have more employees to fund benefits for. It also explains why reserves are utilized to their guarantee and more, as they're used before uncovered flying goes premium. Paying people to sit is not a cost-effective business decision, in SWA's eyes. It's been more lately on the Captain side, but it fluctuates somewhat based on a lot of factors, some of which are beyond me as a mere pilot.

Does that explanation help, Bill?

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Bubba,

Thanks for the explanation of a key difference, SWA doesn't pay you to sit. That can be good and bad. Everyone wants to spend more time at home with the kids. (unless you have bratty kids) SWA's trips are very productive, trying to fly a bunch each day. That sounds fun initially, but after you grow older, MOST people want to fly less. Seeing a rotation with 3 or more legs in one day now gives me the shivers. NO WAY. I want one leg to a nice destination for a nice meal and some relaxation. You can do that domestically or internationally at DL. SWA doesn't have layovers that are over 24 hours probably. Domestically, there are some at DL, but you still get paid 5:15 for that day if it is in the middle of the trip. Some domestic trips get you into a city at midnight on the first or second night of a 4 day trip, and then you have a 32 hour layover somewhere that might have only one mainline plane in there per day. That means relaxation, maybe beach time, maybe a good sleep and then a good workout, maybe a tour somewhere. Whatever. Not every trip is like that, but they are out there if you want to relax a bit. SWA may not do that, but DL wants that plane flying in there late at night with an early go the next day, and that extra revenue probably pays for it. It's their choice to do that. Overall, there are a variety of trips domestically that you can do, depending on seniority and day of the week. One day turns, all the way up to 5 day domestic trips. Obviously you have to stay within the 30 and 7 rule, and the 5 day domestics can be close. Some 4 days have 4 legs with 4 transcons on the 757s and 737-800s. Some have 4 legs a day each on the DC9.....

Internationally, the layovers are usually very nice hotels (for security reasons too), and it is great to see something "different." Yes, some trips to Africa may not be great, but they also can go senior for the amount of time you get. (24 hour 3 day trip for examples) The trips vary in length, and depending on your seniority, you can get what you want. If you can't, bid another plane or base. Bid domestic. Bid one day turns to the Caribbean. It's called variety.

So, that's the big difference. CHOICE. I know SWA has been very profitable and has treated your group well (some AT guys beg to differ, and they will be a part of your group by 2015). DL has had some tough years, but better management and higher yeilds have help lift the airline. Slowly the pay has come back, but it is better than the other legacies, and hopefully will go even higher. RJ numbers are shrinking (minus 147 within the next 3 years total). When the airlines start to hire enmasse coming up here, pilots are going to have to look at all the airlines and see what they want to do OVERALL in their career. Some may want to fly multiple leg days in one plane type forever. If so, they have a couple choices---SWA or a legacy staying on one plane forever (even with the choice to go to something else). Regardless, I hope we all hire more and our airlines do well in the future.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[xjhawk]

sign me up general

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

General...

We get paid 5:15 for each duty day.....one of the reasons I was a no voter was because of that big caveat. Hence the BS transcons that pay 12 hours when tafb is 36 hours.....jacking the edge of the rigs. We should be paid per calendar day, but we just roll over and play dead.

 

[General Lee]

General...

We get paid 5:15 for each duty day.....one of the reasons I was a no voter was because of that big caveat. Hence the BS transcons that pay 12 hours when tafb is 36 hours.....jacking the edge of the rigs. We should be paid per calendar day, but we just roll over and play dead.

Bill,

As long as your first day duties IN before 9pm local, you will get a min of 4:30 per calendar day. (starting NOV 1st) So, those old three days worth 11 hours will now be worth 13:30 min instead, a few extra hundred dollars for the same trips. The reason some don't want 5:15 per calendar day is because at that point, the bid computer will consider each day as a normal day, and connect trips as efficiently as possible. The LA guys wouldn't like that because the computer would treat the Hawaii legs from LA just like ATL legs. So, all of the Hawaii flights from LA might go to ATL or NYC guys, because the computer is just looking at the 5:15 min per day. So, at 4:30 min per Calendar day, the LA guys keep their Hawaii 3 days, but still get a 2 hour 30 min bump in pay per 3 day trip to Lihue, Maui, Kona, and HNL. Overall the 5:15 min would have been nice, but local bases would have lost the trips they enjoyed, all to a computer that is looking for efficiency. So, LA guys win, and the company saves a bit of change (over 5:15), but we all make an extra 2:30 compared to the last contract. I actually have done a couple out of base white slips to OGG and KOA from LAX, and those resorts were nice!

Btw, for those of you who don't understand this, these particular 3 days leave LA or NYC before 9pm local and then go to Hawaii or the West Coast from JFK. They stay over 24 hours, and then fly allnight back to LA or JFK/ATL. So, there are 2 flight segments, that were worth a min of 5:15 each, but they leave the night of the second day, and arrive early on day 3. A true 3 day with legs on all 3 days is worth a min of 15:45. But, since those allnighters leave late on day 2, they were worth a min of 10:30(most are worth about 11 hours). As of Nov 1st, those trips will be worth a min of 13:30, an extra 2:30.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

4:30? That's awful. I don't blame Bill on this one. Southwest averages 6.5 across the trip. Should have voted NO General.

 

[General Lee]

4:30? That's awful. I don't blame Bill on this one. Southwest averages 6.5 across the trip. Should have voted NO General.

When you negotiate Red, you have to give and take. Other parts of the contract were good, some not as good, but better. You guys almost allowed reserve in Hawaii, but then you dropped your ETOPS app for an indefinite amount of time. Also, that calendar day only accounts for a select few number of flights, most days are worth 5:15. A standard 4 day is worth at least 21 hours. But, I do INTL trips for 6 days worth 40 hours, which is much better than your 6.5 average for a 4 day. You lose. It's called variety! Too bad about your lack of Hawaii flying. Oh well. Aloha!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Diesel-9]

The 1:2 duty rig and THC are much better credits. The 4:30 ADC is a start and helps on those redeyes and Hawaii trips. The THC gives you about 5:30 for each full day away from base. More improvements needed though. The 1:2 is good, need better THC like earlier days to make them use us more or at least pay us while gone. Would give you 6 hr a day credit.

 

[redflyer65]

When you negotiate Red, you have to give and take. Other parts of the contract were good, some not as good, but better. You guys almost allowed reserve in Hawaii, but then you dropped your ETOPS app for an indefinite amount of time. Also, that calendar day only accounts for a select few number of flights, most days are worth 5:15. A standard 4 day is worth at least 21 hours. But, I do INTL trips for 6 days worth 40 hours, which is much better than your 6.5 average for a 4 day. You lose. It's called variety! Too bad about your lack of Hawaii flying. Oh well. Aloha!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Delta 4 day trips = 21

SW 4 day trips = 26

Big difference. You are funny when you try to state what's going on at SW. We actually do have reserve in HI written into our contract. Get paid 6.0 for the middle day, to stay on the beach. Do you think that's a bad thing? I don't. Sign me up. Do you get paid 6.0 to while your in the Sudan hunkered down in the hotel trying to avoid Eboli?

 

[General Lee]

Delta 4 day trips = 21

SW 4 day trips = 26

Big difference. You are funny when you try to state what's going on at SW. We actually do have reserve in HI written into our contract. Get paid 6.0 for the middle day, to stay on the beach. Do you think that's a bad thing? I don't. Sign me up. Do you get paid 6.0 to while your in the Sudan hunkered down in the hotel trying to avoid Eboli?

21 is the MIN on a 4 day trip at DL, not the max. There are plenty of 4 day domestic trips worth over 24 hours, and 5 day trips worth close to 30 hours, some over with a DH. Then Red add the INTL trips worth 40 hours on a 6 day INTL pairing (did them this Summer, 4 10 hour legs with layovers in between or a DH at the end), and you LOSE.

Hey, the SWA Captain I talked to in ATL who told me about you dropping the ETOPS Hawaii stuff for now said something about pilots at SWA now being assinged an extra couple legs at the end of the day in SEA to go over to Paine Field to pick up a plane and ferry it back to SEA? They used to give those out as open trips, but now they are just assigning them to guys who think they are ending the day in SEA, but still have time left on the duty day? What's that all about? So if you have a min of 6+ 30 a day, and you haven't hit that at SEA, you can get assigned more, just to get you to that 6+30? He didn't seem happy about it, and the FO he was with said it happened to him already. They looked tired. When do you start allnighters, btw? When you do, and they have 2 legs, they may also be worth 13 hours (6+30 for each day and the second day has the allnighter). You might want to look into that. You will LUV those allnighters, especially with F-Airtran Captains. SO MUCH LUV IN THE AIR.

And it looks like your Hawaii reserve dreams won't be happening for a LONG while. Allegiant beat you to it. Oh well. ALOHA!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

Why are we talking southwest on a delta thread??

 

[say again]

I don't understand how someone who loves their job loses?