Delta the Least Respected Brand in America

[General Lee]

Speaking of zero relevance, here's GL back when they voted to increase the size of RJs in the DCI fleet.

Did the RJ size (76 seats) increase? Did we budge on that number? Nope. That was what I was talking about. Are you talking about during BK when thr judge oversaw the process, or during the last two contracts? (the joint merger contract and the latest one) Overall, this last contract subtracted 140 total RJs from the fleet. That is a win. You can't just park them all at once, but adding 88 717s sure helps, and mainline wins there again. On a side note, I heard the NYC chief pilot said the 717s coming for the remainder of this year will increase from initially 3 per month, to 6 per month, and then back to 3 per month in Jan of next year. That will accelerate the recapture of RJ routes. Thanks for playing.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Except that's not what's happening; At best it will be an integration over a 4.3 year period, paying lower wages and profiting from those lower wages. Whilst completely ignoring seniority.

That's called outsourcing with a B Scale. Same airplane, same company, lower wage. You've used the 'Delta owned Regional scam' that you so abhor, and thrown in a fancy twist. Having a semi finite time scale doesnt make a difference.

You can call it whatever you like to make yourself feel comfortable. It doesnt change how your peers in the industry, outside of your bubble, regard you as a group.

Ouch.

Hey Red and Bubba, obviously people disagree with you. But, you WILL change their minds. Bahahahhahaha! You guys will never learn. Go LUV one each other right now....all the way to Harlingen.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[SWA Bubba]

Except that's not what's happening; At best it will be an integration over a 4.3 year period, paying lower wages and profiting from those lower wages. Whilst completely ignoring seniority.

That's called outsourcing with a B Scale. Same airplane, same company, lower wage. You've used the 'Delta owned Regional scam' that you so abhor, and thrown in a fancy twist. Having a semi finite time scale doesnt make a difference.

You can call it whatever you like to make yourself feel comfortable. It doesnt change how your peers in the industry, outside of your bubble, regard you as a group.

Actually, I meant to say "3-1/2" instead of "2-1/2", and that's being generous. The mechanism to actually start merging (SL-10 for the SWAPA side) was signed at the end of Sept 2011, essentially 3 years and 3 months from the end of 2014. The actual beginning of doing anything didn't actually start until 2012, making it somewhat less than 3 years. Your "integration over a 4.3 year period" apparently starts counting the day Southwest announced its intention to acquire AirTran, even though nothing else actually happened for quite a while, and it wasn't even a done deal. The actual legal close of the transaction was in May 2011 at which point negotiations started in earnest on how to actually accomplish the integration. Whatever. You're arguing semantics to make your point seem greater.

As far as your "same airplane, same company, lower wage" claim, I'm gonna' have to throw the BS flag. Again, you're posturing and coloring facts to make your point seem more important. Sorry, that doesn't make it true because you're mad about the situation.

Once again for the hard of hearing: AirTran and Southwest are NOT the same company. They are two different airlines, with two different business models, and two different cost/revenue structures. Just because the two airlines are owned by the same company is immaterial. Each of the different companies has a different union representing their respective pilots. Each union negotiated the best deal that they could, based on their work and their respective companies' ability to pay. You (well, your union representatives actually) signed a contract to do certain flying for certain payrates. You're still doing the less-efficient AirTran flying; why should you be entitled to higher rates? The contract that you agreed to is not good enough for you now?

If you flew Southwest aircraft, and more importantly on a Southwest schedule, and got paid differently, THEN, and only then, could you make a legitimate claim of "B Scale." Until then, you're just like the General--using random, scary labor buzzwords to make your point seem better than it actually is.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Ouch.

Hey Red and Bubba, obviously people disagree with you. But, you WILL change their minds. Bahahahhahaha! You guys will never learn. Go LUV one each other right now....all the way to Harlingen.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hey, I said there's unhappy people on both sides of the fence. Dicko is one of the more vocal on his side. However, that doesn't entitle him to his own facts.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Except that's not what's happening; At best it will be an integration over a 4.3 year period, paying lower wages and profiting from those lower wages. Whilst completely ignoring seniority.

That's called outsourcing with a B Scale. Same airplane, same company, lower wage. You've used the 'Delta owned Regional scam' that you so abhor, and thrown in a fancy twist. Having a semi finite time scale doesnt make a difference.

You can call it whatever you like to make yourself feel comfortable. It doesnt change how your peers in the industry, outside of your bubble, regard you as a group.

As far as your claim of "outsourcing" goes, more BS. If we had someone else do our flying FOR us at a lower cost, that would be outsourcing. On the other hand, buying another company and absorbing THEIR flying is the opposite of outsourcing. We're growing and getting MORE flying for SWAPA pilots at SWAPA-negotiated wages. You can't absorb AirTran's entire network instantly; they're working as fast as the IT department, training, painting, etc. can go. Hence the limited partial waiver of our scope clause to accomplish it.

Again, it boils down to the fact that now you don't like the fact that you are getting paid what you agreed to get paid to do the type of flying that you do.

That doesn't make this situation a B-scale OR outsourcing. You can use all the buzzwords that you want to complain, but that doesn't make them true. And all you do is minimize the situations when that sort of stuff actually IS true. I'm surprised that you haven't compared your poor plight to the holocaust or something.

Bubba

 

[maxblast72]

Are you seriously insinuating that some Northwest guys didn't get the shaft in your SLI? That's funny.

Here's another hint....

The NW/DL merger is done and over, and..

So is the SW/AT merger. But for some reason GL likes to still bring up history. Do you see anyone else on here talking about the DL merger? Why? Because it's over and done. Pointless.

Redflyer, the General is just upset that Delta has to use $700-800 million of cash from operations every year to fund the pension plan while Southwest uses that same $700-800 million of cash from operations to pay cash for 20-30 brand new B737-800s.

 

[dicko]

Bubba,

As I said before, it's a shell game. Our Chief Pilot is a SWA pilot. His underboss is on SWA Manager pay. He's on the AirTran seniority list and voted. There's a Single Operating Certificate. AirTran pilots receive Southwest profit sharing. The profits we make are Southwest profits. Every AirTran pilot works for Southwest, under a convenient shell called AirTran. Our work is outsourced by Southwest on a lower pay scale.

Perhaps we're like Comair ? They were owned by Delta yet operated separately. That's outsourcing isn't it Bubba ? You dont like that, right Bubba ? Your allowing it with the same aircraft type at a lower pay.

You're having to split hairs in order to justify your reasoning. It's a temporary B Scale and its outsourcing. Approved by SWAPA in exchange for a seniority bump. You're unable to call it a B Scale and outsourcing because its embarrassing and doesn't fit your self image. Individually, and as a group.

I'll let you get back to harassing Delta pilots because they outsource their flying for lower pay, to companies they own. Which part of that doesn't fit you ?

 

[Scoot 11]

6 pages of....NEVERMIND!

 

[dicko]

In unrelated news:

After years of being either the top airline, or in the top three for on time arrivals and baggage handling - AirTran is now second last as of June 2013. 15 out of 16.

We did beat American Eagle. So we've got that going for us.

 

[waveflyer]

6 pages of....NEVERMIND!

Exactly...

Shouldn't this thread be about delta not being anywhere close to the worst brand-

Media bs

 

[Dan Roman]

Exactly...

Shouldn't this thread be about delta not being anywhere close to the worst brand-

Media bs

Spot on......no offense to other carriers, but I don't think anyone thinks DAL could hardly be considered the worst airline in the U.S.
I assume someone with an ax to grind is behind this.

 

[Scoot 11]

Exactly...

Shouldn't this thread be about delta not being anywhere close to the worst brand-

Media bs

Looks like someone needs a diaper change...

 

[SWA Bubba]

......

You're having to split hairs in order to justify your reasoning. It's a temporary B Scale and its outsourcing. Approved by SWAPA in exchange for a seniority bump. You're unable to call it a B Scale and outsourcing because its embarrassing and doesn't fit your self image. Individually, and as a group.

I'll let you get back to harassing Delta pilots because they outsource their flying for lower pay, to companies they own. Which part of that doesn't fit you ?

Sorry, Dicko, but it's you playing a game of terminology.

NOT giving you a raise to do the same flying you've been doing under your contract, just because of an ownership change, doesn't make the rates you agreed to earn a "B-scale." You negotiated them; you got the best deal your company could afford. They are, in fact, AirTran's 'A' scale. Why do you think you now deserve more money than you agreed to, for doing the same job you've been doing? You've got AirTran pilots on this forum bragging about short, easy days and long layovers, and then complaining about how much work they'll have to do on the Southwest side. AirTran's business model is less efficient than Southwest, and won't support the higher payscale. But you just want more money for doing your old, less-efficient flying? Why? Just because? The fact is, if AirTran employees were paid Southwest rates for the flying that they did, AirTran would lose money. What part of THAT doesn't fit you, Dicko?

Anyway, in case you haven't been watching, I'm not harassing Delta pilots about anything, other than refuting General Lee's anti-SWA rants. As far as taking Delta to task for outsourcing, you must be confusing me with Wave.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba,

.....
You're having to split hairs in order to justify your reasoning. It's a temporary B Scale and its outsourcing. Approved by SWAPA in exchange for a seniority bump. You're unable to call it a B Scale and outsourcing because its embarrassing and doesn't fit your self image. Individually, and as a group.

I'll let you get back to harassing Delta pilots because they outsource their flying for lower pay, to companies they own. Which part of that doesn't fit you ?

And not to beat a dead horse, but you have the "SWAPA-approved/seniority bump" part backwards, actually. It was YOUR union that gave up SWAPA pay rates for a seniority bump (from SL-9 to SL-10). From the first agreement to the second agreement, AirTran pilots improved their overall seniority, and conversely, Southwest pilots' overall seniority was worsened, in "return" for AirTran pilots not getting SWAPA rates.

And lest we forget, SWAPA doesn't pay pilots' salaries; the company does. And it was management who came up with the majority of both deals, including who gets paid what when, after concluding they shouldn't have offered the pay on the first deal. I know, I know... More "semantics" that doesn't fit your victimization complex.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Looks like someone needs a diaper change...

You might want to read it again, Scoot; I think he was sticking up for you.

Bubba