Delta TA-whos seen it?

[General Lee]

777-200 ca 268.64 fo 183.49
767/ 757 ca 224.86 fo 153.58
737-700/800 ca215.63 fo 147.27
A320 ca 208.06 fo 142.11
A195 ca 162.91 fo 111.27
E190/CRJ700 ca 138.59 fo 94.65

Hmmm. Well, if those are the rates I guess they aren't bad. I will have to see the rest of the TA too. Thanks for sharing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The only people who know what's in this thing have confidentiality agreements with the company, nobody on here knows jack.

So, there are never leaks? Sure there are, often by people who want to float it out there to see initial reaction. It might not be 100% true, but often it can be close.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[jayme]

The only leaked part is the rates. Since they're pretty good, you can assume it's because they want to distract you so you don't notice the garbage in the fine print. I hate to say it, but I see you guys giving away more flying.

 

[General Lee]

The only leaked part is the rates. Since they're pretty good, you can assume it's because they want to distract you so you don't notice the garbage in the fine print. I hate to say it, but I see you guys giving away more flying.

No, there was a negotiator's notepad that had a pretty good amount of possible changes to some workrules. It went over OK, but there were some parts that may have needed fine tuning. Some of those sections could have been worked on again to supress the discontent from some of the groups.

You are right though, sometimes pilots are blinded by the money, and there will have to be that plus a lot of other improvements to get a majority to vote yes. Scope is the other big issue that came up in the initial survey, and there are many forms of scope. Not only RJs, but Joint Ventures and codeshares too. A lot needed to be cleaned up, and I don't know if everything can be cleaned up in one contract, although the company sure did want it done quickly. Hopefully that means there was some leverage applied. We'll see....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dan Roman]

That's what is so interesting. They got a TA so quickly. I can't imagine it is a bad one given that fact. You have to wonder what is going on.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Hmmm. Well, if those are the rates I guess they aren't bad. I will have to see the rest of the TA too. Thanks for sharing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Those showed up on our website before here so id be suspect. Those are essentially our rates adjusted for hourly.

I hope you get them. I hope you get more actually.

 

[PuffDriver]

Your kidding right. We live in America, when has the upper end of price determined sales. Have you seen all the Wal-Marts and McDonalds driving down the road. Or are you suggesting their being torn down and replaced with Macy's and Texas de Brazils?

The consumer is driven by ONE thing and that is PRICE!!! I have yet to see a passenger standing at my gate waiting for the more expensive Delta Pilot to show to take them to XYZ as I push back.

Try again. Better yet, go look at the presentation given yesterday by Bastain. Suffice to say you are wrong.

 

[Hamfighter]

You'd think if those were the actual rates, there might be some mention of the 88/90.

 

[scarlet]

it just proves (in the future) a company can get a contract done in less than 5 years !

 

[jtf]

it just proves (in the future) a company can get a contract done in less than 5 years !

It proves nothing until it is ratified by the membership. Hopefully it really is good and doesn't screw everyone with scope. We need more raising the bar for sure.

 

[boknowsASA]

......

 

[doh]

Any any additional flying given away to the DCIs will get my "NO" vote only because "F&@$ No" is not an option.

That is the only correct answer.

 

[higney85]

Hold scope firm. It why "RJ" guys went to a regional. For the plans of a major. Sure, lifers will exist, but the vast majority are building a resume. It's only a 30% difference for CA's and 50-100% for FO's for the same "negotiated" equipment. Sure, I'm from the "entitlement" generation, but the mainline guys hold the career for their sons, daughters, grand kids, etc. One slip up and RJ's are flying coast to coast and destroying the profession.

Since when is "regional" a 3hour flight from MEM-SLC? That's a week long road-trip and now an RJ turn?

Come on guys!? That's a single turn on a 2 day.

Take it back. Give us a future and the mainline guys some numbers below them.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Hold scope firm. It why "RJ" guys went to a regional. For the plans of a major. Sure, lifers will exist, but the vast majority are building a resume. It's only a 30% difference for CA's and 50-100% for FO's for the same "negotiated" equipment. Sure, I'm from the "entitlement" generation, but the mainline guys hold the career for their sons, daughters, grand kids, etc. One slip up and RJ's are flying coast to coast and destroying the profession.

Since when is "regional" a 3hour flight from MEM-SLC? That's a week long road-trip and now an RJ turn?

Come on guys!? That's a single turn on a 2 day.

Take it back. Give us a future and the mainline guys some numbers below them.

Things that make you go Hmmm...

 

[CLARKGRSWOLD]

Hold scope firm. It why "RJ" guys went to a regional. For the plans of a major. Sure, lifers will exist, but the vast majority are building a resume. It's only a 30% difference for CA's and 50-100% for FO's for the same "negotiated" equipment. Sure, I'm from the "entitlement" generation, but the mainline guys hold the career for their sons, daughters, grand kids, etc. One slip up and RJ's are flying coast to coast and destroying the profession.

Since when is "regional" a 3hour flight from MEM-SLC? That's a week long road-trip and now an RJ turn?

Come on guys!? That's a single turn on a 2 day.

Take it back. Give us a future and the mainline guys some numbers below them.

I disagree.

 

[Chronic Jetlag]

You are absolutely correct it is for Delta Pilots to decide, which you so pointedly pointed out I am not. And believe me I'm reminded of that each and every time and I request a jump seat on MAINLINE or the days I walk through the terminal and say hello and simply get a smirk or the looking at his shoes...are they better at Delta....the shoes?

I just think it's funny that you are pounding your fist on the table saying NO MORE SCOPE RELIEF!!! Yet I have NEVER seen anyone on this board in all of it's millions of posts propose what they would be willing to sacrifice to purchase scope back. Instead we here things like "it's taking care of itself." Really how is it doing that? Because I've seen the seats and the weight of "scoped" aircraft get larger and larger and larger with each and every contract. But let me guess? This time is different right? Well I really truly and sincerely hope so. I would like a pair of those really nice shoes someday and as long as scope follows it's traditional path I'm not sure that I will. Rather what will happen is what always happens, you see management hold ALL the cards in bargaining. Each and every time ALPA hits a home run it's soon follow by chapter 11...read United circa 2000. The 50% will give into Top end scope protection, a bit of a raise, it's the same carrots every time.

What somewhat baffles me is that this has always been blamed on the "regional" pilot. That some how I am responsible for what YOU bargained away, weather in Bankruptcy or not. That you somehow expect me to quit going to work to feed my family for the benefit of yours. I have no illusions that your job... and shoes are better than mine, hence why most everyone is trying to get where you are.

So when the TA comes across your table for your review, don't be surprised when there is some twist on the numbers for larger jets to be operated by regional airlines. I can see it now, as your patting each other on the back for getting rid of all those 50 seaters a rather large increase in 86 seat jets will be the cost. You will most likely declare victory for not "really" giving in on scope.

In a week you will see what is at hand and as you so eloquently pointed out it will be decided by a DELTA pilot.

I was simply trying to start a dialog on what the DELTA pilot would be willing to use as currency to purchase back scope.

Great post but it's whether in bankruptcy and not "weather in bankruptcy..."

 

[waveflyer]

I disagree.

What do you disagree with??

 

[General Lee]

Hold scope firm. It why "RJ" guys went to a regional. For the plans of a major. Sure, lifers will exist, but the vast majority are building a resume. It's only a 30% difference for CA's and 50-100% for FO's for the same "negotiated" equipment. Sure, I'm from the "entitlement" generation, but the mainline guys hold the career for their sons, daughters, grand kids, etc. One slip up and RJ's are flying coast to coast and destroying the profession.

Since when is "regional" a 3hour flight from MEM-SLC? That's a week long road-trip and now an RJ turn?

Come on guys!? That's a single turn on a 2 day.

Take it back. Give us a future and the mainline guys some numbers below them.

I agree with you, I do. I want more mainline jobs, and more mainline aircraft. I think that will be happening shortly, especially with higher gas prices. The 50 seat RJs will be dwindling in numbers. But, will more 76 seaters fill those gaps? I don't think mainline pilots will ever be able to "take back" any of the current 76 seaters out there (many are owned by different companies), but I would like for us to fly future 76 seaters, or try to limit them. I do see management asking for more 76 seaters, inexchange for more 50 seaters leaving the fleet. They want to reduce the number of TOTAL RJs, while at the same time increasing the number of 76 seaters. So, the total RATIO of mainline vs DCI flying increase in mainline's favor (not so currently), but they want to trade out some of the 50s for 76 seaters. I have heard rumors of this for the TA, although I haven't seen it yet. There are also rumors of 717s or more A319s coming to the fleet, and I would have to see that in writing before I would exactly believe that. The more 76 seaters out there, the less of a need for 100 seaters. We all know that. BTW, I don't know if anyone could fill a 717 from MEM to SLC. Maybe the CR9 is the right plane for that route? It's a long thin route, and that's why some CR9s or E175s are probably needed. It would be nice if they were flown by mainline pilots, though.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[bizicmo]

I've seen it. It was really good. Then they went into bankruptcy and it got trashed. Eventually they merged with Northwest.

 

[xjgearbtch]

This is absolutely dead on. The man hit it out of the park.

I'd like to know who leaked these pay rates while holding back the scope details. Are we really nothing more than a bunch of housewives? "Oooohhh, look at the shiny baubles!!!"

Who leaked these rates and why????

He actually DIDN"T hit it out of the park. He obviously does not know about the intricacies of the Delta contract, yet feels compelled to comment. While some misguided Delta guys may try and blame connection pilots for their plight, most know that it is the Delta contract which sets that metric.

Connection ASMs are going away, and that right quickly. Something has to be there to be the accumulator. It will be the fabled 100 seat aircraft finally showing its teeth. 76 seat aircraft will take care of the small cities unable to make the 100 seaters profitable. 50 seat aircraft will become much more rare in the near future. More importantly, in this guy's opinion, is that Delta will regain the quality on its flights. I have yet to fly on a connection carrier where I have not been embarrassed at the way we treat our customers. Therein lies the key IMO.

Less exposure to connection and their employees, along with more exposure to mainline and our employees will mean a more dedicated customer to Delta--willing to pay that higher price for their ticket/accessories.

What is your definition of a small city? Bos-JFK, DFW-JFK, SLC-sfo, the list goes on and on. These 76 seat AC are replacing mainline. You need to take a closer look into what we are actually flying.

 

[Jar Jar]

What is your definition of a small city? Bos-JFK, DFW-JFK, SLC-sfo, the list goes on and on. These 76 seat AC are replacing mainline. You need to take a closer look into what we are actually flying.

LGA-ORD / JFK-ORD

On second thought, meh. 1st and 3rd most populous cities in the country, let the RJ pukes handle it. Who cares what our customers think.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

I just heard tonight 4%, 8%, 3%, 3%. But a 20% cut in profit sharing?

 

[Muskycat]

I just heard tonight 4%, 8%, 3%, 3%. But a 20% cut in profit sharing?

Profit sharing stays the same. But did you hear how long of a contract?

 

[General Lee]

I just heard tonight 4%, 8%, 3%, 3%. But a 20% cut in profit sharing?

Nobody really knows if that is true, but we heard that 5 days ago on the DALPA board. Are you sure you are a Delta pilot as you have stated? You just heard that last night???? Anyway, most people would vote that down, primarily because it supposedly took them only 2 days to negotiate pay. If that was the case, why wouldn't they have stayed negotiating a few more, or even a month more? We are currently 7 months early on the ammendable date. It looks like Delta wants this done for some reason, and that could be considered leverage to some. It may not even pass through the MEC, who has 7 days to look the TA over. If those are the rates, I hope they vote it down and back to the Negotiators.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Profit sharing stays the same. But did you hear how long of a contract?

If that rumor is true (???), then the first 4% would be date of signing (let's say July 1st?). The second 8% would be Jan 1st, 2013 (a day after the ammendable date (Dec 31st, 2012)---so essentially it would be a 12% raise the first year counting the ammendable date). Then 3% the next two January 1st's. That would be a 3 year contract, supposedly. I think that is way too low. The rumor may have been thrown out there as a floater to see the reaction, or to give a low ball offer first, then add percentage points and make people "relieved", even though the second offer is still low.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Muskycat]

Nobody really knows if that is true, but we heard that 5 days ago on the DALPA board. Are you sure you are a Delta pilot as you have continuelly stated? You just heard that last night???? Anyway, most people would vote that down, primarily because it supposedly took them only 2 days to negotiate pay. If that was the case, why wouldn't they have stayed negotiating a few more, or even a month more? We are currently 7 months early on the ammendable date. It looks like Delta wants this done for some reason, and that could be considered leverage to some. It may not even pass through the MEC, who has 7 days to look the TA over. If those are the rates, I hope they vote it down and back to the Negotiators.


Bye Bye---General Lee

It's true but not a typical contract in terms of length.

 

[General Lee]

It's true but not a typical contract in terms of length.

You are right, I don't know if I have ever seen a 3 year contract. And, did you say you know this is a "true" rumor? You mean the rumor is correct?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Muskycat]

You are right, I don't know if I have ever seen a 3 year contract. And, did you say you know this is a "true" rumor? You mean the rumor is correct?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Well maybe you've seen something for the first time.

 

[General Lee]

Well maybe you've seen something for the first time.

Ok, you've lost me again. Have you "seen" the actual TA and are you leaking the actual numbers? I'm not trying to mess with you, I just don't understand you.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[boknowsASA]

6 yr deal

19% DOS
2.9% each year
That's 33.5% after 6 yrs.

Scope:
76 seat max
Remove "widebody" clause
For every 1 new mainline A/C = 1 new DCI 76 seat A/C


Will see how close I got it.....