Delta Pilots:missery demands company!

[ATR-DRIVR]

Vortilon,

Points noted. I think alot of points are made out of pure emotion alot of times on these boards, however look at alot of post by Delta mainline pilots also. Surplus puts out for the most part, straight informational post from what I can see as do alot of people. EVERYONE here has points, opinions and thoughts about the industry and their own jobs. I agree with alot of his and others posts about things along with yours and many others on that side of the different fences. I think we all have friends on both mainline and ASA/CMR and want the best for all concerned. My own opinion is it would seem better for all three groups to be more aligned with each other in an effort to keep each others jobs during the current situation. Management, and THEM ONLY has put DAL in its current state.
Not you or us.

Just some thoughts.

 

[FDJ2]

First, neither the Delta pilots nor ALPA or anybody else paid our salaries. We were paid strike benefits in accordance with ALPA policy. We were and are grateful for those benefits, but don't try to make out that we got special treatment. Anyone on strike would have received the same.

Surplus, nice spin, but who authorized those early strike benefits? Who paid those early strike benefits? Did the NWA pilots receive early strike benefits when they went out on strike? Are you autimatically entitled to early and extended strike benefits, or does that have to be approved by other ALPA pilots and funded by other ALPA pilots?

 

[FDJ2]

. Yes, some of you gave money to the family fund; thank you. American pilots, who aren't even ALPA, gave way, way more than you did. It wasn't even close. In fact they gave more than anyone else and they don't keep reminding us either. In other words, you didn't do anything special so stop crowing. Like I told your buddy Vort, quit blowing your own horn. It's tacky.

Really Surplus, another nice spin with nothing to back it up. Can you provide the figures for who gave how much or are you pulling this out of your arse again? How did the CMR pilot family fund determine which pilot group a donation came in from? Did the APA contribute more than ALPA to your strike fund or strike benefits, which were voted on, approved and funded by ALPA pilots.

 

[surplus1]

You write with the voice of reason and maturity so you are entitled to a reasonable response, more than I can say for many of your peers.

Surplus,

If you want to talk about what's tacky, I'd say its making sweeping generalizations about 8500 pilots: "I know you have no experience with job actions". Not everyone at Delta came straight from the military. We have many pilots that worked at other carriers and have been involved in job actions. You are not the only airline that has been on strike, you know.

Like you, I hate the generalizations too, however members of my group have been subjected to far more of them and far different of them than what I said and you quoted above. I personally have been told that I was bitter because I din't make it with a major, that I was not educated, that I probably had a bunch of DUI's, that I was jealous because I didn't fly big airplanes, that I was trying to build flight time, and God knows what else. It's routine and it comes from all but a few of your group that write here and elsewhere, whenever you don't get your way. It sucks and I'm not surprised you feel the same when it comes your way. What was said by me was nothing compared to what you all say about us and what's more, it was true. Your group has never been on strike.

I do know that you have pilots from diverse locations and I also know how the RD's treat some of them. I also know that we've only had one strike and it was our first; we are not experts. When we want to learn how its done, we look to Minneapolis and Chicago, not Atlanta. Sorry, nothing personal, that's just how it is.

How many Delta pilots do you actually KNOW? How many are close friends? All you ever do is make generalizations about our group. And posting with 4-5 of us on the internet doesn't consititute knowing anyone.

About 100. Less than three, both retired. Most of the Delta pilots I have known personally were your representatives in your union. Members of your MEC or one of your many committees. The people that you chose to represent your interests. When I make generalizations about your group they are based on the Delta pilots I have known and those that I do not know, who write in this forum and the alpa forums. I'm aware that its a small percentage of the whole and it may not reflect the majority. However, those who write in most cases do reflect the views of those that are your representatives and those views I know quite well. I've been hearing them since the 80's.

I could certainly make sweeping remarks about your pilot group but I don't. It would be tacky.

You are the exception, rather than the rule. We get the sweeping remarks from you all with a high incidence of frequency.

To be perfectly honest, what I find the most tacky is the entilement attitude I keep seeing on this board. Comair would not be what it is without its relationship with Delta and the employees of CMR have done nothing but benefit from that relationship. You've had substantial route growth, new jet aircraft and better pay & working conditions than you'd have without it. Now I don't think CMR employees should bow down & kiss the feet of Delta per se, but I'm sick of Delta being portrayed in some sort of evil entity.

You know what, that is exactly what I find annoying. You think that Comair people have an attitude of "entitlement". I think the identical thing about Delta people. Every one of you that I have met, with the exception of two, has that attitude and not only with respect to Comair, but to nearly everyone. It's sought of an aura of "holier than thou" that just grates on ya. That feeling is not a Comair/Delta thing or a regional/mainline thing, it's an everybody thing. You all have a reputation in the industry, like the sky nazi's, but different. It reeks of arrogance and everybody senses it, major/regional/friend/foe. You're not all like that, but enough of you are, and its nothing new. It's part of your "culture". Only the "white hats" are similar, and what's left of them is now part of you.

Part of our culuture is that we do not like to be talked down to by anyone, we don't fear anyone, and we are not overly impressed by folks that are impressed by themselves. You can see why we have trouble getting along.

Just as you are sick of Delta being portrayed as an evil entity, I am sick of Comair being portrayed as an inferior entity that owes all to Delta. The fact is we don't owe you anything. Yes, we had a business relationship with Delta Air Lines from which we both benefited. However, we do not owe you our existence and we do not owe you our success. We were successful in our own right before we were purchased by your airline. The purchase has not improved our success. It has benefited your company but it has not benefited ours. Yes we are bigger than when you bought us. We would have been bigger yet had you not bought us. We are not angry at you pilots because of that, you had nothing to do with it (although listening to most of you, one would think you did). However, you need to understand that we are not blessed by you because of it either.

It happened because Delta is big and Comair is small. It did not happen because you were "better" but because you were richer and most of our employees wished that it had not happened at all, myself among them. We are living with it and we can't do anything about it. Just don't tell us that you did us a favor. What we have is NOT better because of you all, that belief is just part of your "attitude" that I complain about. We had a higher growth rate before Delta, we had as many new aircraft as we could absorb, without Delta; all of the aircraft we have now were ordered by us, and more, before Delta bought us and truthfully, our pilots would have a better contract if we didn't have to strike Delta, instead of Comair. All these wonderful things that you believe we have only because of you are merely a figment of your own agrandizement. You actually believe that the planet revolves around you. Honestly, it does not.

Most of the time I'm tolerant of that and I don't argue about those things, I try to stick to the issues that divide us. However, I'm human, and every now and then I get too tired of y'all's rhetoric and have to return some of your own medicine.

I make no apologies for that. I am not better or superior to anyone, but I am your equal in every respect. My knee bends only to my God. Now I know it is rumored far and wide that you all are in fact gods, but I've been in this game for a long time and you can trust me. It is definitely a rumor.

Again, nothing personal.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, nice spin, but who authorized those early strike benefits? Who paid those early strike benefits? Did the NWA pilots receive early strike benefits when they went out on strike? Are you autimatically entitled to early and extended strike benefits, or does that have to be approved by other ALPA pilots and funded by other ALPA pilots?

They were authorized by the Executive Board, in keeping with the Administration Manual. They were paid by the ALPA membership at large. The NWA pilots did not receive "early" strike benefits because NW is not a "regional" airline and the policy does not extend early benefits to a major. In fact, during their last strike the NW pilots did not receive ANY benefits because they were only on strike for 15 days.

No, we are not automatically entitled to early benefits. Only regionals are authorized early benefits and it requires approval of the Executive Board. Extended benefits always require approval of the Executive Board. We did not get anything that any other ALPA group in our category would not have received.

The last big strike with extended strike benefits was the EAL strike. Don't push this too far and ask me to remind you of what you did during that disaster. Quit while you think you're ahead.

 

[surplus1]

Vortilon,
Just some thoughts.

Yours is a voice of reason.

 

[standaman]

As a frequent reader of this section I must say this is one of the best posts I have seen. While I do not normally contribute much to this section (waiting for class date at Comair) because I don't completely understand nor am I really apart of the internal politics here. Creating an us versus them mentally is not going to help anybody especially myself and the pilots who will join the connection carriers in the future.

 

[surplus1]

Really Surplus, another nice spin with nothing to back it up. Can you provide the figures for who gave how much or are you pulling this out of your arse again?

As a matter of fact the figures are available, I won't post them

How did the CMR pilot family fund determine which pilot group a donation came in from?

That's easy. The APA took up a collection themselves and gave a single check on behalf of their group. It was nearly as much as the combined total from all other contributors.

Did the APA contribute more than ALPA to your strike fund or strike benefits, which were voted on, approved and funded by ALPA pilots.

The APA did not contribute anything to our strike benefits. ALPA pilots contributed what they were required to contribute based on ALPA policy.

You started this so I'll tell you what I think. The point is not how much was given or who gave it. The point is that among all those who gave and to whom we are forever grateful, the ONLY group that EVER reminds us that they gave, is the Delta pilots. You are truly unique and frankly, your behavior is shameful.

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

When I speak of the relationship between CMR & DAL I am speaking of the fact that CMR generally feeds Delta in CVG. THAT is the relationship that has allowed your company to thrive. I am not speaking of the ownership or non-ownership of the company.

You actually think Comair's growth is independent of Delta and had nothing to do with codesharing with Delta all these years? You could have made it on your own without that? You could have had the money to buy hundreds of RJs and build a large terminal on your own WITHOUT the money created by the relationship without Delta?

Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to be what you are stating.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

When I speak of the relationship between CMR & DAL I am speaking of the fact that CMR generally feeds Delta in CVG. THAT is the relationship that has allowed your company to thrive. I am not speaking of the ownership or non-ownership of the company.

You actually think Comair's growth is independent of Delta and had nothing to do with codesharing with Delta all these years? You could have made it on your own without that? You could have had the money to buy hundreds of RJs and build a large terminal on your own WITHOUT the money created by the relationship without Delta?

There is no question whatever that the business relationship that existed between Delta and Comair (prior to the purchase) was advantageous, to both companies. Roughly sixty pecent of Comair's traffic never rode on Delta, the other 40% did. That is still close to the ratio. So who feeds whom is debatable.

We both know that Delta is a huge company and by comparision Comair has always been a small company. Obviously we benefited more from the business relationship than Delta did. I have never denied that.

Now, if we had not done business with Delta, we would have done business with someone else. Whether or not that would have been equally beneficial I truly don't know. We could also have ventured off on our own, bought ValueJet and become a much bigger competitor of yours than AirTran is today. That I happen to think, would have been more beneficial to us that being purchased by Delta. We had the money and the know-how, instead the guru's reduced their risk, took the money from Delta and rode off into the sunset. Your executives do the same thing.

What's important about all this? You guys, the Delta pilots, seem to think that our Company's business relationship with your company, is a reason for us to be beholding to you. It is not. We had no business with you, nor you with us. The corporations had business with each other. You all, as a pilot group, had nothing to do with the business relationship and we, as a pilot group, owe you nothing because of it. That's what I'm saying.

I hope that's not as cryptic.

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

Now I understand where you are coming from on that subject. Thanks for the clear explanation.

Respectfully,

 

[FDJ2]

So you won't post the figures Surplus. How about a source? Did the APA contribute more than your fellow ALPA pilots when they authorized your strike benefits and paid you generous strike benefits as well as contributing to the family fund. Perhaps we should just take your word for it?

ALPA pilots paid you early strike benefits, which are not available to mainline pilots by the way, not because they had to, but because they elected to. The generous strike benefits afforded to the CMR pilots was not an automatic entitlement, it was authorized through the vote of other ALPA pilots. What is shameful is you false sense of entitlement and your lack of appreciation for the contributions made by your fellow ALPA pilots.

 

[General Lee]

FDJ2,


I have incurred the same attitude from some of these people for as long as I have been on this board. We (ALPA) helped them in their time of need, and when our people needed help (our furloughs after 9-11)--all they got was "sure, we'll help, as long as you give us....."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

FDJ2 & General,

We are extremely grateful to our "fellow ALPA pilots" for the assistance they gave us. What we do not like is your opinion(s) that fellow ALPA pilots is spelled D-E-L-T-A. It is not.

We also can't help but notice the you, the Delta pilots, are the ONLY pilots in the ALPA than constantly remind us of what you "gave". If you had given willingly, like the other did, you would have no need for the constant reminders. Again, YOU are the ONLY one's that do that.

YOU, as you make clear by your remarks, believe that you are "entitled" because you gave and that you are more entitled that any or all of the others, who make no such claims.

YOUR group has a history of doing this. During the Eastern Strike, YOURS was the MEC that complained constantly about what you "gave" to the rEAL pilots, when in fact there were more Delta pilots that refused to pay the EAL assessment that the entire CMR list at the time. YOU were the ONLY major airline in ALPA that could not find a way to hire any of the rEAL pilots, excepting two scabs. Even tiny Comair managed to hire more rEAL pilots than mighty Delta. When they needed you, you made excuses. United didn't, NWA didn't, USAir didn't, YOU did.

YOURs is the pilot group that constantly reminds the National Association of how much YOU pay in dues, and that frequently threatens to take your marbles and leave when you can't get what you want immediately.

Like I said, yours is the group that has a reputation for throwing you weight around based on your money, rather than your know-how or solidarity. Yours is the group that comes up with duplicitous and expensive tracking systems for yourself and then demands that the rest of us reimburse you, while you reject tried and true systems such as those produced by the NW pilots.

Yes fellas, YOU have a reputation and some of us know what it is and are not afraid to reveal it. You are hardly in a position to criticize us. I don't like embarrasing the decent Delta pilots of whom there are a great many, but you two need to be told the truth.

We thank those of you that gave and remain silent about it like the other 90% of ALPA. To those of you that constantly ring your own bell and demand special treatment I say ....... bug off.

 

[letthebigdogeat]

.....'Nuff said....AMEN!

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1 and letthebigdogeat,


Whatever dudes. I was there--during your strike. I saw what happened, and even during our C2K negotiations---I saw your guys wanting date of hire. I saw it! You can't hide. I saw everything, and I saw our guys trying to support you the best way they could---legally. We (and other ALPA carriers---which I consistantly say by the way....) overwhelmingly thought you would win, and we were hoping you would. We all spent a heck of a lot more money this time around than we did for the rEAL strike----and I didn't hear one guy get mad about doing it. Then, drum roll please----you lost. It sucked, and we all were injured--including our company losing over $1 billion in the ordeal. But, we showed you that we, along with other ALPA carriers, were for your cause and tried to support you the best we could. A lot of our guys that are now on furlough wrote checks for YOU.

Then 9-11 came, and we lost a bunch of passengers and had to furlough. Now it was our furloughs time of need----and what did you do to help just a fraction of our pilots? Drum roll please.......You told our MEC that you wanted something in return for helping our guys. You WANTED something---even though this was our guys TIME OF NEED. You wanted more 70 seaters, you wanted less scope, you you you you. The ASA guys didn't care---they helped our guys---they put them AT THE BOTTOM---which didn't hurt anyone there. You guys claim "Oh, sorry, we can't help you---it is a POLICY---we can't help that it is A POLICY to resign your number, even though our sister airline can do it......" What a joke. We (along with others) helped you out---and you couldn't return the favor. Oh yeah---why couldn't you do that for furloughed USAir guys etc..?? Well, USAir doesn't OWN YOU. Why did ASA allow it? They didn't allow USAir guys to not resign their numbers---only Delta guys. That is your achillies heal. Oh yeah, it was your management..... How about ASA's management? Oh, that's right---you had to bring in your buddies from Sanford---to keep that money train running.....You had to allow seminole drivers access to your RJs before ex-737 drivers.... That won't be forgotten--and I wasn't even furloughed.....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jim]

FDJ2 & General,

We are extremely grateful to our "fellow ALPA pilots" for the assistance they gave us.

Yet you pay all the ALPA pilots that helped you back with the RDJC..is that's your idea of graditude?

 

[General Lee]

Jim,


They got three years of unbelievable growth---many many new RJs and upgrades. Now, the passengers are back--and they want that growth to continue--even though we still have close to 1000 guys on the street. (Many who were Comair pilots) I totally expect them to also write a "mean, nasty" letter to other people---including:

1. Dave Neeleman--CEO of Jetblue---for hurting their earning potential with the new E190 rates.

2. Santa Clause---for not giving them new 737s last Xmas

They will threaten everyone.......watch out Jim! Watch out! Becareful what you say!!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Prattle!

 

[standaman]

That is your achillies heal. Oh yeah, it was your management..... How about ASA's management? Oh, that's right---you had to bring in your buddies from Sanford---to keep that money train running.....You had to allow seminole drivers access to your RJs before ex-737 drivers.... That won't be forgotten--and I wasn't even furloughed.....



Bye Bye--General Lee

General

I want to start out with that I respect your posts and point of view. I just want to be clear that you don't have a personal problem with the seminole drivers from Sanford since I happen to be one. I believe your anger is directed toward Comair management in this post. I am just checking to make sure. For I have gone to war with several here at flightinfo who call us second class. Just my nature to defend my own as you do.