Delta Pilots:missery demands company!

[FDJ2]

Not true. Bob Arnold was the first person at that meeting to refuse to sign the "agreement." Then J.C. Lawson commented that if Bob Arnold was not going to sign the agreement - he could not sign the agreement either. Bill Buergey in typical Buergey fashion then pounded the table and stormed out of the room slamming the door behind him after berating the Connection MEC Chairmen for "sending the wrong message."

FDJ2 - you might be careful posting allegations on this board when some of us have first hand knowledge of some of this history.

~~~^~~~

Fins, I made no statement regarding Arnold, the fact remains that Lawson and the CMR pilots refused to join with the DAL pilots in signing a mutual support agreement. Nothing you have stated contradicts that fact, it only reinforces it. But I find it interesting, that since you CLAIM to have first hand knowledge of the event, that you ought to know that Will Buergey was not the DAL MEC Chairman during our C2K contract negotiations when we sought to join with ASA and CMR in a mutual support agreement, but rather Chuck Giambusso was our Chairman at the time. So much for your credibility and your first hand knowledge. Nice try though. Now go back to your room, get together with your RJDC buddies, and try to spin another tale.

 

[Vortilon]

The silence is deafening.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Chuck Giambusso was our Chairman at the time.

Like the boy in orthopaedic shoes said - " I stand corrected "

At least I admit it. It was Giambusso who stormed out of the room and acted like a two year old.

 

[FDJ2]

Like the boy in orthopaedic shoes said - " I stand corrected "

Well, that's mighty big of you to admit. Of course I would characterize Chuck Giambusso's actions as righteous indignation. The facts are what they are, that despite the fact that the CMR pilots refused to sign a mutual support agreement, the Delta pilots, along with other ALPA pilots, extended that support to the CMR pilots during their time of neeed. That support not only came in the form of early strike benefits, which are not afforded to mainline pilots, but also use of Delta pilot strike facilities, hundreds of Delta pilot volunteers monitoring struck work compliance, financial support for the CMR pilot family fund and walking the picket line side by side. One can only guess at what the support would have been from the CMR pilots. Perhaps their refusal to support the Delta pilots would have led to a stampede as they stepped all over themselves trying to get in a mainline jet.

 

[InclusiveScope]

FDJ2,

One of the big issues on the table during C2K was scope. The ASA and CMR MEC Chairmen asked the DAL MEC what they were going after in terms of scope. The DAL MEC said they would inform the ASA and CMR MECs in time for "damage control". Do you really expect a mutual aid pact when one of your strike issues might have been restrictions on us? What are you smoking? I'm sorry, but I will not support you restricting my career!

 

[Vortilon]

Inclusive,

Nobody is restricting your career...if you want to fly planes bigger than 70 seats you can apply to many other carriers.

(I know that was low, but c'mon, you were wide open)

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

The last time I checked the Delta pilots and the rest of us in ALPA paid your salaries while you walked the line. Delta pilots made sure there was no struck work flying. Sorry you didn't feel "supported".

Would you like me to say we couldn't have done it without the Delta pilots? This is a dead horse, so quit beating it. Every time you guys aren't doing well in an arguement you bring this up.

First, neither the Delta pilots nor ALPA or anybody else paid our salaries. We were paid strike benefits in accordance with ALPA policy. We were and are grateful for those benefits, but don't try to make out that we got special treatment. Anyone on strike would have received the same.

As for Delta pilots making sure there was no struck work flying. I agree that Delta pilots did not fly struck work. I agree that you paid attention to not doing that. It was not because you were doing us a big favor, you were just making sure that you wouldn't be called scabs. In case you didn't notice, nobody else flew struck work either.

Now I realize that you all have no experience with job actions, but you're still smart enough to know that the things that happened, happen in every strike. Everyone is eligible for strike benefits and gets them if the strike lasts long enough. No one flys struck work, that's normal practice. Quit blowing your own horn. It's tacky.

 

[On Your Six]

Tacky is Comair not supporting Delta mainline furloughees unlike sister company ASA. Can someone explain why one company would treat the furloughees one way and the other another way despite both being owned by the same parent? If you can't trust your "family" then....

 

[surplus1]

Don't forget that the CMR pilots also refused to sign a mutual support agreement with the Delta pilots. Despite that, the Delta pilots, along with all other ALPA pilots, stepped up to the plate when the CMR pilots needed help.

You have a nack for producing proposed "mutual agreements" for your own support. When ever YOU want something you call it "mutual". You are correct though it was refused. Let them tell you why it was refused some time.

Incidentally, your MEC refused to sign a mutual support agreement with CMR on two previous occassions, and I won't get your Chairmen mixed up, they were Shelton and Brown. It didn't bother you any when you said no. Why does it bother you if we said no?

The Delta pilots didn't do any more than anyone else during our strike. Yes, a handful of you walked the line with us .... right up to the day you got your own contract, after which we never saw another one of you. Yes, some of you gave money to the family fund; thank you. American pilots, who aren't even ALPA, gave way, way more than you did. It wasn't even close. In fact they gave more than anyone else and they don't keep reminding us either. In other words, you didn't do anything special so stop crowing. Like I told your buddy Vort, quit blowing your own horn. It's tacky.

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

If you want to talk about what's tacky, I'd say its making sweeping generalizations about 8500 pilots: "I know you have no experience with job actions". Not everyone at Delta came straight from the military. We have many pilots that worked at other carriers and have been involved in job actions. You are not the only airline that has been on strike, you know.

How many Delta pilots do you actually KNOW? How many are close friends? All you ever do is make generalizations about our group. And posting with 4-5 of us on the internet doesn't consititute knowing anyone.

I could certainly make sweeping remarks about your pilot group but I don't. It would be tacky.

To be perfectly honest, what I find the most tacky is the entilement attitude I keep seeing on this board. Comair would not be what it is without its relationship with Delta and the employees of CMR have done nothing but benefit from that relationship. You've had substantial route growth, new jet aircraft and better pay & working conditions than you'd have without it. Now I don't think CMR employees should bow down & kiss the feet of Delta per se, but I'm sick of Delta being portrayed in some sort of evil entity.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Vortilon,

Points noted. I think alot of points are made out of pure emotion alot of times on these boards, however look at alot of post by Delta mainline pilots also. Surplus puts out for the most part, straight informational post from what I can see as do alot of people. EVERYONE here has points, opinions and thoughts about the industry and their own jobs. I agree with alot of his and others posts about things along with yours and many others on that side of the different fences. I think we all have friends on both mainline and ASA/CMR and want the best for all concerned. My own opinion is it would seem better for all three groups to be more aligned with each other in an effort to keep each others jobs during the current situation. Management, and THEM ONLY has put DAL in its current state.
Not you or us.

Just some thoughts.

 

[FDJ2]

First, neither the Delta pilots nor ALPA or anybody else paid our salaries. We were paid strike benefits in accordance with ALPA policy. We were and are grateful for those benefits, but don't try to make out that we got special treatment. Anyone on strike would have received the same.

Surplus, nice spin, but who authorized those early strike benefits? Who paid those early strike benefits? Did the NWA pilots receive early strike benefits when they went out on strike? Are you autimatically entitled to early and extended strike benefits, or does that have to be approved by other ALPA pilots and funded by other ALPA pilots?

 

[FDJ2]

. Yes, some of you gave money to the family fund; thank you. American pilots, who aren't even ALPA, gave way, way more than you did. It wasn't even close. In fact they gave more than anyone else and they don't keep reminding us either. In other words, you didn't do anything special so stop crowing. Like I told your buddy Vort, quit blowing your own horn. It's tacky.

Really Surplus, another nice spin with nothing to back it up. Can you provide the figures for who gave how much or are you pulling this out of your arse again? How did the CMR pilot family fund determine which pilot group a donation came in from? Did the APA contribute more than ALPA to your strike fund or strike benefits, which were voted on, approved and funded by ALPA pilots.

 

[surplus1]

You write with the voice of reason and maturity so you are entitled to a reasonable response, more than I can say for many of your peers.

Surplus,

If you want to talk about what's tacky, I'd say its making sweeping generalizations about 8500 pilots: "I know you have no experience with job actions". Not everyone at Delta came straight from the military. We have many pilots that worked at other carriers and have been involved in job actions. You are not the only airline that has been on strike, you know.

Like you, I hate the generalizations too, however members of my group have been subjected to far more of them and far different of them than what I said and you quoted above. I personally have been told that I was bitter because I din't make it with a major, that I was not educated, that I probably had a bunch of DUI's, that I was jealous because I didn't fly big airplanes, that I was trying to build flight time, and God knows what else. It's routine and it comes from all but a few of your group that write here and elsewhere, whenever you don't get your way. It sucks and I'm not surprised you feel the same when it comes your way. What was said by me was nothing compared to what you all say about us and what's more, it was true. Your group has never been on strike.

I do know that you have pilots from diverse locations and I also know how the RD's treat some of them. I also know that we've only had one strike and it was our first; we are not experts. When we want to learn how its done, we look to Minneapolis and Chicago, not Atlanta. Sorry, nothing personal, that's just how it is.

How many Delta pilots do you actually KNOW? How many are close friends? All you ever do is make generalizations about our group. And posting with 4-5 of us on the internet doesn't consititute knowing anyone.

About 100. Less than three, both retired. Most of the Delta pilots I have known personally were your representatives in your union. Members of your MEC or one of your many committees. The people that you chose to represent your interests. When I make generalizations about your group they are based on the Delta pilots I have known and those that I do not know, who write in this forum and the alpa forums. I'm aware that its a small percentage of the whole and it may not reflect the majority. However, those who write in most cases do reflect the views of those that are your representatives and those views I know quite well. I've been hearing them since the 80's.

I could certainly make sweeping remarks about your pilot group but I don't. It would be tacky.

You are the exception, rather than the rule. We get the sweeping remarks from you all with a high incidence of frequency.

To be perfectly honest, what I find the most tacky is the entilement attitude I keep seeing on this board. Comair would not be what it is without its relationship with Delta and the employees of CMR have done nothing but benefit from that relationship. You've had substantial route growth, new jet aircraft and better pay & working conditions than you'd have without it. Now I don't think CMR employees should bow down & kiss the feet of Delta per se, but I'm sick of Delta being portrayed in some sort of evil entity.

You know what, that is exactly what I find annoying. You think that Comair people have an attitude of "entitlement". I think the identical thing about Delta people. Every one of you that I have met, with the exception of two, has that attitude and not only with respect to Comair, but to nearly everyone. It's sought of an aura of "holier than thou" that just grates on ya. That feeling is not a Comair/Delta thing or a regional/mainline thing, it's an everybody thing. You all have a reputation in the industry, like the sky nazi's, but different. It reeks of arrogance and everybody senses it, major/regional/friend/foe. You're not all like that, but enough of you are, and its nothing new. It's part of your "culture". Only the "white hats" are similar, and what's left of them is now part of you.

Part of our culuture is that we do not like to be talked down to by anyone, we don't fear anyone, and we are not overly impressed by folks that are impressed by themselves. You can see why we have trouble getting along.

Just as you are sick of Delta being portrayed as an evil entity, I am sick of Comair being portrayed as an inferior entity that owes all to Delta. The fact is we don't owe you anything. Yes, we had a business relationship with Delta Air Lines from which we both benefited. However, we do not owe you our existence and we do not owe you our success. We were successful in our own right before we were purchased by your airline. The purchase has not improved our success. It has benefited your company but it has not benefited ours. Yes we are bigger than when you bought us. We would have been bigger yet had you not bought us. We are not angry at you pilots because of that, you had nothing to do with it (although listening to most of you, one would think you did). However, you need to understand that we are not blessed by you because of it either.

It happened because Delta is big and Comair is small. It did not happen because you were "better" but because you were richer and most of our employees wished that it had not happened at all, myself among them. We are living with it and we can't do anything about it. Just don't tell us that you did us a favor. What we have is NOT better because of you all, that belief is just part of your "attitude" that I complain about. We had a higher growth rate before Delta, we had as many new aircraft as we could absorb, without Delta; all of the aircraft we have now were ordered by us, and more, before Delta bought us and truthfully, our pilots would have a better contract if we didn't have to strike Delta, instead of Comair. All these wonderful things that you believe we have only because of you are merely a figment of your own agrandizement. You actually believe that the planet revolves around you. Honestly, it does not.

Most of the time I'm tolerant of that and I don't argue about those things, I try to stick to the issues that divide us. However, I'm human, and every now and then I get too tired of y'all's rhetoric and have to return some of your own medicine.

I make no apologies for that. I am not better or superior to anyone, but I am your equal in every respect. My knee bends only to my God. Now I know it is rumored far and wide that you all are in fact gods, but I've been in this game for a long time and you can trust me. It is definitely a rumor.

Again, nothing personal.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, nice spin, but who authorized those early strike benefits? Who paid those early strike benefits? Did the NWA pilots receive early strike benefits when they went out on strike? Are you autimatically entitled to early and extended strike benefits, or does that have to be approved by other ALPA pilots and funded by other ALPA pilots?

They were authorized by the Executive Board, in keeping with the Administration Manual. They were paid by the ALPA membership at large. The NWA pilots did not receive "early" strike benefits because NW is not a "regional" airline and the policy does not extend early benefits to a major. In fact, during their last strike the NW pilots did not receive ANY benefits because they were only on strike for 15 days.

No, we are not automatically entitled to early benefits. Only regionals are authorized early benefits and it requires approval of the Executive Board. Extended benefits always require approval of the Executive Board. We did not get anything that any other ALPA group in our category would not have received.

The last big strike with extended strike benefits was the EAL strike. Don't push this too far and ask me to remind you of what you did during that disaster. Quit while you think you're ahead.