Delta Pilots:missery demands company!

[73belair]

73belair,


You can tell me that Comair was NOT making money before DAL bought them? Or that SKW is NOT making money now?

We are a regional airline we do not pretend to want to compete with A319s. If we did (well not us, but SKW or something) would buy A319s.

If you look back I never said that ASA/Comair was keeping Delta afloat. I said that if we are making money for the company, why should we have to take a pay cut? Seems the equation between getting paid and making money is working over here. However at Delta its not. And that even if we did take a cut it would be pocket change for Delta.

The industry is changing in a big way. People used to fly Delta and pay more to do it for the great service. They felt like they were treated better than other places. Now? No way. Jetblue and (even) Song etc. treat their passengers much better. The planes are newer, they have TVs to pass the time, and the tickets are cheaper. Why wouldn't they fly like that?

But that "cheapness" it gotten through low overhead, i.e. paying the pilots less. It’s an industry change and it s_u_c_k_s!

We will continue to feed, and you will continue to do the long hauls that we feed you. I just doubt we will ever see the kind of pay rates that Delta pilots have experienced in the past.
I have no doubt that Delta will get some kind of 100 seat airplanes and replace the 50 seat rj on all of those routes. (that plane is not nice to be in that long)

 

[General Lee]

Song makes money for Delta (Grinstein and Salvaggio said that in public media)---and I fly Song about every other flight. I don't deserve a pay cut----or maybe just a 1/2 pay cut......


Yes, the industry is changing. We WILL BE taking pay cuts---probably large ones. I haven't flown with one Captain that has stated "Full pay to the last day." It is economic reality---and most of us are prepared for that.

I know this whole deal $ucks for all of us--but hopefully it will all be good in the end--when we turn 60.....fingers crossed....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[rgd]

I have flown the CR7 on the DFW-DEN and DFW-PHX for ASA for all of June and July and those flights have not been full, at least the ones I have crewed. Throw out the non-rev's and its even worse. I agree General that it's sad that we have to have a thread like this, but I don't see it getting any better anytime soon.

 

[Palerider957]

What do you think an ASA strike would do to DAL? I'm ready for a long walk out - are you?[/QUOTE]




Amen brother......praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.....

 

[FDJ2]

Neither ASA or CMR get their revenue from the passengers in their aircraft, they get their revenue from the money Delta pays them for providing the small jet lift. If the RJs were completely empty ASA and CMR would probably still be profitable, because they can count on Delta forking over the check to compensate them for the flight. Now whether Delta is profitable using those high cost jets is another story.

 

[WSurf]

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[standaman]

I don't understand

Neither ASA or CMR get their revenue from the passengers in their aircraft, they get their revenue from the money Delta pays them for providing the small jet lift. If the RJs were completely empty ASA and CMR would probably still be profitable, because they can count on Delta forking over the check to compensate them for the flight. Now whether Delta is profitable using those high cost jets is another story.

I thought ASA and Comair were Delta. I don't believe they have a fee for departure system there. Basically what you are saying is Delta writes a check to Delta. If somebody needs to educate me please but I don't get it.

 

[FDJ2]

I thought ASA and Comair were Delta.

ASA and CMR are wholly owned subsidiaries. Delta owns all the equity in both companies, but they both must compete against the other non wholly owned carriers for DCI contracts. ASA and CMR are then paid by Delta for the small jet lift they provide, they do not get their revenue from the passengers.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Sigh....

General, WHO puts who on what routes? Does DALPA, ASA ALPA, or CMR ALPA have ANY say about where and what flies what route? I don't think any of us have any input on that. WE didn't volunteer to put the 70's on any route. DAL
put on on them. You SHOULD have them!!! You don't!! I sure as he!! don't want to sit in an rj for for than an hour personally. I don't even want to fly the thing. I prefer my 'widebody'.
You say that DAL can 'manipulate' us to make us look profitable, (we aren't keeping DAL afloat but we are putting in money otherwise they would have dumped ASA and CMR a while ago) If so then they can sure as he!! make 'you' look unprofitable. Can go both ways I think.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Song makes money for Delta (Grinstein and Salvaggio said that in public media)---and I fly Song about every other flight. I don't deserve a pay cut----or maybe just a 1/2 pay cut......

Bye Bye--General Lee

So let me get this straight.... When management says that ASA and CMR are profitable, they are manipulating the books. When management says that Song is profitable, it is the gospel truth. I guess it boils down to management is right when it benefits GL and management is wrong when it doesn't benefit GL.

 

[michael707767]

I have to say, though as a Delta pilot, I found that article embarassing. We only had the wages we had in the past because the financial situation at the airline could support it. Well, Delta cannot support those wages anymore, and so it has to change. Guess what, thats the nature of this industry. I know many, many Delta pilots who are living at the very edge of what they make. You can't do that in this industry. Things go up and they come back down. You can't live your live and buy a house based on the good times. If you do.......you're a fool.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Sadly, wise words Mike.

 

[73belair]

I have to say, though as a Delta pilot, I found that article embarassing. We only had the wages we had in the past because the financial situation at the airline could support it. Well, Delta cannot support those wages anymore, and so it has to change. Guess what, thats the nature of this industry. I know many, many Delta pilots who are living at the very edge of what they make. You can't do that in this industry. Things go up and they come back down. You can't live your live and buy a house based on the good times. If you do.......you're a fool.

Thank you!

 

[MJG]

So let me get this straight, DELTA pilots expect COMAIR and ASA pilots to also take a pay cut because it's "only fair to share in the pain". WTF OVER !!


To any mainline pilot: You're more than welcome to come and share in the pain that goes along with every single day slaving away at the regionals. In fact why don't we take your pay cut and use that to give these poor FO's a pay raise so they can afford to put food on the tables for their families. Maybe then with a pay raise some of these FO's with families can finally put the applications for the Family Federal Assistance Program back in the filing cabinet and afford to buy their kids a few meager Christmas gifts this year. Heck with any luck and a little "sharing of the pain" from the allmighty Delta pilots some of these guys might actually be able to quit their second jobs. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[wil]

There was a time when Doctors, lawyers and Pilots were one of the few employee groups that could work for someone else and get rich. At least for the pilots right now those days are coming to a close. Still can make a good living but not banking cash every month. And, like many have written we are our own worst enemy. We want the latest gadget, car, Mcmansion, et cetera.

I feel for anyone facing impending salary cuts, even the F.O who is making 200k. Chances are he/she is almost as broke as me but on a different level.

Well, maybe not, but no one in this industry who has sacrificed so much to get a job should be made to feel that their back is against the wall. Sniping at each other only plays into management's hands. And attacking General Lee does nothing but help Boss Hogg Cheers, Wil

 

[wms]

In the regional airline publication, I forget the name, ASA and CA both reported substantial profits. DAL doesn't report financials for the WOs, but they report them independently

 

[wms]

Remember also that we are separate companies. DALPA can't negitiate our pay and DAL can't cut our pay. ASA and CA have contracts with their respective companies. They would have to be renegotiated, maybe at DAL's request. We've already shown with the RFP that we won't negotiate a pay cut. We didn't do it for additional airplanes and we won't do it now.The furloughs are coming back regardless of negotiations, and concessions from us would be so insignificant that they wouldn't have an impact.

 

[100LL... Again!]

QUOTE:
"We all thought we might get to that elusive Major someday and then buy a big house and get treated with respect"

Come on now. You're really that insecure??

It should only matter if you respect yourself.

What you are pining for, my friend, is status, plain and simple.

If you can achieve it, go ahead, but:

I have realized that many pilots think that their profession shoould be immune from the laws of supply and demand.

Do we think we're nobility or something?

Get as much $$$ as you can, for as long as you can. That's the way we do it here, but when the ride is finally over, we must have the maturity to realize that we've been lucky all along.

People spout and spout about what they 'deserve' until I'm sick of hearing the word come out of their pie holes. What about all the folks who have worked longer and harder than you/me? Don't they 'deserve' at least what we have?

So it really is not a matter of justice, for many of us. It is simple greed couched as though it was an issue of right and wrong.

Who was the guy who thinks that the mainline guys are 'holding the bar up for your future'. Stop kidding yourself. That ain't why they're doing it. They will keep pushing for better pay even if it meant you got less. That's capitalsm, baby!

The factors that are to blame, one again:

1) Deregulation, which opened the door to more competition.

2) Perception, on the part of the work force that pilot jobs would be available.

3) Excess entrants into the profession, making it an employer's market,

and the big one:


The stupidity, short-sightedness, and arrogance of ALPA and many mainline pilots in thinking that their cushy spots were safe forever, and simple things like scope and other contract provisions were all it would take to protect themselves.

This was a Maginot Line strategy, and it is failing.

ALPA's inability or unwillingness to keep the pilots in this country truly unified is the real reason.

No one wanted to take any short-term inconveniences or costs to plug these holes in the system.

We have sold out tomorrow for a little more today, and it predictably did not work out well.

For many of us, management will soon say "Check and Mate", and that will be that.

Don't flame me, cause I'm suffering this situation too. When times were good, I knew it might end at any moment. Now that it has, I'm not gonna b1tch about what I 'deserve'.

Management has played the game well, and knowsthe rulebook. We have played an emotional game, and been veryr prickly about our image.

Think mgmt=WWII Germany. Victory at all costs.

Pilots= WWII France. Testy, unable to really fight, angry that they have to.


I liken it to the Wal-Mart effect.

When Wal-Mart first moves to a small town, everyone starts shopping there for the lower prices (sometimes much lower). Then, local businesses start to close up shop. Then the townspeople are upset about this and starts to think that other people need to so business with the local shops. (They, of course, cannot. They "need" the cheaper prices, but those other folks can "aafford" to keep tha locals stores alive). See? What's good for you ain't good for me.

Then, all the people who work for the local merchants are out of work, and the onlt profit being made in town is Wal-Mart.

This is very similar to our profession's current state, and the main reason we should accept our guilt in bringing much of it about.

 

[michael707767]

So let me get this straight.... When management says that ASA and CMR are profitable, they are manipulating the books. When management says that Song is profitable, it is the gospel truth. I guess it boils down to management is right when it benefits GL and management is wrong when it doesn't benefit GL.

Ease up, I think GLs post was a little sarcastic. His point is if what the company is saying is true, that ASA CMR and Song are making money, why should anyone flying Song have to take a pay cut, at least on the Song legs. I also hear the Shuttle is making money, as is international, so why should they take pay cuts? And before you get all pissy about what I just wrote, relax, I am being sarcastic.

No one in the Delta MEC is asking you guys to take pay cuts. Just the opposite in fact. Our current MEC is smart enough to know that the more you cost, the less pressure there is to shift flying to the regionals. Our MEC is asking that everyone at Delta share the pain, from management to the banks to the aircraft lessors. Pilot pay cuts alone will not be enough, though they are a large piece of the puzzle.

 

[bvt1151]

Our current MEC is smart enough to know that the more you cost, the less pressure there is to shift flying to the regionals.

That's the take-home message here. For all of those who are calling for DCI to share in the pain need to understand this.