180ToTheMarker
12 months of October
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2003
- Posts
- 658
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Delta Pilots:missery demands company!
- Thread starter spinproof
- Start date
- Watchers 29
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Publishers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,736
banks and aircraft lessors
Explain to me why banks and lessors should share the pain in this deal. First of all, most of the leases are merely financing leases not operating lease agreements.
The fact is that this is not about sharing pain, this is about remaining competitive in a market that is very cut throat.
The banks and leasing companies did not sign up to be part of the competitive market, they provided a service and are usually willing to work with their clients. That does not mean they are there to share in the losses.
Explain to me why banks and lessors should share the pain in this deal. First of all, most of the leases are merely financing leases not operating lease agreements.
The fact is that this is not about sharing pain, this is about remaining competitive in a market that is very cut throat.
The banks and leasing companies did not sign up to be part of the competitive market, they provided a service and are usually willing to work with their clients. That does not mean they are there to share in the losses.
BlackCoffee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 114
Wait till ASA goes on strike some time next year. I think Delta pilots will change their tune when they see how important ASA is to their operation. If anything Delta should be encouraging a raise for you guys. At your current rates you already share enough pain. Someone needs to write an article about what a 23% cut would do to a 10 year RJ captain. The public needs to know that!
michael707767
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,640
Publishers said:
Why? Simple. Contracts signed with the lessors were signed during different times. For some aircraft, Delta is paying 5 times the current market lease value. If Delta goes to bankruptcy, they will get these leases changed. If the lessors negotiate outside of BK, they will get a better deal than they could get in BK. Same goes for the banks. Mortgage companys will often renegotiate deals, or take lower payments for a time if you loose your job for the simple reason that getting something is better than getting nothing. Same goes here. If Delta goes to BK, unsecured loans could be wiped out. Better to renegotiate outside of BK to a deal that Delta can afford, and therefore get most or all of your money back.
michael707767
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,640
as a tag on to why a leasing company should renegotiate, here is an article I just found.
Delta's Pains Extend to Planes
Provided By: The Atlanta Business Chronicle
Last Modified: 7/19/2004 10:08:10 AM
A bankruptcy filing by Delta Air Lines Inc. would likely cost the companies that own many of Delta's planes tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars.
Bankrupt carriers United Air Lines Inc. and US Airways Group Inc. each have gotten at least $900 million in concessions on their airplane leases.
More than 50 prominent American companies own airplanes that they lease to Delta at interest rates ranging from 9 percent to 12 percent or more. The companies include Altria Group Inc. subsidiary Philip Morris Capital Corp., .The Walt Disney Co., Verizon Corp. subsidiary Bell Atlantic Credit Corp., and subsidiaries of AT&T Corp. and Bank of America N.A.
If the carrier (NYSE: DAL) ends up in bankruptcy - which CEO Jerry Grinstein has repeatedly warned is possible - these and other companies will have to renegotiate the terms and interest rates of their Delta plane leases under bankruptcy court supervision.
Right now, Delta has 838 planes across its operations, with 348 of them owned and leased through an outside company and 490 of them owned by Delta, according to statistics provided by Delta. Those figures include planes used by Delta's low-fare service Song and its subsidiaries Comair Inc. and Atlantic Southeast Airlines Inc.
Delta spokesman John Kennedy declined to discuss the carrier's leases.
"A 25 [percent] or 30 percent decline in value is somewhere in the neighborhood of what we'll probably see here," said Bill Rochelle, a partner with New York law firm Fulbright & Jaworski LLP who specializes in airline bankruptcies. "The process is filled with pain and suffering all around. Nobody gets out unscathed."
United (OTC: UALAQ) said in its recent annual report that it expects to save $900 million annually over the next five years from its aircraft restructuring efforts, and US Airways (Nasdaq: UAIR) also said in its annual report that is has saved $967 million from its restructured aircraft financing deals.
American Airlines Inc. (NYSE: AMR), which has narrowly avoided bankruptcy thus far, cut its aircraft rental payments by $150 million in 2003 and is selling off some planes to further reduce its obligations.
Rochelle pointed out many of Delta's plane lessors are probably hesitant to give steep cuts right now because none of them can tell what cuts - if any - the other lessors are giving.
"It's all very cloudy until bankruptcy actually occurs and everybody can see what everybody else is doing," Rochelle said. "That's when the real concessions come."
He added, however, that Delta is probably trying to renegotiate some plane leases now in its ongoing efforts to cut costs and avoid bankruptcy like American did. Delta management also is seeking a $900 million reduction in pilot pay, in addition to across-the-board cuts, to help the airline better compete with low-cost carriers.
Industry watchers and analysts have speculated Delta may file for bankruptcy as soon as October or November. At the end of the first quarter, Delta had a whopping $20.6 billion debt load and cash reserves of $2.7 billion.
The company's second quarter results are scheduled to be released July 19, and Delta's net losses are expected to be high because of two noncash charges totaling $1.65 billion. The charges are related to deferred income taxes and pension contributions, and they will not affect Delta's cash position.
Regardless of whether Delta ends up in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, many of the owners of Delta's planes have probably already set aside enough money to cover any losses they may incur on Delta leases, according to local bankruptcy attorney Dan Kolber, a partner with Atlanta law firm Gambrell & Stolz LLP.
"This isn't the sort of thing that takes an investor by surprise, especially given what United and US Air have been through," said Kolber, who is a former executive with the now-defunct startup carrier called Air Atlanta.
Disney (NYSE: DIS), for example, said in its most recent quarterly filing that it was "monitoring the recoverability" of plane leases it has with Delta and FedEx Corp. (NYSE: FDX), and that it may have to write off as much as $119 million if Delta files for bankruptcy. Disney took a write-down of $114 million in the third quarter of 2003 for its plane leases with United. Disney spokesman John Spelich declined to comment for this story.
AT&T Corp. (NYSE: T), which holds leases on seven Delta planes worth a collective $72 million, has written off .$310 million related to its aircraft leases over the past two years and warned investors in its recent annual filing that it may face additional losses if its aircraft leases are restructured further. AT&T spokesman Dan Lawler declined to comment further.
Verizon (NYSE: VZ) has taken charges totaling $301 million over the past two years, most of which came from its plane leases, according to its annual report. Verizon spokesman Bob Varettoni declined to comment for this story.
John Mulligan, CEO of Altria's (NYSE: MO) Philip Morris Capital Corp. (PMCC), declined to comment on his company's plane leases. However, PMCC told investors in its annual report that it was shifting the focus of its finance lease portfolio to an emphasis on "maximizing gains and generating reliable cash flow" instead of focusing primarily on growth. PMCC is the largest Delta plane owner, with 19 aircraft worth $241 million.
Leases on airplanes and other heavy machinery became a popular investment tool in the bullish 1990s economy among cash-rich companies looking for ways to shelter some of their money.
In a healthy economy, plane leases are attractive because they often yield higher-than-average interest rates (usually .9 percent or more), and the companies that own the planes can claim tax write-offs each year on the depreciating value of the aircraft.
Aircraft are also considered easier investments than other heavy machinery such as railroad cars or construction equipment because they are easy to transport and can sometimes be converted to cargo or military planes if the commercial passenger market is weak.
The leases also allow airlines to pay lower monthly rental fees - $100,000 to $300,000 per month depending on aircraft type and lease terms - instead of buying planes outright for tens of millions of dollars each.
And at the end of the lease term (typically 10 to 20 years), the owner still has some equity in the plane, which can be sold.
"It's a very good way to do some tax-advantaged investing," Rochelle said.
The problem for Delta and its peers, such as United and US Airways, is that many of their plane leases date back .10 years or more, and those deals were done at higher valuations and often with back-end load clauses that make them far more expensive than today's leases.
"The rates on some of these old leases are way above today's market - sometimes by a factor of three," said Clive Medland, senior vice president at air transportation consulting firm Simat, Helliesen & Eichner Inc.
Monthly lease payments for a Boeing 737, for example, might be cut from $200,000 to $90,000 under bankruptcy court oversight, he said.
One thing in favor of plane owners who lease to Delta is the likelihood that the carrier will want to keep all or most of its planes in service even if a bankruptcy filing occurs.
Delta's fleet is still relatively young - the average age is 12 years - and the carrier has made no overtures of changing its aircraft type or scaling back from any of its hubs.
Another bright spot for Delta plane owners is the weakness of the secondary plane market.
There currently are 230 passenger jets owned or leased by American carriers in long-term storage in deserts in the Southwest, according to data compiled by BACK Aviation Solutions, a Connecticut firm that tracks airline fleets. Nineteen of those planes are Delta's.
Worldwide, there are 1,217 cargo and passenger jets in long-term storage out of a total of 18,091 aircraft, or 6.7 percent, BACK Aviation data shows.
That means the owners of Delta planes would probably be more inclined to negotiate their leases with Delta so the carrier keeps using their planes, Rochelle said. The other option is running the risk of not finding a new buyer and having to put the planes in storage where they draw little or no revenue.
"If [owners] take their plane back, they will have the great pleasure of parking it in an Arizona desert and paying for storage and maintenance," Rochelle said. "The only other thing you can do with these planes is use them as a giant, expensive paperweight."
Delta's Pains Extend to Planes
Provided By: The Atlanta Business Chronicle
Last Modified: 7/19/2004 10:08:10 AM
A bankruptcy filing by Delta Air Lines Inc. would likely cost the companies that own many of Delta's planes tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars.
Bankrupt carriers United Air Lines Inc. and US Airways Group Inc. each have gotten at least $900 million in concessions on their airplane leases.
More than 50 prominent American companies own airplanes that they lease to Delta at interest rates ranging from 9 percent to 12 percent or more. The companies include Altria Group Inc. subsidiary Philip Morris Capital Corp., .The Walt Disney Co., Verizon Corp. subsidiary Bell Atlantic Credit Corp., and subsidiaries of AT&T Corp. and Bank of America N.A.
If the carrier (NYSE: DAL) ends up in bankruptcy - which CEO Jerry Grinstein has repeatedly warned is possible - these and other companies will have to renegotiate the terms and interest rates of their Delta plane leases under bankruptcy court supervision.
Right now, Delta has 838 planes across its operations, with 348 of them owned and leased through an outside company and 490 of them owned by Delta, according to statistics provided by Delta. Those figures include planes used by Delta's low-fare service Song and its subsidiaries Comair Inc. and Atlantic Southeast Airlines Inc.
Delta spokesman John Kennedy declined to discuss the carrier's leases.
"A 25 [percent] or 30 percent decline in value is somewhere in the neighborhood of what we'll probably see here," said Bill Rochelle, a partner with New York law firm Fulbright & Jaworski LLP who specializes in airline bankruptcies. "The process is filled with pain and suffering all around. Nobody gets out unscathed."
United (OTC: UALAQ) said in its recent annual report that it expects to save $900 million annually over the next five years from its aircraft restructuring efforts, and US Airways (Nasdaq: UAIR) also said in its annual report that is has saved $967 million from its restructured aircraft financing deals.
American Airlines Inc. (NYSE: AMR), which has narrowly avoided bankruptcy thus far, cut its aircraft rental payments by $150 million in 2003 and is selling off some planes to further reduce its obligations.
Rochelle pointed out many of Delta's plane lessors are probably hesitant to give steep cuts right now because none of them can tell what cuts - if any - the other lessors are giving.
"It's all very cloudy until bankruptcy actually occurs and everybody can see what everybody else is doing," Rochelle said. "That's when the real concessions come."
He added, however, that Delta is probably trying to renegotiate some plane leases now in its ongoing efforts to cut costs and avoid bankruptcy like American did. Delta management also is seeking a $900 million reduction in pilot pay, in addition to across-the-board cuts, to help the airline better compete with low-cost carriers.
Industry watchers and analysts have speculated Delta may file for bankruptcy as soon as October or November. At the end of the first quarter, Delta had a whopping $20.6 billion debt load and cash reserves of $2.7 billion.
The company's second quarter results are scheduled to be released July 19, and Delta's net losses are expected to be high because of two noncash charges totaling $1.65 billion. The charges are related to deferred income taxes and pension contributions, and they will not affect Delta's cash position.
Regardless of whether Delta ends up in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, many of the owners of Delta's planes have probably already set aside enough money to cover any losses they may incur on Delta leases, according to local bankruptcy attorney Dan Kolber, a partner with Atlanta law firm Gambrell & Stolz LLP.
"This isn't the sort of thing that takes an investor by surprise, especially given what United and US Air have been through," said Kolber, who is a former executive with the now-defunct startup carrier called Air Atlanta.
Disney (NYSE: DIS), for example, said in its most recent quarterly filing that it was "monitoring the recoverability" of plane leases it has with Delta and FedEx Corp. (NYSE: FDX), and that it may have to write off as much as $119 million if Delta files for bankruptcy. Disney took a write-down of $114 million in the third quarter of 2003 for its plane leases with United. Disney spokesman John Spelich declined to comment for this story.
AT&T Corp. (NYSE: T), which holds leases on seven Delta planes worth a collective $72 million, has written off .$310 million related to its aircraft leases over the past two years and warned investors in its recent annual filing that it may face additional losses if its aircraft leases are restructured further. AT&T spokesman Dan Lawler declined to comment further.
Verizon (NYSE: VZ) has taken charges totaling $301 million over the past two years, most of which came from its plane leases, according to its annual report. Verizon spokesman Bob Varettoni declined to comment for this story.
John Mulligan, CEO of Altria's (NYSE: MO) Philip Morris Capital Corp. (PMCC), declined to comment on his company's plane leases. However, PMCC told investors in its annual report that it was shifting the focus of its finance lease portfolio to an emphasis on "maximizing gains and generating reliable cash flow" instead of focusing primarily on growth. PMCC is the largest Delta plane owner, with 19 aircraft worth $241 million.
Leases on airplanes and other heavy machinery became a popular investment tool in the bullish 1990s economy among cash-rich companies looking for ways to shelter some of their money.
In a healthy economy, plane leases are attractive because they often yield higher-than-average interest rates (usually .9 percent or more), and the companies that own the planes can claim tax write-offs each year on the depreciating value of the aircraft.
Aircraft are also considered easier investments than other heavy machinery such as railroad cars or construction equipment because they are easy to transport and can sometimes be converted to cargo or military planes if the commercial passenger market is weak.
The leases also allow airlines to pay lower monthly rental fees - $100,000 to $300,000 per month depending on aircraft type and lease terms - instead of buying planes outright for tens of millions of dollars each.
And at the end of the lease term (typically 10 to 20 years), the owner still has some equity in the plane, which can be sold.
"It's a very good way to do some tax-advantaged investing," Rochelle said.
The problem for Delta and its peers, such as United and US Airways, is that many of their plane leases date back .10 years or more, and those deals were done at higher valuations and often with back-end load clauses that make them far more expensive than today's leases.
"The rates on some of these old leases are way above today's market - sometimes by a factor of three," said Clive Medland, senior vice president at air transportation consulting firm Simat, Helliesen & Eichner Inc.
Monthly lease payments for a Boeing 737, for example, might be cut from $200,000 to $90,000 under bankruptcy court oversight, he said.
One thing in favor of plane owners who lease to Delta is the likelihood that the carrier will want to keep all or most of its planes in service even if a bankruptcy filing occurs.
Delta's fleet is still relatively young - the average age is 12 years - and the carrier has made no overtures of changing its aircraft type or scaling back from any of its hubs.
Another bright spot for Delta plane owners is the weakness of the secondary plane market.
There currently are 230 passenger jets owned or leased by American carriers in long-term storage in deserts in the Southwest, according to data compiled by BACK Aviation Solutions, a Connecticut firm that tracks airline fleets. Nineteen of those planes are Delta's.
Worldwide, there are 1,217 cargo and passenger jets in long-term storage out of a total of 18,091 aircraft, or 6.7 percent, BACK Aviation data shows.
That means the owners of Delta planes would probably be more inclined to negotiate their leases with Delta so the carrier keeps using their planes, Rochelle said. The other option is running the risk of not finding a new buyer and having to put the planes in storage where they draw little or no revenue.
"If [owners] take their plane back, they will have the great pleasure of parking it in an Arizona desert and paying for storage and maintenance," Rochelle said. "The only other thing you can do with these planes is use them as a giant, expensive paperweight."
Jeff Helgeson
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2002
- Posts
- 1,046
Share the pain vs. tough talk
As far as Delta goes, would it be fair for the pilots to take all the pay cuts and leave all other parts of the airline at the same rates? If ASA and Comair are wholey owned by DAL, you might be expected to take a hit. Would that be fair.....although with this industry, fair is irrevelant.
Could DAL just get MESA or some other contract carrier to feed Delta or are you completely protected by your contract? Again, nobody is completely protected in this industry, it's just words on paper that can be illiminated through various means.
For the other pilot that said there are lots of guys out there probably "wet dreaming" about flying your RJ......it not wet dreaming, it's just some sick form of "self abuse" at best.
Good luck to us all.
That's a hard line, but I think the General has a point.asacap said:
As far as Delta goes, would it be fair for the pilots to take all the pay cuts and leave all other parts of the airline at the same rates? If ASA and Comair are wholey owned by DAL, you might be expected to take a hit. Would that be fair.....although with this industry, fair is irrevelant.
Could DAL just get MESA or some other contract carrier to feed Delta or are you completely protected by your contract? Again, nobody is completely protected in this industry, it's just words on paper that can be illiminated through various means.
For the other pilot that said there are lots of guys out there probably "wet dreaming" about flying your RJ......it not wet dreaming, it's just some sick form of "self abuse" at best.
Good luck to us all.
Fair is subjective, I guess. Asking a guy making $150,000 a year to take a 30% paycut may be as fair to some people as asking a guy making $25,000 a year to take the same paycut. Why, moving into a $200,000 house from a $400,000 house is no different than asking a guy to move from his one bedroom apartment into his parent's house! After all, they guys flying the RJs aren't real pilots. True, the Delta guys would still be the highest paid in the industry after the 30% cut, but then again, the ASA and Comair guys would be the highest paid in the fast food industry. Or would they? Regardless of how much profit each company makes, isn't there some minimum standard of living that we should expect? No, I suppose that would not be fair.Jeff Helgeson said:
It's real easy. You, ASA & Comair guys/gals, just say no. Delta is renegotiating the contract with mainline. You have a contract with your respective companies. If your MEC chooses to renegotiate and 50% + one pilot votes yes then the majority has spoken and that is what is going to happen. Converesly if 50% + one pilot votes no then current contract stays in place. As for ASA and their current negotiations, I wish you good luck. I say that because A. I don't think the current administration during an election year is going to allow any airline, regional or major, to go on strike and b. Delta management learned a lesson from the Comair strike and I don't think a shutdown if allowed would harm the company as much as it did before.
As for the original article that started this thread, I think the newspapers can always find people in this industry that voice an opinion that is in the minority. I know that DALPA wants a viable plan by management as to how the concessions are going to be used. I think pretty much anyone would believe that to be a smart idea. I know of very few people that would say "OK here is our money and don't change a thing because you're doing so well right now"
As for the original article that started this thread, I think the newspapers can always find people in this industry that voice an opinion that is in the minority. I know that DALPA wants a viable plan by management as to how the concessions are going to be used. I think pretty much anyone would believe that to be a smart idea. I know of very few people that would say "OK here is our money and don't change a thing because you're doing so well right now"
Publishers
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,736
leases
Your points are valid however it is difficult to tell exactly who the players are from the article and the fact that Comair and the other regionals are mixed into the equation.
If they are typical, you have owned aircraft, owned through financed leases, equipment trust aircraft, tax incentive foreign based leasing, and more normal operating leases.
To a number of these, the relativity to the market value today is irrevelant. It is just like you went to your bank and arranged a loan for a new car. What you can go into Enterprise and rent them for is irrevelant to your situation. Likewise you are part of some offshore tax financing, returning the aircraft is not really an option. For all intent and purpose, you own it.
Ultimately all of these forced adjustments reduce the money available in the future. I remember Continental BK more than any as they were merciless on the lessors. There was not a rush to get back into Continental later.
My point, agreeably somewhat missed, was that the pilot group should not be demanding that the banks and lessors share any pain with them, for the most part they are all taking it on the chin industry wide for the current state of the business.
Your points are valid however it is difficult to tell exactly who the players are from the article and the fact that Comair and the other regionals are mixed into the equation.
If they are typical, you have owned aircraft, owned through financed leases, equipment trust aircraft, tax incentive foreign based leasing, and more normal operating leases.
To a number of these, the relativity to the market value today is irrevelant. It is just like you went to your bank and arranged a loan for a new car. What you can go into Enterprise and rent them for is irrevelant to your situation. Likewise you are part of some offshore tax financing, returning the aircraft is not really an option. For all intent and purpose, you own it.
Ultimately all of these forced adjustments reduce the money available in the future. I remember Continental BK more than any as they were merciless on the lessors. There was not a rush to get back into Continental later.
My point, agreeably somewhat missed, was that the pilot group should not be demanding that the banks and lessors share any pain with them, for the most part they are all taking it on the chin industry wide for the current state of the business.
Strike? I say go for it. First of all, doubtful if the government will allow it. Second of all, with 1000 Delta pilots on the street, I would bet Delta would shut you down in a minute, transfer the airplanes to a new subsidiary to be staffed by furloughed Delta pilots. The Delta pilots have very little leverage to negotiate right now. The ASA pilots do not have a whole lot more.BlackCoffee said:
CF34-3B1
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Posts
- 831
Isn't there a 4 letter word for pilots who do that?xray678 said:
Besides, it's not something they could do very quickly, it would take months, at least.
Even bringing in the semi scab level regionals wouldn't solve the problem, there just isn't that much extra lift available quick enough.
89 days of CMR shutting down CVG cost how many millions? What do you think ASA shutting down ATL feed would cost over say, 6 months?
The CMR strike was during "good" times. An extended ASA strike would probably be enough to push DAL into CH11. Which is probably why GG would welcome one.
Man, I'm gone for a couple days and this stupid article comes out. First of all, the opinions in that article are merely opinions of 2-3 pilots. Its a real stretch to say they accurately represent 8500. Nobody is asking subsidiaries for paycuts ...the general feeling is that, fair to us or not, the cuts are going to come from the mainline pilots & some creditors only. (popularized by the phrase: stakeholders) Whether Delta or DCI start asking for cuts at the subsidiaries later will have NOTHING to do with this agreement. Its fairly evident that GG sees this as a mainline problem at this time. This article was written to stir emotion in CVG and sell papers.
Its unfortunate, however, that the pilots quoted made reference to a dollar figure since that always results in eye rolling, jealousy, division, and playing of the world's smallest violins. It doesn't, however, make their sacrifices any easier than someone making less money taking pacuts. All of us generally live fairly close to our means no matter how much or little we make. To throw rocks at someone because they make X dollars is pretty childish. For all we know, those pilots said they were lucky to still have jobs, love flying for Delta and happy to still have six figure incomes after the cuts but that type of talk doesn't sell papers.
For the record, $400,000 won't buy you much here in NJ. A 15-year old townhouse goes for $300,000.
Its unfortunate, however, that the pilots quoted made reference to a dollar figure since that always results in eye rolling, jealousy, division, and playing of the world's smallest violins. It doesn't, however, make their sacrifices any easier than someone making less money taking pacuts. All of us generally live fairly close to our means no matter how much or little we make. To throw rocks at someone because they make X dollars is pretty childish. For all we know, those pilots said they were lucky to still have jobs, love flying for Delta and happy to still have six figure incomes after the cuts but that type of talk doesn't sell papers.
For the record, $400,000 won't buy you much here in NJ. A 15-year old townhouse goes for $300,000.
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
MedFlyer,
It doesn't make me feel any better but they are certainly smart if they are preparing...its hard to imagine the other mainline employees escaping loss of pay during the restructuring. I just hope this plan works....when I came to work for the company it was kicking *** and making billion dollar profits. Sure would be nice to see that type of success again.
Fingers crossed,
It doesn't make me feel any better but they are certainly smart if they are preparing...its hard to imagine the other mainline employees escaping loss of pay during the restructuring. I just hope this plan works....when I came to work for the company it was kicking *** and making billion dollar profits. Sure would be nice to see that type of success again.
Fingers crossed,
Yeah right, nice spin. Now how about some facts like the PSA MEC, elected by the PSA pilots, voted overwhelmingly for it.~~~^~~~ said:
PSA Pilots Approve 70-Seat Flying Agreement with US
Airways
The PSA MEC on July 22 ratified Letter of Agreement No. 8,
agreeing to terms and conditions for the operation of 70-seat
jets. The MEC voted 8-1 to ratify the proposal, which provides
for the extension of the 50-50 staffing ratio, as outlined in the
Jets for Jobs protocol with US Airways and its pilots.
~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
FDJ
It makes sense that you would like the Jets for Jobs (revision) at US Air's wholly owned owed because it gives mainline pilots preferential bidding over pilots who have flown for there since day one. So in your world of "fair" being on the Delta seniority list for 1 second gives you seniority rights over ASA employees who have been here 25 years. The fact that US Air did it to their wholly owned's did it probably gives you some justification for Delta doing it.
I've recieved e-mails from those involved and ALPA National led the MEC into a "do or die" negotiation - then has tried to spin the result.
No, I am afraid that no amount of wash, spin and repeat is going to cleanse the flat out job theft that ALPA imposed on US Air's wholly owned carriers.
LOA - 8 is a low point in ALPA's history and a sore on this union.
The RJDC is thankful for an illustration of just how nasty ALPA can be when unrestrained by the Court.
~~~^~~~
It makes sense that you would like the Jets for Jobs (revision) at US Air's wholly owned owed because it gives mainline pilots preferential bidding over pilots who have flown for there since day one. So in your world of "fair" being on the Delta seniority list for 1 second gives you seniority rights over ASA employees who have been here 25 years. The fact that US Air did it to their wholly owned's did it probably gives you some justification for Delta doing it.
I've recieved e-mails from those involved and ALPA National led the MEC into a "do or die" negotiation - then has tried to spin the result.
No, I am afraid that no amount of wash, spin and repeat is going to cleanse the flat out job theft that ALPA imposed on US Air's wholly owned carriers.
LOA - 8 is a low point in ALPA's history and a sore on this union.
The RJDC is thankful for an illustration of just how nasty ALPA can be when unrestrained by the Court.
~~~^~~~
Fins, I never characterized it as fair or unfair. I just corrected your misinformation which you and your RJDC buddies seem to spew on a regular basis. Since Dan Ford seems to have no problem misrepresenting the facts it can be a full time job.
Once again you put out the spin that ALPA national imposed this J4J deal on PSA, when in fact the PSA MEC overwhelmingly approved it in an 8-1 vote.
Once again you put out the spin that ALPA national imposed this J4J deal on PSA, when in fact the PSA MEC overwhelmingly approved it in an 8-1 vote.
Share this page
Latest posts
-
Question Any Other NXCub Drivers Out There?- Latest: lrobichaux
-
-
-
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
