Delta Pilots:missery demands company!

[FlyComAirJets]

FDJ2, while arm twisting is a tried and true union tactic, even the most obtuse person can see that it is symptomatic of ALPA consistently favoring one pilot group's interests over another's. In other words, ALPA national's fingerprints are all over this.

Yes, "the PSA MEC overwhelmingly approved it in an 8-1 vote." With a gun aimed at their pointy little heads.

Too bad for you that such strong armed tactics have been failing miserably over here at the Delta community. Your MEC has picked this fight and with absolute target fixation continues to press on.

Big mistake.

 

[FDJ2]

Yes, "the PSA MEC overwhelmingly approved it in an 8-1 vote." With a gun aimed at their pointy little heads.

And the USAIR pilots don't have a gun pointed at their head when they need to negotiate away more of their code flying? There are tough choices to be made by all. Life's tough, get use to it.

 

[xray678]

Isn't there a 4 letter word for pilots who do that?

Yeah.......RJDC

 

[taloft]

"Personally, I have a lot of friends who are Comair pilots, but I will definitely not vote for it and just about everyone else I know won't vote for this deal unless it includes a provision that cuts will be made elsewhere," said another MD-88 first officer, who said his wife is getting a job to help offset the anticipated loss in salary."

Right off http://www.airlinepilotpay.com

Delta (year 2) $114/hr to (year 12) $320/hr
Comair (year 2) $37/hr to (year 12) $94/hr (year 18) $113/hr

Yep, those Comair guys sure are overpaid! It takes them 18 years to make less than a 2nd-year Delta FO!

 

[P38JLightning]

don't underestimate the power of ASA

>>>>>>I don't think the current administration during an election year is going to allow any airline, regional or major, to go on strike.

Interesting theory. I'll give you that Bush doesn't care about worker's (especially airline workers) rights. But he did just recently "allow" Mesaba to go on strike. They didn't of course, because they threw their FO's under the bus trying to get growth but that's besides the point. They were released. As in could have went on strike any time. No PEB, no nothing from Pennsylvania Avenue.

>>>>>Delta management learned a lesson from the Comair strike and I don't think a shutdown if allowed would harm the company as much as it did before.

They only learned part of the lesson. They learned how expensive a strike is. They also think we are terrified of their portfolio and won't have the guts to do it in the future as long as other connection carriers are flying into every hub. Big mistake.

You can align the flying any way you want, but parking 140 planes (slightly more/less) by ASA going on strike would be a Delta killer.

Besides, ASA is still dominant in ATL. Comair just did a partial withdrawl from there recently and were never a threat to begin with because we are the most expensive. Shows how desperate Delta is. They are counting on ASA to run scared and cave. They could be in for a big surprise. The pitiful realignment they've done so far has done more to hamper Comair's strike leverage than ASA's. Brilliant!

Let's review:

Comair shutting off 99% of the feed to basically an MD-80 hub for less than 3 months = almost 3/5 Billion.

What would the cost be for ASA shutting off 80% or more of Atlanta's "feed?" I bet WAY more than Comair's small fry (by comparison) strike. The routes ASA's 140 planes fly now would be frozen (even the backstabber airlines refused to officially become scabs, even "I'll take your growth by any means necessary" SkyWest refused) So all ASA only city pairs would be lost, and any shared city pair would be frozen to current (Non ASA) frequency and gauge. Hmmmm unless Delta has purposely overused its RJ's to the tune of a 140 jet surplus then they will be feeling the pain big time.

Don't forget Kerry (who has a 50% chance of winning) said he would allow strikes (maybe not one or 2 majors at the same time, but little old ASA...come on! hardly worth breaking a major campaign promise over now is it?) and Bush (who has a 50% chance of winning) hasn't given a rat's @ss about the "regionals" even though he spouted his "automatic PEB" propaganda before the Comair AND Mesaba strikes.

And as for Comair/ASA taking cuts to "share the pain" I highly doubt cuts over here will have ANYTHING to do with the cuts over at Delta. Remember, your MEC just agreed to those 0.7 BILLION dollar cuts without Comair/ASA cuts. If you want to call our bluffs and vote it (or the next offer) down go ahead. We have a whole lot less to lose than you do. Most of us could replace all, most or even more of our income quickly. Can you say the same? The money in our retirement accounts stays with us in the event of ch 11 or ch 7. What about yours? I doubt "the judge" will reduce our 90 minute call out. But bye bye "long call reserve". Increase the equipment freeze to 5 years? Who cares, we only have 2 fleet types and the pay is pretty close. How about that "night over-ride" LMAO. Right. 75 hour cap? Um, yeah. You get the point.

Besides, we're seperate, right?

So if you want us to share the pain to help the mother ship, you gotta play ball. Swallow your pride and admit we are part of the team. Give us access to ALL future Delta jobs before anyone on the street. Everyone gets DOH for furlough protection, a reasonable bidding fence and no displacements at any airline. Staple for Comair and ASA. Phase out the cancerous backstabber portfolio low bidders in short order. Hey its all up to negotiation. But we are never going to "share the pain" just so that your pay cuts are more justifiable to you. Come on. I'm as anti RJDC as they come and even I can see that. Hope you can too.

Not working together sure has paid dividends, hasn't it?

 

[surplus1]

And the USAIR pilots don't have a gun pointed at their head when they need to negotiate away more of their code flying? There are tough choices to be made by all. Life's tough, get use to it.

FDJ2,

It is not what you call the "tough choices" that are at issue. As you point out we all have to make thodr from time to time. The USAir pilots may well have a "gun pointed at their head". So did the AA pilots, the UAL pilots and soon to come the DAL and NWA pilots. However there is a difference.

In the case(s) of all those "major" airlines, the "gun" is being held and pointed by management and the threat is bankruptcy or pending bankruptcy and a reduction in pay.

Contrastingly, in the case of the regional airlines, the gun is being held and pointed by the labor union that they pay to represent their interests. The threat is the loss of everything. A very different scenario.

We are all "used to it" when management attempts to coerce employees into giving up their compensation packages, work rules and benefits or when the union tries to coerce management into providing more compensation, better work rules and improved benefits. That's the name of the game.

What we are not "used to" and should never get used to are efforts by the labor union to which we belong to coerce or even to extort from its own membership their seniority and their jobs, and give them to different members of the very same labor union who are "preferred" by the leaders of that labor union. That is what ALPA has done and is doing.

Here for your information and that of others are the definitions of the terms "coerce" and "extort"

"Coerce: 1 : to restrain or dominate by force 2 : to compel to an act or choice
3 : to bring about by force or threat."

"Extort: to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power."

Note please, that the difference is very subtle and in practical application soes not exist . It may be debated that coercion is unethical but technically legal. It may not be debated that extortion is illegal. I'll leave it to the reader to decide whether ALPA is guilty of both.

In all of these "proceedings" and "proposals" the intent of the National Union is clear. It has decided that certain of its members are preferred over the remainder of its members. It is determined and consistently engaged, in a concerted effort to tranfer the work from one group of members to the other.

When management does this, we resist with vigor. When our own union does it, those who are not numbered among the preferred class are expected to both acquiese in silence and applaud overtly the predatory behavior of their union . You support the union's actions because you would be the beneficiary of them. That's as simple as it is. We oppose them because they threaten our very survival.

I have two questions for you: 1) What will your reaction be when one of the regional MECs makes a proposal to the management of your Company that includes an offer to operate some of the aircraft you traditionally fly, for lower compensation, with fewer work rules and lesser benefits? 2) What will ALPA do when such a proposal is made? Will it vigorously support and assit the efforts of the regional MEC to make it come to pass or will it oppose it with all its strength and call its makers robbers?

If ALPA continues on its present course, what I infer will eventually happen. It is not a question of IF, it is only a question of when. When it does, no amount of coercion or extortion will prevent the chaos that ensues. The lid will be off Pandora's Box and management's dream will have come true. The union will implode.

I don't want this, but I see it coming. I speak of it in the hope that the people that run our union will take off the blinders and return to the proper exercise of their responsibilities before it is too late. If we do not stop this while we can we will all destroy each other in the coming civil war. What you see now is but a border skirmish compared to what will come.

One thing is certain however, people like me will never surrender to people like you. The struggle will go on until one of us emerges victorious. You and yours and ALPA all have to decide just how much the odds are really in your favor. While you're doing that remember. "the bigger they are, the harder they fall." Remember too, that once Humpty Dumpty falls, there will be no putting it together again.

The noise that you and ALPA are hearing is not the Master Caution, it is the Master Warning! It cannot be silenced until the problem is corrected.

 

[michael707767]

That sounds fair to me.

 

[surplus1]

Hey P38,

What would happen if the ASA pilots strike and the Comair pilots were to join them in a sympathy strike?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus and P38 :

Don't forget how ASA got our current contract. All the pilots had to do is "fly the book" and let management do the rest.

It is not our job to fuel the airplane, get it cleaned, or serviced. The emergency lights ( all of them ) must work, even if you are at an outstation. The book says we can not re-set systems, pull breakers, isolate busses and all of the other "techniques" used to help get all the relays and computers singing to the same director. In fact, I am deleting my phone numbers for Maintenance Control as I write this. No waivers, no favors. Give back just as we have recieved from the Company that reminds us - we are not part of the team.

If the Delta pilots want a war by proxy, this could be it. I would personally love to recieve strike benefits, then unemployment benefits, while working my second job full time. Further, AirTran would grow like a weed and I'm thinking most ASA pilots have a better shot at a future with AirTran than we do working here on the plantation to support the above market wages of our Delta masters.

ALPA Apartied, Divide and Conquer, I'm telling you, we will fight and if it is MAD, so be it. As others have pointed out, the Delta boys have more to lose than we do.

The only folks I regret this happening to is our passengers, who deserve better. However, if management signs off on the type of deal proposed by ALPA the die is cast.

~~~^~~~

 

[DDpaysoff]

This is just typical press garbage. Don't get worked up about it. One thing I fear in life more than any other, is a person who has nothing to lose. ASA and CMR have much less to lose than DAL, CMR showed this in '01 and ASA sounds like they are ready to as well. I wonder how a strike would affect GG's restructuring plan? This job is not worth doing for less. If you want us to give, you better have something on the table. We have a PWA, and we are as attiment about protecting it as the ones that went on strike to get it. If you want to talk to us we will send our people to the table.

 

[DDpaysoff]

In good faith.

 

[P38JLightning]

interesting question

Surplus,

As far as Comair joining in with a sympathy strike, I like the idea. I'm not sure we could, however, without being in violation of federal law.

If there were a way we could do it legally, I would be all for it.

But even without a sympathy strike, I would vote for any assessment for the ASA pilots, donate generously to their family fund, carefuly monitor our flights to make sure none were struck (sp) work, walk the concourse looking for their jumpseaters, etc.

In fact, I pledge to contribite double whatever ALPA's ASA strike assessment is and challenge all Comair pilots to do the same.

So to answer your question, I'm not sure if we can legally strike with them (and in fact I'm pretty sure we can't) but I will sacrifice for them substantialy if it happens. If we can find a way to strike, I abosolutely agree with doing so. We are going to sacrifice everything at some point anyway with this pathetic whipsaw embracing status quo we're quagmired in. Might as well get it over with sooner than later!

 

[DDpaysoff]

I plan on being very active in support for ASA. From picketing to contributing to strike funds or whatever else our brothers and sisters ask of us. DAL has created the ultimate opposite of whipsaw between us.

 

[gordon24]

"Personally, I have a lot of friends who are Comair pilots, but I will definitely not vote for it and just about everyone else I know won't vote for this deal unless it includes a provision that cuts will be made elsewhere," said another MD-88 first officer, who said his wife is getting a job to help offset the anticipated loss in salary."

Join the club, morons! My wife has to work just so we can get by. Sorry that some Delta wives will have to get a job. Cry me a f'n river...!

 

[CF34-3B1]

One thing I fear in life more than any other, is a person who has nothing to lose. ASA and CMR have much less to lose than DAL, CMR showed this in '01 and ASA sounds like they are ready to as well. I wonder how a strike would affect GG's restructuring plan? This job is not worth doing for less.

The longer this goes on, the more I think GG is counting on a strike at ASA. It would be just the straw he needs to go CH11.

The sad part is, the ASA guys are growing increasingly frustrated, and angry. As a mid seniority Captain, I know I can easily replace my income if it came to that. My FO would make more selling cars than he does flying for ASA.

GG is just making sure he has the ASA strike card up his sleeve if he needs it.

 

[letthebigdogeat]

Oh and he'll get it if it should come down to it. Bring it on I say...

 

[FlyComAirJets]

And the USAIR pilots don't have a gun pointed at their head when they need to negotiate away more of their code flying? There are tough choices to be made by all. Life's tough, get use to it.

Get use to it, ex-squeeze me? I've been use to the poor decisions made by ALPA and their designated golden children for years and by gosh, they never cease to march in lock step in lemming-like fashion.

What you can't seem to distinguish is the difference between a tough choice and a poor choice and that is why the same poor choice at USAirways will be repeated at NWA and DAL. Nothing has been learned, just keep drillin' ahead. The sheer arrogance of thinking that you can just throw up a 'take it or leave it' offer is astounding...and tragic.

 

[gordon24]

The sheer arrogance of thinking that you can just throw up a 'take it or leave it' offer is astounding...and tragic.

Very well put. The key word in that is "arrogance".

 

[FDJ2]

Get use to it, ex-squeeze me?

No your not excused. Your tunnel vision, resentments and perceived wrongs drip from your posts. Yes the PSA MEC had a choice, as did the others. The situation at USAIR is dire and their MEC made a large concession giving up some additional scope, PSA wanted the growth aircraft and they had to make a choice aswell.

It's a tough business and tough choices have to be made and lived by. Get over it and get use to it.

 

[huncowboy]

Looking at that article (the original in the thread) the only thing I was wondering about was: How much did management pay to the writer?

Making a couple of blood boiling references, some fictious stupid quotes, then finally after all set, asking Comair, ASA for cuts... well designed _crap to fuel more fire between Delta and the connection pilots. Seem to me it worked just fine.

But I guess I have no clue anyways...