Delta Pilots:missery demands company!

[FDJ2]

Here for your information and that of others are the definitions of the terms "coerce" and "extort"

"Coerce: 1 : to restrain or dominate by force 2 : to compel to an act or choice
3 : to bring about by force or threat."

"Extort: to obtain from a person by force, intimidation, or undue or illegal power."

Thanks for the definition, but they apparently don't apply.

Press ReleaseSource: Air Line Pilots Association


PSA ALPA Pilots Reach Agreement on 70-Seat Jets
Monday July 26, 8:33 am ET

DAYTON, Ohio, July 26 /PRNewswire/ -- The PSA Airlines pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), International, late last week approved a letter of agreement (LOA) with their management, spelling out the terms and conditions for operating 70-seat jets. By a vote of 8-1, the pilot leadership ratified the proposal.

"We are extremely pleased to reach a settlement with our management for this aircraft," said Capt. William Barnett, secretary-treasurer of the PSA pilots' unit of ALPA. "We want to see PSA prosper and grow. The operation of these larger jets will help us to provide better service and coverage for our portion of the US Airways network."

The LOA provides for the extension of the 50-50 staffing ratio, as outlined in the Jets for Jobs protocol with US Airways and its pilots. Under this arrangement, furloughed US Airways pilots are entitled to fill half of the positions assigned to this aircraft, per the limitations of this agreement. The PSA pilots will staff the remaining half of these positions. The LOA also provides positive reserve rule changes and other quality-of-life improvements for PSA pilots.


Perhaps you could look up the meaning of the term extremely pleased.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

As far as Comair joining in with a sympathy strike, I like the idea. I'm not sure we could, however, without being in violation of federal law.

If there were a way we could do it legally, I would be all for it.

So to answer your question, I'm not sure if we can legally strike with them (and in fact I'm pretty sure we can't) but I will sacrifice for them substantialy if it happens. If we can find a way to strike, I abosolutely agree with doing so. We are going to sacrifice everything at some point anyway with this pathetic whipsaw embracing status quo we're quagmired in. Might as well get it over with sooner than later!

Don't be so sure. Sympathy strikes are not per se against the law. Do you remember the strike of the rEAL pilots? That was a sympathy strike. A strike by the pilots (ALPA) in sympathy with a strike by the mechanics (IAM). A different class and craft and different unions; the same company. It was legal.

Make no mistake, I am not encouraging a strike by the ASA pilots. A strike is a war and it should only be undertaken when there is absolutely no alternative. Never by choice, never in anger. The Comair pilots did not strike because they wanted to strike. That strike was caused by the Company. The Company made a conscious decision to force the strike. They had no idea that it would last for 89 days. They made a bad decision.

That having been said, should the ASA pilots decide to withdraw their services legally, and should Comair pilots decide to join in sympathy with them, there will be three (3) challenges to that effort. The first may be a "no strike" side letter in the Comair contract. The second will most probably come from the Air Line Pilots Association; the third will come from Delta Air Lines.

ALPA is certain to oppose it and will do everything in its power to prevent it, including efforts to point out that it is "not legal". Why? Because a victory by ASA pilots would in fact be contrary to the interests of Delta pilots. Such was the case in the Comair strike.

I do not know if the ASA pilots were prepared to strike in sympathy with the Comair pilots. The truth is I am fairly certain they were not prepared to do so and not willing to do so. Just the same, I'll bet you a dollar to a donut that their MEC was "advised" by ALPA that it would "not be legal".

The Delta pilots could also have withdrawn their services in sympathy with the Comair pilots. They chose not to do so, not because it was "illegal" but because they were certain that it would have resulted in a PEB and they didn't want the hassle. They had already obtained what they wanted for themselves, had nothing at stake in our cause, and did not want to risk the difficulties or pay any price on our behalf. Had they done it or even seriously threatened to do it, the outcome would have been different.

The Company would challenge a sympathy strike and argue that it was not legal. They would say that we are "separate" companies, we of Comair are not ASA and therefore we cannot strike. Who would be making that arguement? Delta Air Lines, and therein lies the key to the issue.

There is no question that we are the same class and craft, i.e., pilots. The only question is the separate nature of the companies. Are ASA, Comair and Delta really "separate" companies? In fact, ASA, Comair and Delta, each and all, meet all of the requirements of the NMB to be declared a "single carrier" for the purpose of collective bargaining. While there is no need to petition the Board for such a declaration due to the fact that we are already represented by a single collective bargaining agent (ALPA), the criteria to meet that standard (single carrier) clearly are present. If we are a "single carrier" for the purpose of collective bargaining, then we are also a single carrier for the purpose of self help.

The legal argument is simple. A single union, representing a single class and craft, all subject to the control and management of a single corporate parent (Delta Air Lines) can strike in sympathy with each other, even though the parent company has chosen for convenience to create shell corporations.

Delta would undoubtedly seek injunctive relief immediately. ALPA would have to argue against Delta and for the sympathy strike, in court. If they did, I believe they could eventually prevail. However, I do not expect that ALPA would do so. They would do to the ASA pilots exactly what they did to Comair, hang them out to dry. On the other hand, if the Delta pilots were going to strike and the ASA and Comair pilots were willing to strike in sympathy, I'd bet you a dollar to a donut, that ALPA would have no problem going to court in defense of it.

Of course they might lose and Delta might find a sympathetic judge to rule in its favor. That is always possible and it is no secret that Federal judges in Atlanta or for that matter Cincinnati, are not noted for supporting labor unions in their rulings. If an injunction is granted it would stop the strike until the case could be argued fully, but it would certainly let Delta know that the union fully supported its members.

Is it legal? I think it is. Is it practical? Probably not. Why? Because our labor union will not support it.

 

[N813CA]

Sounds to me like we (Comair) is going to have have to step it up a notch again. When we are making 40+ million a quarter, I don't care what we don't pay for, we are making Delta money. Wish I had a $200,000 home let alone a $400,000 home.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks for the definition, but they apparently don't apply.

Press ReleaseSource: Air Line Pilots Association

Perhaps you could look up the meaning of the term extremely pleased.

If you really think that a press release from ALPA could affect my thought process with respect to what is truly behind any MEC decision. or the meaning of "extremely pleased" rhetoric from a regional MEC Chairman, you really don't grasp what we're talking about.

I'll bet you watch FOX News and you're convinced its the "no spin" zone.

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

The last time I checked the Delta pilots and the rest of us in ALPA paid your salaries while you walked the line. Delta pilots made sure there was no struck work flying. Sorry you didn't feel "supported".

 

[350DRIVER]

DAL

Give em he!!, it took too many years for those guys to set the bar this high to just cave in (which they won't). What was once Delta's flying must come back to Delta if they are to once again become successful. ASA/Comair are "regionals" and they are to "feed" Delta's flying, pretty simple folks. I absolutely love some of these posts, they are about as far out in right field as they come.

3 5 0

 

[wms]

Ease up, I think GLs post was a little sarcastic. His point is if what the company is saying is true, that ASA CMR and Song are making money, why should anyone flying Song have to take a pay cut, at least on the Song legs. I also hear the Shuttle is making money, as is international, so why should they take pay cuts? And before you get all pissy about what I just wrote, relax, I am being sarcastic.

No one in the Delta MEC is asking you guys to take pay cuts. Just the opposite in fact. Our current MEC is smart enough to know that the more you cost, the less pressure there is to shift flying to the regionals. Our MEC is asking that everyone at Delta share the pain, from management to the banks to the aircraft lessors. Pilot pay cuts alone will not be enough, though they are a large piece of the puzzle.

Well put, The more it costs (while still being affordable) to move flying to ASA/CA, the more attractive it is to keep the flying at ML. If the ML pilots support ASA's fight for better pay it will help them get more of the flying as flying returns, rather than seeing it go to DCI because it's so much cheaper. As far as DAL transferring flying to contract carriers, why would they hamm-string their own profit center? The old mgmt team did it just to stir things up, and they had an inflated view of the RJs. It seems the new mgmt is more realistic about capitalizing on the profit centers rather than knocking them down.

Another divsion that has been through the same thing is the TOC. It is a huge profit center and DAL has increased it's profit by doing contract work for other carriers rather than using contractors.

Imagine, making money by getting paid to do something rather than paying someone else to do it.

 

[FDJ2]

If you really think that a press release from ALPA could affect my thought process with respect to what is truly behind any MEC decision. or the meaning of "extremely pleased" rhetoric from a regional MEC Chairman, you really don't grasp what we're talking about.

Yeah right Surplus, I guess we should take your word, a CMR pilots, over that of an elected PSA pilots' in matters concerning PSA. What's the matter Surplus, are the PSA pilots not walking in lock step with your RJDC agenda.

Just keep spinning Surplus, that seems to be what Dan Ford and his cronies at RJDC world headquarters do best. Don't let a little hypertechnicality like truthfulness get in the way.

 

[FDJ2]

Surplus,

The last time I checked the Delta pilots and the rest of us in ALPA paid your salaries while you walked the line. Delta pilots made sure there was no struck work flying. Sorry you didn't feel "supported".

Don't forget that the CMR pilots also refused to sign a mutual support agreement with the Delta pilots. Despite that, the Delta pilots, along with all other ALPA pilots, stepped up to the plate when the CMR pilots needed help.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Don't forget that the CMR pilots also refused to sign a mutual support agreement with the Delta pilots. Despite that, the Delta pilots, along with all other ALPA pilots, stepped up to the plate when the CMR pilots needed help.

Bob Arnold was the first person at that meeting to refuse to sign the "agreement." Then J.C. Lawson commented that if Bob Arnold was not going to sign the agreement - he could not sign the agreement either.


~~~^~~~

 

[FDJ2]

Not true. Bob Arnold was the first person at that meeting to refuse to sign the "agreement." Then J.C. Lawson commented that if Bob Arnold was not going to sign the agreement - he could not sign the agreement either. Bill Buergey in typical Buergey fashion then pounded the table and stormed out of the room slamming the door behind him after berating the Connection MEC Chairmen for "sending the wrong message."

FDJ2 - you might be careful posting allegations on this board when some of us have first hand knowledge of some of this history.

~~~^~~~

Fins, I made no statement regarding Arnold, the fact remains that Lawson and the CMR pilots refused to join with the DAL pilots in signing a mutual support agreement. Nothing you have stated contradicts that fact, it only reinforces it. But I find it interesting, that since you CLAIM to have first hand knowledge of the event, that you ought to know that Will Buergey was not the DAL MEC Chairman during our C2K contract negotiations when we sought to join with ASA and CMR in a mutual support agreement, but rather Chuck Giambusso was our Chairman at the time. So much for your credibility and your first hand knowledge. Nice try though. Now go back to your room, get together with your RJDC buddies, and try to spin another tale.

 

[Vortilon]

The silence is deafening.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Chuck Giambusso was our Chairman at the time.

Like the boy in orthopaedic shoes said - " I stand corrected "

At least I admit it. It was Giambusso who stormed out of the room and acted like a two year old.

 

[FDJ2]

Like the boy in orthopaedic shoes said - " I stand corrected "

Well, that's mighty big of you to admit. Of course I would characterize Chuck Giambusso's actions as righteous indignation. The facts are what they are, that despite the fact that the CMR pilots refused to sign a mutual support agreement, the Delta pilots, along with other ALPA pilots, extended that support to the CMR pilots during their time of neeed. That support not only came in the form of early strike benefits, which are not afforded to mainline pilots, but also use of Delta pilot strike facilities, hundreds of Delta pilot volunteers monitoring struck work compliance, financial support for the CMR pilot family fund and walking the picket line side by side. One can only guess at what the support would have been from the CMR pilots. Perhaps their refusal to support the Delta pilots would have led to a stampede as they stepped all over themselves trying to get in a mainline jet.

 

[InclusiveScope]

FDJ2,

One of the big issues on the table during C2K was scope. The ASA and CMR MEC Chairmen asked the DAL MEC what they were going after in terms of scope. The DAL MEC said they would inform the ASA and CMR MECs in time for "damage control". Do you really expect a mutual aid pact when one of your strike issues might have been restrictions on us? What are you smoking? I'm sorry, but I will not support you restricting my career!

 

[Vortilon]

Inclusive,

Nobody is restricting your career...if you want to fly planes bigger than 70 seats you can apply to many other carriers.

(I know that was low, but c'mon, you were wide open)

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

The last time I checked the Delta pilots and the rest of us in ALPA paid your salaries while you walked the line. Delta pilots made sure there was no struck work flying. Sorry you didn't feel "supported".

Would you like me to say we couldn't have done it without the Delta pilots? This is a dead horse, so quit beating it. Every time you guys aren't doing well in an arguement you bring this up.

First, neither the Delta pilots nor ALPA or anybody else paid our salaries. We were paid strike benefits in accordance with ALPA policy. We were and are grateful for those benefits, but don't try to make out that we got special treatment. Anyone on strike would have received the same.

As for Delta pilots making sure there was no struck work flying. I agree that Delta pilots did not fly struck work. I agree that you paid attention to not doing that. It was not because you were doing us a big favor, you were just making sure that you wouldn't be called scabs. In case you didn't notice, nobody else flew struck work either.

Now I realize that you all have no experience with job actions, but you're still smart enough to know that the things that happened, happen in every strike. Everyone is eligible for strike benefits and gets them if the strike lasts long enough. No one flys struck work, that's normal practice. Quit blowing your own horn. It's tacky.

 

[On Your Six]

Tacky is Comair not supporting Delta mainline furloughees unlike sister company ASA. Can someone explain why one company would treat the furloughees one way and the other another way despite both being owned by the same parent? If you can't trust your "family" then....

 

[surplus1]

Don't forget that the CMR pilots also refused to sign a mutual support agreement with the Delta pilots. Despite that, the Delta pilots, along with all other ALPA pilots, stepped up to the plate when the CMR pilots needed help.

You have a nack for producing proposed "mutual agreements" for your own support. When ever YOU want something you call it "mutual". You are correct though it was refused. Let them tell you why it was refused some time.

Incidentally, your MEC refused to sign a mutual support agreement with CMR on two previous occassions, and I won't get your Chairmen mixed up, they were Shelton and Brown. It didn't bother you any when you said no. Why does it bother you if we said no?

The Delta pilots didn't do any more than anyone else during our strike. Yes, a handful of you walked the line with us .... right up to the day you got your own contract, after which we never saw another one of you. Yes, some of you gave money to the family fund; thank you. American pilots, who aren't even ALPA, gave way, way more than you did. It wasn't even close. In fact they gave more than anyone else and they don't keep reminding us either. In other words, you didn't do anything special so stop crowing. Like I told your buddy Vort, quit blowing your own horn. It's tacky.

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

If you want to talk about what's tacky, I'd say its making sweeping generalizations about 8500 pilots: "I know you have no experience with job actions". Not everyone at Delta came straight from the military. We have many pilots that worked at other carriers and have been involved in job actions. You are not the only airline that has been on strike, you know.

How many Delta pilots do you actually KNOW? How many are close friends? All you ever do is make generalizations about our group. And posting with 4-5 of us on the internet doesn't consititute knowing anyone.

I could certainly make sweeping remarks about your pilot group but I don't. It would be tacky.

To be perfectly honest, what I find the most tacky is the entilement attitude I keep seeing on this board. Comair would not be what it is without its relationship with Delta and the employees of CMR have done nothing but benefit from that relationship. You've had substantial route growth, new jet aircraft and better pay & working conditions than you'd have without it. Now I don't think CMR employees should bow down & kiss the feet of Delta per se, but I'm sick of Delta being portrayed in some sort of evil entity.