Delta Pilots:missery demands company!

[surplus1]

Vortilon,
Just some thoughts.

Yours is a voice of reason.

 

[standaman]

As a frequent reader of this section I must say this is one of the best posts I have seen. While I do not normally contribute much to this section (waiting for class date at Comair) because I don't completely understand nor am I really apart of the internal politics here. Creating an us versus them mentally is not going to help anybody especially myself and the pilots who will join the connection carriers in the future.

 

[surplus1]

Really Surplus, another nice spin with nothing to back it up. Can you provide the figures for who gave how much or are you pulling this out of your arse again?

As a matter of fact the figures are available, I won't post them

How did the CMR pilot family fund determine which pilot group a donation came in from?

That's easy. The APA took up a collection themselves and gave a single check on behalf of their group. It was nearly as much as the combined total from all other contributors.

Did the APA contribute more than ALPA to your strike fund or strike benefits, which were voted on, approved and funded by ALPA pilots.

The APA did not contribute anything to our strike benefits. ALPA pilots contributed what they were required to contribute based on ALPA policy.

You started this so I'll tell you what I think. The point is not how much was given or who gave it. The point is that among all those who gave and to whom we are forever grateful, the ONLY group that EVER reminds us that they gave, is the Delta pilots. You are truly unique and frankly, your behavior is shameful.

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

When I speak of the relationship between CMR & DAL I am speaking of the fact that CMR generally feeds Delta in CVG. THAT is the relationship that has allowed your company to thrive. I am not speaking of the ownership or non-ownership of the company.

You actually think Comair's growth is independent of Delta and had nothing to do with codesharing with Delta all these years? You could have made it on your own without that? You could have had the money to buy hundreds of RJs and build a large terminal on your own WITHOUT the money created by the relationship without Delta?

Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to be what you are stating.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,

When I speak of the relationship between CMR & DAL I am speaking of the fact that CMR generally feeds Delta in CVG. THAT is the relationship that has allowed your company to thrive. I am not speaking of the ownership or non-ownership of the company.

You actually think Comair's growth is independent of Delta and had nothing to do with codesharing with Delta all these years? You could have made it on your own without that? You could have had the money to buy hundreds of RJs and build a large terminal on your own WITHOUT the money created by the relationship without Delta?

There is no question whatever that the business relationship that existed between Delta and Comair (prior to the purchase) was advantageous, to both companies. Roughly sixty pecent of Comair's traffic never rode on Delta, the other 40% did. That is still close to the ratio. So who feeds whom is debatable.

We both know that Delta is a huge company and by comparision Comair has always been a small company. Obviously we benefited more from the business relationship than Delta did. I have never denied that.

Now, if we had not done business with Delta, we would have done business with someone else. Whether or not that would have been equally beneficial I truly don't know. We could also have ventured off on our own, bought ValueJet and become a much bigger competitor of yours than AirTran is today. That I happen to think, would have been more beneficial to us that being purchased by Delta. We had the money and the know-how, instead the guru's reduced their risk, took the money from Delta and rode off into the sunset. Your executives do the same thing.

What's important about all this? You guys, the Delta pilots, seem to think that our Company's business relationship with your company, is a reason for us to be beholding to you. It is not. We had no business with you, nor you with us. The corporations had business with each other. You all, as a pilot group, had nothing to do with the business relationship and we, as a pilot group, owe you nothing because of it. That's what I'm saying.

I hope that's not as cryptic.

 

[Vortilon]

Surplus,

Now I understand where you are coming from on that subject. Thanks for the clear explanation.

Respectfully,

 

[FDJ2]

So you won't post the figures Surplus. How about a source? Did the APA contribute more than your fellow ALPA pilots when they authorized your strike benefits and paid you generous strike benefits as well as contributing to the family fund. Perhaps we should just take your word for it?

ALPA pilots paid you early strike benefits, which are not available to mainline pilots by the way, not because they had to, but because they elected to. The generous strike benefits afforded to the CMR pilots was not an automatic entitlement, it was authorized through the vote of other ALPA pilots. What is shameful is you false sense of entitlement and your lack of appreciation for the contributions made by your fellow ALPA pilots.

 

[General Lee]

FDJ2,


I have incurred the same attitude from some of these people for as long as I have been on this board. We (ALPA) helped them in their time of need, and when our people needed help (our furloughs after 9-11)--all they got was "sure, we'll help, as long as you give us....."


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

FDJ2 & General,

We are extremely grateful to our "fellow ALPA pilots" for the assistance they gave us. What we do not like is your opinion(s) that fellow ALPA pilots is spelled D-E-L-T-A. It is not.

We also can't help but notice the you, the Delta pilots, are the ONLY pilots in the ALPA than constantly remind us of what you "gave". If you had given willingly, like the other did, you would have no need for the constant reminders. Again, YOU are the ONLY one's that do that.

YOU, as you make clear by your remarks, believe that you are "entitled" because you gave and that you are more entitled that any or all of the others, who make no such claims.

YOUR group has a history of doing this. During the Eastern Strike, YOURS was the MEC that complained constantly about what you "gave" to the rEAL pilots, when in fact there were more Delta pilots that refused to pay the EAL assessment that the entire CMR list at the time. YOU were the ONLY major airline in ALPA that could not find a way to hire any of the rEAL pilots, excepting two scabs. Even tiny Comair managed to hire more rEAL pilots than mighty Delta. When they needed you, you made excuses. United didn't, NWA didn't, USAir didn't, YOU did.

YOURs is the pilot group that constantly reminds the National Association of how much YOU pay in dues, and that frequently threatens to take your marbles and leave when you can't get what you want immediately.

Like I said, yours is the group that has a reputation for throwing you weight around based on your money, rather than your know-how or solidarity. Yours is the group that comes up with duplicitous and expensive tracking systems for yourself and then demands that the rest of us reimburse you, while you reject tried and true systems such as those produced by the NW pilots.

Yes fellas, YOU have a reputation and some of us know what it is and are not afraid to reveal it. You are hardly in a position to criticize us. I don't like embarrasing the decent Delta pilots of whom there are a great many, but you two need to be told the truth.

We thank those of you that gave and remain silent about it like the other 90% of ALPA. To those of you that constantly ring your own bell and demand special treatment I say ....... bug off.

 

[letthebigdogeat]

.....'Nuff said....AMEN!

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1 and letthebigdogeat,


Whatever dudes. I was there--during your strike. I saw what happened, and even during our C2K negotiations---I saw your guys wanting date of hire. I saw it! You can't hide. I saw everything, and I saw our guys trying to support you the best way they could---legally. We (and other ALPA carriers---which I consistantly say by the way....) overwhelmingly thought you would win, and we were hoping you would. We all spent a heck of a lot more money this time around than we did for the rEAL strike----and I didn't hear one guy get mad about doing it. Then, drum roll please----you lost. It sucked, and we all were injured--including our company losing over $1 billion in the ordeal. But, we showed you that we, along with other ALPA carriers, were for your cause and tried to support you the best we could. A lot of our guys that are now on furlough wrote checks for YOU.

Then 9-11 came, and we lost a bunch of passengers and had to furlough. Now it was our furloughs time of need----and what did you do to help just a fraction of our pilots? Drum roll please.......You told our MEC that you wanted something in return for helping our guys. You WANTED something---even though this was our guys TIME OF NEED. You wanted more 70 seaters, you wanted less scope, you you you you. The ASA guys didn't care---they helped our guys---they put them AT THE BOTTOM---which didn't hurt anyone there. You guys claim "Oh, sorry, we can't help you---it is a POLICY---we can't help that it is A POLICY to resign your number, even though our sister airline can do it......" What a joke. We (along with others) helped you out---and you couldn't return the favor. Oh yeah---why couldn't you do that for furloughed USAir guys etc..?? Well, USAir doesn't OWN YOU. Why did ASA allow it? They didn't allow USAir guys to not resign their numbers---only Delta guys. That is your achillies heal. Oh yeah, it was your management..... How about ASA's management? Oh, that's right---you had to bring in your buddies from Sanford---to keep that money train running.....You had to allow seminole drivers access to your RJs before ex-737 drivers.... That won't be forgotten--and I wasn't even furloughed.....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Jim]

FDJ2 & General,

We are extremely grateful to our "fellow ALPA pilots" for the assistance they gave us.

Yet you pay all the ALPA pilots that helped you back with the RDJC..is that's your idea of graditude?

 

[General Lee]

Jim,


They got three years of unbelievable growth---many many new RJs and upgrades. Now, the passengers are back--and they want that growth to continue--even though we still have close to 1000 guys on the street. (Many who were Comair pilots) I totally expect them to also write a "mean, nasty" letter to other people---including:

1. Dave Neeleman--CEO of Jetblue---for hurting their earning potential with the new E190 rates.

2. Santa Clause---for not giving them new 737s last Xmas

They will threaten everyone.......watch out Jim! Watch out! Becareful what you say!!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Prattle!

 

[standaman]

That is your achillies heal. Oh yeah, it was your management..... How about ASA's management? Oh, that's right---you had to bring in your buddies from Sanford---to keep that money train running.....You had to allow seminole drivers access to your RJs before ex-737 drivers.... That won't be forgotten--and I wasn't even furloughed.....



Bye Bye--General Lee

General

I want to start out with that I respect your posts and point of view. I just want to be clear that you don't have a personal problem with the seminole drivers from Sanford since I happen to be one. I believe your anger is directed toward Comair management in this post. I am just checking to make sure. For I have gone to war with several here at flightinfo who call us second class. Just my nature to defend my own as you do.