Delta Pilot Deal Allows Huge Increase In 70-Seat Flying

[amcnd]

Would you have to get rid of some 50 seat CRJ's if more 70's come. What is the % of connection flying now? It said in the Delta mag. that ther were over 500 RJ's in the delta fleet.

 

[surplus1]

If I'm not mistaken ASA and CMR combined currently do more than 25% of DCI flying. Therefore, ALPA has agreed that a percentage of ASA & CMR flying is "up for grabs" by those DCI carriers that are NOT subsidiaries of Delta.

Do the math and you may discover that the difference between the percentage of DCI flying currently done by ASA/CMR and the new 25% minimum is approximately equal to the 70-seat flying that ASA/CMR (combined) currently have.

ALPA has just laid the ground work for ASA and CMR's present 70-seaters to be transferred to CHQ, SKYW or a "new" DCI carrier. In other words ALPA is supporting the outsourcing of flying done by ALPA members to carriers that are NOT members of ALPA.

With "friends" like this who needs enemies?

 

[DAL737FO]

If I'm not mistaken ASA and CMR combined currently do more than 25% of DCI flying. Therefore, ALPA has agreed that a percentage of ASA & CMR flying is "up for grabs" by those DCI carriers that are NOT subsidiaries of Delta.

Surplus do you have a reading comprehension problem. The new TA makes Delta provide 25% of total Delta flying, not DCI, to ASA and Comair. That is a significant increase in flying for you guys. Not only that, it provides you the scope that you did not negotiate for yourself.


With "friends" like this who needs enemies?

Let's see. You are going to see a significant increase in flying (25% of total Delta, Inc. flying), you have the opportunity to fly a significant increase in 70 seat aircraft
2005 82 70 seaters
2006 106 70 seaters
2007 125 70 seaters
2008 125 70 seaters
2009 125 70 seaters
(the old 57 70 seat limit is gone), The new TA wording allows the EMB-170 on ASA/Comair property (aircraft can weigh up to 85,000lbs but configured for 70 seats) and I know that you are going to laugh at this but you have the opportunity for preferential interviews when mainline eventually starts to hire again (maybe next century). So is this your definition of an enemy? Your hatred has blinded you and you can't even properly read a TA that has been posted for you. You must live in a very bitter world indeed.

B-727 Freight Dawg

 

[FL990]

If I'm not mistaken ASA and CMR combined currently do more than 25% of DCI flying. Therefore, ALPA has agreed that a percentage of ASA & CMR flying is "up for grabs" by those DCI carriers that are NOT subsidiaries of Delta.

Do the math and you may discover that the difference between the percentage of DCI flying currently done by ASA/CMR and the new 25% minimum is approximately equal to the 70-seat flying that ASA/CMR (combined) currently have.

ALPA has just laid the ground work for ASA and CMR's present 70-seaters to be transferred to CHQ, SKYW or a "new" DCI carrier. In other words ALPA is supporting the outsourcing of flying done by ALPA members to carriers that are NOT members of ALPA.

With "friends" like this who needs enemies?

I gotta agree with DAL737FO on this one...I think you are way off. It is important to note that the TA gives 25% of all Delta flying to split between ASA and CMR, NOT 25% of DCI flying. Another common misconception is 25% of Delta flights...this is also incorrect...it is 25% of Delta flying which is represented by block hours...so 25% of all Delta Block Hours...this should be a fairly substantial increase to what we are currently doing. While I do not have hard numbers, it should be noted that the average mainline flight is substantially longer than the average DCI flight and you can get the number of flights that each carrier flies in a day...which I have recently done and ASA/CMR combined opperate roughly 25% of the flight by number...not by hours...so there should be a substantial increase.

So, surplus, if you want to be pesimistic...which you obviously do...try to find negative outcomes in the ACTUAL TA and not the one you make up as you go along. I don't think they will sell us, but if they do, this would negate the 25% clause so there is something you could worry about. And this way you wouldn't be making up a new TA different from what was agreed upon...this way you can be truthfull and negative all at the same timel.

 

[~~~^~~~]

It is important to note that the TA gives 25% of all Delta flying to split between ASA and CMR, NOT 25% of DCI flying. Another common misconception is 25% of Delta flights...this is also incorrect...it is 25% of Delta flying which is represented by block hours...so 25% of all Delta Block Hours...this should be a fairly substantial increase to what we are currently doing. While I do not have hard numbers....

The RJDC has run the numbers and I imagine Surplus has seen that data. He is correct, that currently ASA and Comair exceed the 25% number. I think the current number is 29%+ ( based on ASA management sources ). Whether or not this "floor" is a help, or a hinderance, has yet to be seen.

We do know that at other carriers ( NW, CO, UA, US ) ALPA has negotiated deals which have provided incentives to move RJ flying off the property. It also seems that I read on this very board a recap of provisions which made it possible to fly the E170 at DCI by non wholly owned carriers, but not at ASA, or Comair. ALPA's position on this will likely depend on which airline has the sweetest J4J deal.... In the interim, ASA needs qualified pilots....

 

[FL990]

The RJDC has run the numbers and I imagine Surplus has seen that data. He is correct, that currently ASA and Comair exceed the 25% number. I think the current number is 29%+ ( based on ASA management sources ). Whether or not this "floor" is a help, or a hinderance, has yet to be seen.

Do you have a reference or a site where I can see this data for myself...because this does not sound correct at all. When I went on Delta Net and did some searching for numbers, I came up with between 25% -30% of the total number of flights in the delta system as being operated by ASA/CMR. However, this should by no means be in direct proportion to the total number of of block hours which is what the TA refers too (or at least that is what I have been told by ALPA MEC members that the TA refers too). The average Delta flight as i have said before is substantially longer than that of ASA/CMR.

Please don't take this the wrong way...I'm not calling you a liar...I would just like to know where I can find the DATA that you are refering to. Where is it posted?

 

[DAL737FO]

The RJDC has run the numbers and I imagine Surplus has seen that data. He is correct, that currently ASA and Comair exceed the 25% number. 25% of what? DCI flying or total Delta block hours? The new TA provides 25% of total Delta block hours to be flown by ASA and Comair. I think the current number is 29%+ ( based on ASA management sources ). Whether or not this "floor" is a help, or a hinderance, has yet to be seen. You know the answer to this but for some strange reason you just can't admit it.

We do know that at other carriers ( NW, CO, UA, US ) ALPA has negotiated deals which have provided incentives to move RJ flying off the property. And you will also notice that Delta has not taken the same path in the past. Delta has lead the way with the most liberal scope clause in the industry even prior to this latest TA. Delta has also not spun off it's wholly owned while retaining a majority interest like COEX. It also seems that I read on this very board a recap of provisions which made it possible to fly the E170 at DCI by non wholly owned carriers, but not at ASA, or Comair. Another fellow with a reading comprehension problem. I just posted in this very thread that ASA and Comair now have the ability to fly the EMB-170 with a change in this latest TA which allows aircraft to be flown up to 85,000lbs but configured for 70 seats. ALPA's position on this will likely depend on which airline has the sweetest J4J deal....J4J's was not mentioned anywhere in the new TA. I know you guys are having a real hard time with this but the only thing in the TA was preferential hiring for Delta furloughee's to the bottom of the seniority list at first year FO pay. In the interim, ASA needs qualified pilots....

Obviously ASA also needs pilots that can move forward and drop all the conspiracy theories. Believe it or not the big bad mainline pilots are not out to get you. This TA actually has helped you. You now have your own scope. 25% of total Delta Air lines, inc flying now belongs to you. If you want a copy of the entire TA PM me your e-mail and I'll send it to you. It is 81 pages long and is in PDF format.

 

[exm3585]

I thought DCI was already doing 49% per Deltas last side letter. Earlier this year, Butrell sid in a company news letter that the WO's were doing 75% of all DCI flying.

So if DCI can now do 50%, up from 49%, (it may of been 49.4%), and CMR and ASA WERE doing 75% of the 49%, and now are "guaranteed" 25%, then I don't see how we will be increasing at all.

There was a reason mgt. insisted on these numbers, and I'm sure it aint good.

Now comes the block hour argument, and if this is in fact differant than it is now, I guess it blows my theary out the window. I would be curios if it is true. But no matter how you look at it, the WO's are guarenteed half of DCI flying,....i think.......Beer?

 

[chperplt]

I would be curios if it is true.

Read the TA

 

[michael707767]

If I'm not mistaken ASA and CMR combined currently do more than 25% of DCI flying. Therefore, ALPA has agreed that a percentage of ASA & CMR flying is "up for grabs" by those DCI carriers that are NOT subsidiaries of Delta.

Do the math and you may discover that the difference between the percentage of DCI flying currently done by ASA/CMR and the new 25% minimum is approximately equal to the 70-seat flying that ASA/CMR (combined) currently have.

ALPA has just laid the ground work for ASA and CMR's present 70-seaters to be transferred to CHQ, SKYW or a "new" DCI carrier. In other words ALPA is supporting the outsourcing of flying done by ALPA members to carriers that are NOT members of ALPA.

With "friends" like this who needs enemies?

Surplus, that is bullsh*t and you know it. First of all the 25% is defined by block hours. Not flights, not ASMs, block hours. I am willing to bet you are not at 25% of block hours. Second, even if you are, the TA does not say that ASA/CMR cannot do more than 25% of DAL flying, just that they have to perform at least that much. It does not say or imply that flying has to be transfered, or that you cannot get more DCI flying.

Nothing changes on the upside and you get some protection on the downside.

If you don't want it, just say so, I am sure the Delta MEC and Delta management would have no problem taking that out of there.

 

[DAL737FO]

For those of you that want a copy of the TA, it is almost 1 meg to download so it's pretty big if you have dial up.

 

[USCtrojan]

Dci

I must admit, the DAL contract for the DCI wholly owned Subs is a step in the right direction. The Delta pilots did not have to add 25% for the Subs, and they did. I cannot for the life of me, find one negative thing about this. Not trying to gang up on anyone here, but the contract is what it is. This is a great gesture by the Delta pilots and I for one applaud them. I don't see this is a conspiracy theory.

Trojan

 

[ThisistheDream]

From what i heard at Comair is if ASA/CMR can fly 25% of DAL flying thats 12.5% each, if its split 50 50. if thats the case Comair could lose flying since we are already flying more than 12.5% of DAL flying. So with the new contract DAL could take some planes and flying from Comair and give it to anyone to keep Comair at the that 12.5%.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, that is bullsh*t and you know it. First of all the 25% is defined by block hours. Not flights, not ASMs, block hours. I am willing to bet you are not at 25% of block hours.

You are correct, it is 25% of ALL Delta system block hours (sorry I didn't phrase it perfectly although that IS what I meant).

Since you obviously feel (with 737 and others) that this is some sort of a bonanza for which we should once more kiss your posteriors in gratitude, why don't you prove that my thoughts are all BS by publishing the actual numbers?

What are your current "system" block hours? What are the current block hours flown by ASA and CMR combined? What percentage of the total does ASA/CMR flying currently represent, is it more than 25% or less than 25%? What's the "difference" (increase or decrease) resulting from the new "miracle" number?

If I'm wrong I'll be happy to admit it but show me with real numbers. I'm a pessimist and I'm not interested in rhetoric about how nice you are. Show me the real numbers and if I'm wrong I'll apologize.

Second, even if you are, the TA does not say that ASA/CMR cannot do more than 25% of DAL flying, just that they have to perform at least that much. It does not say or imply that flying has to be transfered, or that you cannot get more DCI flying.

You are correct and I'm fully aware of that. What's your point? Am I supposed to consider myself blessed? Remember, I do not recognize your alleged right to determine whether or not we should fly more or less. You have no such right. I din't ask you to negotiate on my behalf and I don't recognize your right to do so.

Secondly, the way ALPA has structured your TA virtually guarantees one of two things, 1) we will be forced to take concessions in an effort to keep the flying we already have, or 2) the "new" flying will go to the two non-ALPA carriers that are presently part of DCI or a 3rd party that is added to the lot.

Why is that? Simple, ASA and CMR contracts and compensation are superior to those of CHQ and SKYW. The flying added (if any) will go to the lowest bidder. Your new ALPA TA facilitates and encourages that.

If what you're looking for is a pat on the back for doing us a favor, then the percentages ASA/CMR are "guaranteed" should be higher that the percentage ASA/CMR already fly. If the 25% is the same as current or lower than current, then the TA facilitates movement of any growth to the non-ALPA carriers. Like I said above, show me the real numbers, I'm not interested in the spin. If I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected.

If you don't want it, just say so, I am sure the Delta MEC and Delta management would have no problem taking that out of there.

The way you couch that it sounds like you want me to believe that the Delta MEC went to the mat on behalf of ASA and CMR and that it was a struggle against Delta management on our behalf. Next you'll be telling me that your own concessions would have been less if you had not sacrificed to ensure our survival. Is that what you want me to believe? If it is, go blow that smoke up some other orifice.

What's in that TA (with respect to DCI, ASA, CMR and the additional 70-seaters) is not there because of any effort on the part of the Delta MEC, it is there because that is what the Company wanted.

I'm not blaming you for that in any way. Just don't expect credit where none is due.

 

[Realyman]

I think DCI should get a lot more 70 seaters.


BOTTOM LINE IS THEY MAKE $$$$$$!!!!! If you don't understand that, get out of the business. Airlines are in business to make cash flow. ..Green....duckets......dinero.....whatever you want to call it foo!!!!!!!

If you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen!!!

I like the -700, it is a great RJ. I would even fly the 737 left seat for $133/hour.

Bring it on management!!!!! Give the bling bling to the sing sing.....ring ring.

FOR REAL??? FOR RiZZeaL!!!!!!!!


Anyways, more RJs!!!!! WHo Who!!!
Now shutup and let me get my ATR captain award....!!!!