Delta Pilot Deal Allows Huge Increase In 70-Seat Flying

[sweptback]

Am I guessing or does it sound like nobody knows what the block hours really are?

I think you're correct. I've been looking for that information on DeltaNet and either I can't find it or it doesn't exist.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Am I guessing or does it sound like nobody knows what the block hours really are?

I believe ALPA national knows what percentage of DAL flying is done by ASA and CMR. I wonder if the ASA and CMR MECs have bothered to ask ALPA national for these numbers? I wonder if ALPA national will furnish this information?

 

[InclusiveScope]

Surplus,

Since you spoke first, I think it's only fair that YOU provide the proof to back up your previous statement that ALPA is screwing us.

You can't make a unfounded charge, have someone attempt to defend themselves, then turn around and ask THEM to prove they're innocent. The burden of proof lies with the accuser, which you are.

Here was your statement:


Let's see YOU do the math and provide us with the block hour figures.

Regards,
If4f, moderator

If4f,
Has ALPA furnished the ASA and CMR MECs the block hour figures?

 

[exm3585]

I am new to this board. A lot of interesting post.


For what it's worth, I just looked at our bid packet and here are the numbers it has.

Nov. est. block hours....37,095

Dec. est. block hours....39,107

So using those two months, it averages out to 38,101

 

[DAL737FO]

I am new to this board. A lot of interesting post.


For what it's worth, I just looked at our bid packet and here are the numbers it has.

Nov. est. block hours....37,095

Dec. est. block hours....39,107

So using those two months, it averages out to 38,101

So by the new TA the block hours for mainline are suppose to be 1,900,000 and mainline has to fly atleast 50% of total Delta, Inc. flying. So lets just say that mainline flies right at the 50% so total Delta, Inc. flying would be 3,800,000 now 25% of that would be 950,000 hours/ ASA&Comair = 475,000 block hours each or 39,583 a month which is slightly better than you are currently doing during December of this year but almost 1,500 block hours better than your two month average. Now the problem with this math is that assumes that ASA and Comair are the same size right now. I don't know which company you posted for. Also this math just divides the block hours by 12 which we all know that we fly more in the summer and during the holidays than during other months of the year. The only way we get some real numbers is to basically have the total Delta system block hours year to date. This would include all the portfolio regionals, international codeshare etc.

 

[surplus1]

I believe ALPA national knows what percentage of DAL flying is done by ASA and CMR. I wonder if the ASA and CMR MECs have bothered to ask ALPA national for these numbers? I wonder if ALPA national will furnish this information?

It is reasonable to assume that ALPA national knows the Delta mainline block hours. It is also probable that they know the ASA and CMR block hours. That information would have (presumably) been given to them by Delta. They would have no way to know the block hours at CHQ or SKYW (which form a part of the total) unless that was also provided by Delta. Such information is normally proprietary and closely guarded, so it is probably covered under a confidentiality agreement of some sort.

I don't know but I doubt that the CMR MEC has those hours since they did not even have a copy of the TA for a long time after it was a "done deal", even though they came out "in support" of it (without knowing its content). Perhaps the ASA MEC has a better "in" but my guess is they don't. If they did ask National for the information my educated guess would be they didn't get it.

I surmise that ASA and CMR management each know their own block hours, but don't necessarily know Delta mainline block hours and don't have a clue as to SKYW or CHQ. They can only get this information if Delta chooses to give it to them or if the managements of their competitors do so. Why would you give your competitor that kind of information?

Can those "hours" be found out? Yes, but should that be for public consumption in a public forum?

As line pilots it is highly improbable that we know the real numbers, regardless of which unit we fly for. Therefore, the arguments will likely remain a matter of unproven opinion. I still maintain that current ASA/CMR block hours exceed 25% of Delta system block hours. If I am correct, the 25% figure provides no benefit to ASA/CMR (ref new equipment) and leaves Delta just as free to transfer equipment to other carriers as it was before the TA. In fact it could actually promote the transfer of any flying that exceeds the 25% floor. I also maintain that the provisions of the TA encourage that any new equipment will go to carriers other than ASA/CMR, and so may some of the current 70-seat equipment. Time will tell.

I said I didn't blame the Delta pilots and I don't. The Delta MEC has no obligation to represent the interests of ASA/CMR pilots and they aren't. ALPA however, does have such an obligation. When an ALPA Agreement facilitates the outsourcing of flying to a non-ALPA carrier(s), one has to wonder why.

The recent NWA TA, which increases NWAC's ability to augment "regional" flying also prevents that flying from being "given" to two ALPA carriers (MSA/PCL) but does not prevent its being placed with a non-ALPA carrier. At best, that's an interesting way for a union to protect the interests of its members. So is the new Delta TA, given that all DCI carrier's pilots are not members of the ALPA.

It is sometimes difficult to see the forest when the landscape is so cluttered with trees, as manifest in the remarks of FL990 whose very high altitude appears to blur the details of the terrain.

 

[FL990]

It is sometimes difficult to see the forest when the landscape is so cluttered with trees, as manifest in the remarks of FL990 whose very high altitude appears to blur the details of the terrain.

Ok, this is that last thing I plan to post on this topic. I think we have beat it to death. It is very possible that we are at or above 25%...who knows...I don't think we are above it, but we could be right at it. In terms of conflict of interest or whatever it was you were saying about Delta not giving our company all the numbers...I disagree that it would be a conflict of interest. We are wholely owned...we are one entity...that would be like saying the accounting department can't talk to the finance department. They (someone at ASA/CMR) know what the totals are and they are very aware of what we are doing right now(percentage wise). I also disagree with the statement that this 25% clause poses no protection or support for ASA/CMR. Even if we are at 25% currently...I have seen the planned block hours proposed in the TA...I have the entire 80 something page copy. Delta's Block hours increase every year and thus the system increases every year, thus we must, under the current TA, increase as well to maintain the 25%...even if we are already at it. This is because, essentially, what the contract has done is prevented DAL mainline or anyone else for that matter from taking our flying (in excess of the 25%) and it has prevented us from taking theirs (in excess of 50%). Lets say we aren't at or below the 25%...lets say we do more right now. Ok, we still have protection...we still can't go below..unless they sell us...and that may not be so bad. Think about it...lets say they sold us and offered us out on IPO similar to what happened with Co-Ex. Who the heck would buy our stock if they thought as soon as we were sold off, Delta would dump our flying....Answer...no one.

I still think this is a good thing for us. I don't particularly care for the RJDC because there sole mission is to attack the union. Whether or not you like the union, it is the only real representation we have and the only power that the union has is in UNITY. If they break us up, regardless of there intentions, they are hurting our bargaining power.

 

[michael707767]

I'm not blaming you for that in any way. Just don't expect credit where none is due.

I don't want any credit, nor do I want any blame. Just don't try to paint it as something it is not. Frankly, it really changes nothing. So you do more than 25% now, big deal. This does not change that and you know it. It is not a bad deal for you guys, and I understand it is also not a good deal. But don't go around implying that this was done to screw you guys. This TA does not facilitate outsourcing. It still allows it, for sure, but there are limits on it. Like it or not, want it or not, with this deal you will always fly AT LEAST 25% of the Delta block hours. Can you tell me how that is a bad thing?

 

[FDJ2]

Surplus, the Delta pilots negotiated more DCI scope for the CMR pilots then you ever did for yourself. You now at least have some scope, which is better then the zero scope you had before.

 

[bvt1151]

Surplus, the Delta pilots negotiated more DCI scope for the CMR pilots then you ever did for yourself. You now at least have some scope, which is better then the zero scope you had before.

And exactly how are we supposed to negotiate scope? We aren't allowed to negotiate with the people who would grant us scope. DALPA made sure of that. We can negotiate with Comair that 100% of Comair flying is flown by Comair pilots, but all Fred has to do is move aircraft and turn the "Comair flying" into "Chautauqua flying" and we have absolutely no control, no matter how "inclusive" our own scope was.
Therefore we had to negotiate through you, which has proven next to impossible throughout the years. Finally something was done, although it was nothing more than a token gesture. The only real accomplishment was to prevent Delta from selling either ASA or Comair...at least not without renegotiating (or forgetting) the new scope clause. I'm not convinced that being forced to stay attached to the Deltanic is really where we want to be.
Now that you have accomplished nothing, you demand credit? I can't believe our reps got us so excited for this scope information that does nothing to stem the whipsaw. This is what we've been waiting for!?!?!
Fortunately there are those of us who see past the hype to the true snowjob.