Delta pay cuts not enough ?

[embdrvr]

Re: It's about averages of final few years

embdvr,

So, if you knew that a pay cut was coming (regardless of the size), wouldn't you be incented to get out early if you were making a lot now and could expect a little less in the coming years - your average would DECLINE. So, you would bail now. Get it? It has NOTHING to do with Delta's overall potential for success or future retirement - it is a monetary decision based on averages....

So how low would the average have to go to make up for the 500-800K lost by not working those last few years. They guys I spoke with didn't mention averages. They were afraid the pension might not be there if they stuck it out. Those are their words not mine.

I wish everyone at DAL the best and always have. DAL mainline needs to realize though that it is not realistic for DCI pilots to be taking a pay cut on account of DAL mismanagement and the kind of payscale enjoyed by mainline. If DCI guys take the cut what will they get in return? Your MEC has already made it clear that they expect something in return. We all know that the DCI crowd would get nothing but a passing acknowledgement and a thank you. Meanwhile our FO's collect food stamps.

 

[General Lee]

Embdrvr,

There are many other reasons we are having so many early retirements. First, your retirement at Delta is based off of your BEST three years, not your last three. With upcoming pay cuts, some guys already had there best three years. Another reason is the parking of the MD-11's. A lot of those Capt's were maybe 57 or 58 years old, and they figure they would make less on the 767ER, and don't want to go to another school. Yet another reason is the GATT rate, which will be the lowest ever on June 1st. The GATT rate is tied into a retirement equation, and the better it is, the better your retirement income. Apparently the GATT rate goes up when interest rates go up, and they are slowly coming up. Some guys pulled their May papers and resubmitted them for June 1st due to the better GATT rate. And a lot of the pilots are probably tired of all the crap they have to put up with--like strip searches from the TSA etc. You have to remember that the pension shortfall is a function of the stock market. I read that if the stock market goes up a full 10%, then the pension shortfall would vanish. The airlines aren't the only ones with pension problems, companies like Ford and GM have the same problems. As the economy gets better, the shortfall will vanish.

I hope that clears it up for you. The more retirements, the better it is for everybody. Sure, there is a short term training problem, but everyone moves up and the furloughs are closer to eventually coming back. I still think the other employee groups should try to help in the name of teamwork, but if they don't want to --that is up to them I guess.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Embdrvr,

There are many other reasons we are having so many early retirements. First, your retirement at Delta is based off of your BEST three years, not your last three. With upcoming pay cuts, some guys already had their best three years. Another reason is the parking of the MD-11's. A lot of those Capt's were maybe 57 or 58 years old, and they figure they would make less on the 767ER, and don't want to go to another school. Yet another reason is the GATT rate, which will be the lowest ever on June 1st. The GATT rate is tied into a retirement equation, and the better it is, the better your retirement income. Apparently the GATT rate goes up when interest rates go up, and they are slowly coming up. Some guys pulled their May papers and resubmitted them for June 1st due to the better GATT rate. And a lot of the pilots are probably tired of all the crap they have to put up with--like strip searches from the TSA etc. You have to remember that the pension shortfall is a function of the stock market. I read that if the stock market goes up a full 10%, then the pension shortfall would vanish. The airlines aren't the only ones with pension problems, companies like Ford and GM have the same problems. As the economy gets better, the shortfall will vanish.

I hope that clears it up for you. The more retirements, the better it is for everybody. Sure, there is a short term training problem, but everyone moves up and the furloughs are closer to eventually coming back. I still think the other employee groups should try to help in the name of teamwork, but if they don't want to --that is up to them I guess.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

What should Delta pilots get in return?

I don't buy the argument that just because you don't make much money you should be exempt from contributing to the betterment of your company. Where is the teamwork? Would this happen at Southwest if cutbacks were required? I don't think so. Pilots there wouldn't be the sole contributors.... Comair and ASA pilots are probably paid more than Chataqua EMB or Mesa pilots - perhaps they should consider a pay cut to be competitive - just like Delta vs. United or AMR pilots? It is all about being cost competitive with your peers, right? Am I wrong? Even if Delta pilots make a huge amount more than their Comair or ASA brothers and sisters, shouldn't they want to be cost-competitive in their segment to help out the company in general? Double standard?

OK - for argument's sake, let's say that the Delta pilots should take the major hit and cut, say, 10% of their pay (could be a substantial amount of money). Well, if that is the case, should they not get allocated all 70-90 seat flying in the future to help return the furloughees to the skies - in return? In addition, should they not expect other things in return? It's a negotiation - right? The Delta pilots are not obligated to negotiate AT ALL because of their contract. The war is ending and the "force mejeur" will no longer be in effect.... What should the Delta pilots GET IN RETURN FOR THEIR SACRIFICE when no other labor group at Delta is being forced to cut costs? Delta is in good financial shape - they will not go bankrupt.

What do you honestly think is fair in return for salary cuts? I'd like to know what you think is fair in return for a chunk of your take-home pay. What would you demand if your management demanded 10-15% of YOUR PAY? Regardless of your relative wage level (commuter or otherwise), what would you expect if you didn't HAVE TO NEGOTIATE?

If you were a Delta pilot and you anticipated potentially huge wage reductions, what would YOU want in return? Serious replies appreciated...

 

[BlackCoffee]

TBKANE,

You made the choice to leave, why you crying. Also you lie. You made $45.71 as a 4th year e-120 Capt, and $48hr DLX 737-200 1st year FO. Hang in there, you will get your job back and in the mean time don't forget about the friends you left behind at ASA. They were all happy for you. Support them and your new pilot group.

 

[tbkane]

Coffee,

Don't ever call me a liar. I never made it out of training so I never got off training pay so don't tell me what I have or have not made.. I am not crying either I made a decision and I stand by it, my post was to stop everyone saying how well off all Delta pilot are.

I am not for trying to squeeze every dime out of a ASA fo, I for one could barely live off that income the first time I was there, and couldn't afford it again. That said I am for trying to get Delta pilots work at a fair wage instead of hiring newbees off the street while we are furloughed. If that means we get the 70's for now so be it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: What should Delta pilots get in return?

I don't buy the argument that just because you don't make much money you should be exempt from contributing to the betterment of your company. Where is the teamwork?

ASA and Comair are the only profitable units of Delta, we do contribute to the betterment of the company.

Even if Delta pilots make a huge amount more than their Comair or ASA brothers and sisters, shouldn't they want to be cost-competitive in their segment to help out the company in general? Double standard?

According to your MEC we are not operationally integrated into Delta, which is it? Give me a Delta Seniority number - - - otherwise I don't have to talk to you, or your management about nothing.

OK - for argument's sake, let's say that the Delta pilots should take the major hit and cut, say, 10% of their pay (could be a substantial amount of money). Well, if that is the case, should they not get allocated all 70-90 seat flying in the future to help return the furloughees to the skies - in return?

No, your MEC sold code share in exchange for preservation of a pre-deregulation compensation structure. You sold it, it is being operated by another ALPA unit, it is no longer yours. Besides in your cost competitive scenario where you would like to see us all race for the bottom, we already hold the Pole Position. Right seat in the CRJ700 pay $19.02 the first year, $37.24 the second year and $38.38 in the third. If you guys had DOH on the equipment the pay would still be less than Delta's probationary pay. Do you really want to fly our schedules for $35.00 an hour? I did not think so.

Originally posted by Heavy Set What do you honestly think is fair in return for salary cuts? I'd like to know what you think is fair in return for a chunk of your take-home pay. Serious replies appreciated...

Seriously, if management gets all they are asking - YOU WILL STILL BE THE MOST HIGHLY COMPENSATED PILOT GROUP ON PLANET EARTH , that is not enough for you? How about keeping your job as compensation for not bleeding this Company into bankruptcy.

Sure cut the ASA pilots' pay by 10%, we would hardly notice since many of us work two jobs anyway. In my case, I have three employers now. You do realize that the cheaper we are, the more incentive Delta has to outsource more flying to our units.

And that outsourcing will continue because of your MEC's continued support for scope that does not work. If you want scope you have got to get everyone within one MEC, under one collective bargaining agreement. Otherwise the RJDC is correct, ALPA has an obligation to fairly represent pilot groups at ASA and Comair and that means not negotiating against them to suit your MEC's predatory whims during a market correction.

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

TBKANE,

I feel your pain, as well as any other pilot that's ever been furloughed. This is only my second one. (hopefully my last)
I also rolled the dice when I left a B727 Captain slot at ATA for DAL.

I have been monitoring this forum for a long time now and I understand and emphasize with what the JR and SR pilots are experiencing. I spent 15+ years to get into that DAL cockpit, only to have it yanked away.

Regardless of the reason that it was taken away, we have got to pull together as pilots in a profession and quit griping about who has it better of worse.

I understand how a lot of pilots feel about our jobs because I have been there. I know what it's like to fly beat up single and ME cargo planes and sleep on the hanger floor; Freeze your behind off in the blowing snow while that last passenger straggles across the ramp with their "18 wheeler rollaboard" for me to squeeze into the belly of the commuter plane; Feel the excitement of being hired by my first jet airline; Finally making jet captain, and slowing digging out of years of debt.

Now that I am furloughed from DAL, would I fly a RJ, or any other plane for that matter? Heck yes! I started this profession because I love to fly. I am confident that eventually I will also make a comfortable living at it. I am sure lots of other pilots feel the way I do, so let's stop bashing each other and start pulling for each other.

From what I have read on this forum so far, General Lee appears to have the big picture, and I would have to agree with most of his posts.

Hang in there everybody.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: Re: What should Delta pilots get in return?

Give me a Delta Seniority number

Say it loud now, so we all can understand.

Give me a Delta Seniority number

Hasn't that been the objective all along? Even as you and the "rest" repeatedly denied it?

Say it again, then.

Give me a Delta Seniority number

How about just GIVE ME!!

 

[JECKEL]

All I have heard for the last two years from Delta folks is that we are seperate companies, we are separate companies, we are separtate companies!! You are Comair. You Are ASA. We are Delta. If you want to be one of us, turn in an application and a resume.
But now we are suddenly a part of the Delta family, fellow employees, and should share part of the burden.
I feel deeply for what is happening at Delta mainline. I am against concessions for anyone especially when management is lining their pockets.
However...like you have said in the past, my paycheck does not say Delta Airlines and until it does, I will not "share" any burden.
I am open to working together with mainline and doing what I/we can to help pilots, but don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: Re: Re: What should Delta pilots get in return?

Say it loud now, so we all can understand. Hasn't that been the objective all along? Even as you and the "rest" repeatedly denied it? Say it again, then. How about just GIVE ME!!

Yes, when your airline is aquired by another airline, it is the best outcome for all involved.

Now that there are cuts to be made, you want us to take one for the team. So are we on the team, or not? If I'm on the team I need a number and a jersey.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

Many corporations own several units--like Disney. If Disney (the Corporation) was doing bad, then I bet all of the units would take cuts. Your unit is profitable right now, but that doesn't mean the "corporation" isn't out of the woods. You should know better.
Now I hope everything improves, and I think it will, but lack of wanting to help does show that infact you are not a team player.
You want to be on the team, but not when times require alittle give back. So, I guess you only want a piece when times are good? Whatever.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bladeusa]

All I have heard for the last two years from Delta folks is that we are seperate companies, we are separate companies, we are separtate companies!! You are Comair. You Are ASA. We are Delta. If you want to be one of us, turn in an application and a resume.
But now we are suddenly a part of the Delta family, fellow employees, and should share part of the burden.
I feel deeply for what is happening at Delta mainline. I am against concessions for anyone especially when management is lining their pockets.
However...like you have said in the past, my paycheck does not say Delta Airlines and until it does, I will not "share" any burden.
I am open to working together with mainline and doing what I/we can to help pilots, but don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.

exactly correct... couldnt have been said any better....

 

[Heavy Set]

ASA/Comair should reduce to Mesa level

Jeckel,

Your argument is misguided. If the United States were attacked by Mexico, would you claim that you don't have to defend it because you live in Georgia? Do you see the logic in that statement? In this case, the US represents mother Delta.

ASA and Comair are wholly-owned divisions of Delta. Both contribute revenues and costs to the total equation. It is unfair to target Delta mainline pilots as the ONLY SOURCE of employee wage cuts. The ONLY SOURCE? That is not teamwork and that does not hold the other employee groups accountable for their cost-control.

So, if Delta pilots have to reduce their wages to "peer" level (i.e., UAL and AMR) to be compeititve, I suggest that Comair and ASA pilots should ALSO REDUCE THEIR WAGES TO PEER LEVEL. Mesa and Chataqua have low RJ rates - let's suggest that ASA and Comair reduce their wage levels commensurate with the mainline reduction to finally come in line with "competitive rates." That would go a LONG WAY to improve the cost-position of the mother company. It would be the only FAIR thing to do if wage concessions are absolutely necessary - right?

 

[Freight Dog]

Not part of the Delta family, but here at Aloha, everyone from pilots to rampers took 10% paycuts across the board in order to get the ATSB loan. Management also took 10% pay cut. Island Air management (Aloha's wholly-owned regional subsidiary) took 10% cut. They did not ask employee groups at Island Air for pay cuts, but then again, Island Air pay rates are quite a bit lower than say those at ASA/CMR. New-hire rampers and CSA's at Island Air make minimum wage, so it'd be illegal for them to take a pay cut...

ASA and CMR may be profitable, but if Delta declared Chapter 11, wouldn't your contracts be also on the chopping block in front of the judge?

Just an observation from an outsider..

 

[sleepy]

This is pointless. DAL can't ask ASA and Comair for concessions. Only ASA and Comair management can ask for concessions. Both of us are very profitable right now (always have been), so management can't even think about doing so. The DAL management and pilots both have a vested interest in making sure that our three companies stay seperate, so DAL and Delts's ALPA MEC will never insist that we accept the same concessions that mainline employees accept. That would pull their whole (separate company) house of cards down.

DAL pilots will accept concessions. ASA will get a small pay raise in our next contract (Comair + 1% or something like that). DAL pilots will get some RJ's on the mainline for their furloughed pilots who can't find a job to fling elsewhere. The DCI whipsaw will continue to spin. We will still be debating this crap 10 years from now.

 

[P38JLightning]

peace treaty from general?

General, you said: "We understand your pain, but a 22% paycut for us would hurt a lot more than a 5% paycut for you. You guys can't give anything, even a small gesture?"


I think most Comair/ASA pilots would be more than willing to help the team, if there was any reason to believe we were part of a team in the first place.

Perhaps dropping the blackball against your union brothers at Comair (many of whom do not support the MEC's stance regarding hiring furloughs without resigning their number) would be a good start. Pref hiring with real numbers or percentages for Comair/ASA pilots would be another team building stepping stone. Besides it would flame the Comair MEC big time. Remember, having pilots junior to them and their RJDC brothers eventualy go to Delta "ahead of" them was probably the main reason they nixed the furlough for pref hiring deal in the first place. Your blackball is exactly what they've wanted for a long time.

We could put some of this crap behind us and all pull together for the same team for once. What do you think?

 

[Heavy Set]

P38,

I like your thinking - you are looking at the situation as a "whole" vs. separate pieces. Although I am not a Delta pilot, I know a lot of Delta pilots who were former ASA or Comair pilots. I think they would agree that some form of flow-through might be appropriate - they have it now at AMR (although the Eagle guys will be stuck for awhile due to the new contract) and used to have it at Continental... But, of course, Comair's recent reluctance to help furloughed Delta guys has not helped...

As Sleepy would tell us, we are going around in circles. In any case, restoring Delta to its financial glory will require A LOT more than just reducing mainline pilot wages.... It will require a unified effort and teamwork - and a huge cutback on executive greed....

 

[FLB717]

Heavy I saw that you would love to work on the 717 but let me give you some advice. I was a CMR guy and was treated very poorly by many DALPA pilots because I was CMR. Some were great but they were a minority. I was told "we own you" or we are NOT the same company " but now really junior pilots at DALPA want those commuter scum to give concesions? Sure pay off my 10K debt for walking the picket line and Ill think about it.The attitude of we are not the same replaced by help us out just doesnt fly. After 9/11 our SENIOR pilots pushed for and got a temp paycut so that Junior guys like me would not be cut. Why have the DALPA boys not done the same. Could it be "Well as long as I get mine" Now it seems to be that they want to take what was not rightfuly thiers. As far as some saying we tried to give Comair/ASA a flow through and they turned it down, well no Sh*t. It was based on a percentage if people based on the number of current and furture pilots at Delta. And anyone hired for around 6-8 years would go in the middle of the combined list, yet if cuts were made it would have been and instrant flow down. No I wonder why that was turned down.I hope you were being sarcastic about reducing wages to those of Mesa et al. United rates on the 737-500 are now lower than those for us on the 717. And we are profitable (not much). But we are just a LCC and are bringing down the field, you rally want to be one of us? I for one NEVER want to see ALPA at AAI. We have first rate Union and a great contract all without ALPA. And we support and like and want our brothers from Air Wiskey flying with us. Go figure, I quess I never be a REAL MAINLINE PILOT.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Heavy I saw that you would love to work on the 717 but let me give you some advice. I was a CMR guy and was treated very poorly by many DALPA pilots because I was CMR. Some were great but they were a minority. I was told "we own you" or we are NOT the same company " but now really junior pilots at DALPA want those commuter scum to give concesions? Sure pay off my 10K debt for walking the picket line and Ill think about it.The attitude of we are not the same replaced by help us out just doesnt fly. After 9/11 our SENIOR pilots pushed for and got a temp paycut so that Junior guys like me would not be cut. Why have the DALPA boys not done the same. Could it be "Well as long as I get mine" Now it seems to be that they want to take what was not rightfuly thiers. As far as some saying we tried to give Comair/ASA a flow through and they turned it down, well no Sh*t. It was based on a percentage if people based on the number of current and furture pilots at Delta. And anyone hired for around 6-8 years would go in the middle of the combined list, yet if cuts were made it would have been and instrant flow down. No I wonder why that was turned down.I hope you were being sarcastic about reducing wages to those of Mesa et al. United rates on the 737-500 are now lower than those for us on the 717. And we are profitable (not much). But we are just a LCC and are bringing down the field, you rally want to be one of us? I for one NEVER want to see ALPA at AAI. We have first rate Union and a great contract all without ALPA. And we support and like and want our brothers from Air Wiskey flying with us. Go figure, I quess I never be a REAL MAINLINE PILOT.

Dude, are you drunk or do you always write like that?

Sorry just busting your stones.

I rally wish you luck I quess.