Delta pay cuts not enough ?

[g159av8tor]

I know a guy that was a 767 FO, he was bumped twice, to MD88 FO and now 737-200 Fo in ATL. He just took at $35,000 a year pay cut. But, he is still flying.

If I took a $35K/YR paycut I'd make a negative salary. And still the IRS would get me for something! But I'd be flying!!!

Tailwinds...

 

[g159av8tor]

Anyway enough, NO CONCESSIONS, not for comair, ASA or Delta. If an airline cannot afford to pay a new hire pilot a descent wage, they don't deserve to be in business.

NYR

I agree 100,000,000,000,000.00%

Tailwinds...

 

[B1900DFO]

Are you sure that it is the average of their last 3 years? I know at UAL it is the average of your HIGHEST 3 years, meaning your last year or two might not even be in the equation.

As for paycuts I imagine Mullin is asking for them becuase this is a golden opportunity given UAL, AMR, and US Air givebacks. He would be an idiot not to ask for anything after the public, the administration, and even fellow pilots seem to think that we are dutybound to try and save this industry through concessions. Mullin is probably just doing his duty and I imagine DAL pilots will do thiers by telling him to forget about it. Years of mismanagement, ridiculous taxation, stock buy-backs, etc and now analysts will have you believe that the industry's woes are due to bloated contracts. I still haven't broken 30k but I've been told I make too much relative to the competition (mesa) and soon after was forced to take a pay cut.

If Dal gets to the point that they need concessions to stay out of bankruptcy then I"m sure every other major out there will be in Ch11 and pay cuts won't do a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing to save the ship.

 

[g159av8tor]

I for one was a Delta FO, and I never made squat at Delta. I made more at ASA than Delta. I would be in a better financial position at ASA.

Heavy Set,

I'm not going to research the ASA and DAL contracts, but I know after YR 2 and definately by YR 3 you'd make more at DAL than you'd ever dream of at ASA on any equipment. You weren't there long enough after you took the 2 steps back to take the 3 steps forward in minimal time.

I know that may sound scathing, but it's reality and you know it. Also, it's also a reality you're furloughed. I don't know your personal perdicament, but I empathize your situation. I've got two friends furloughed from DAL (and other majors as well). One DAL pilot I've lost track of recently and the other just bought a house in MLB, had a baby, wife took a leave from DAL as a FA (single income)...he's installing swimming pools and hoping to get his old Lear job back.

Tailwinds...

 

[Heavy Set]

I may have mispoken - I think the annual pension is a % of your last 3 years worth of salary... Regardless, your annual pension would decline if you stayed on and accepted a lower wage per year - that is one reason for the recent jump in retirements. Yeah, I don't know the exact details, but that is the jist of it....

I have never flown for Delta - I wish I had the opportunity. I do know a bunch of Delta pilots, though. Regardless, I am trying to instill some logic into these sometimes emotional posts....

Sure, Delta pilots make more than most other pilots on a relative basis, but that doesn't mean they should bare all of the cost-cutting burden - that's all I am saying... All Delta employees should share at least SOME of the cost-cutting pain - including the guys and gals at Comair and ASA - maybe a weighted percentage - it's only fair............................

 

[embdrvr]

Re: It's about averages of final few years

embdvr,

So, if you knew that a pay cut was coming (regardless of the size), wouldn't you be incented to get out early if you were making a lot now and could expect a little less in the coming years - your average would DECLINE. So, you would bail now. Get it? It has NOTHING to do with Delta's overall potential for success or future retirement - it is a monetary decision based on averages....

So how low would the average have to go to make up for the 500-800K lost by not working those last few years. They guys I spoke with didn't mention averages. They were afraid the pension might not be there if they stuck it out. Those are their words not mine.

I wish everyone at DAL the best and always have. DAL mainline needs to realize though that it is not realistic for DCI pilots to be taking a pay cut on account of DAL mismanagement and the kind of payscale enjoyed by mainline. If DCI guys take the cut what will they get in return? Your MEC has already made it clear that they expect something in return. We all know that the DCI crowd would get nothing but a passing acknowledgement and a thank you. Meanwhile our FO's collect food stamps.

 

[General Lee]

Embdrvr,

There are many other reasons we are having so many early retirements. First, your retirement at Delta is based off of your BEST three years, not your last three. With upcoming pay cuts, some guys already had there best three years. Another reason is the parking of the MD-11's. A lot of those Capt's were maybe 57 or 58 years old, and they figure they would make less on the 767ER, and don't want to go to another school. Yet another reason is the GATT rate, which will be the lowest ever on June 1st. The GATT rate is tied into a retirement equation, and the better it is, the better your retirement income. Apparently the GATT rate goes up when interest rates go up, and they are slowly coming up. Some guys pulled their May papers and resubmitted them for June 1st due to the better GATT rate. And a lot of the pilots are probably tired of all the crap they have to put up with--like strip searches from the TSA etc. You have to remember that the pension shortfall is a function of the stock market. I read that if the stock market goes up a full 10%, then the pension shortfall would vanish. The airlines aren't the only ones with pension problems, companies like Ford and GM have the same problems. As the economy gets better, the shortfall will vanish.

I hope that clears it up for you. The more retirements, the better it is for everybody. Sure, there is a short term training problem, but everyone moves up and the furloughs are closer to eventually coming back. I still think the other employee groups should try to help in the name of teamwork, but if they don't want to --that is up to them I guess.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Embdrvr,

There are many other reasons we are having so many early retirements. First, your retirement at Delta is based off of your BEST three years, not your last three. With upcoming pay cuts, some guys already had their best three years. Another reason is the parking of the MD-11's. A lot of those Capt's were maybe 57 or 58 years old, and they figure they would make less on the 767ER, and don't want to go to another school. Yet another reason is the GATT rate, which will be the lowest ever on June 1st. The GATT rate is tied into a retirement equation, and the better it is, the better your retirement income. Apparently the GATT rate goes up when interest rates go up, and they are slowly coming up. Some guys pulled their May papers and resubmitted them for June 1st due to the better GATT rate. And a lot of the pilots are probably tired of all the crap they have to put up with--like strip searches from the TSA etc. You have to remember that the pension shortfall is a function of the stock market. I read that if the stock market goes up a full 10%, then the pension shortfall would vanish. The airlines aren't the only ones with pension problems, companies like Ford and GM have the same problems. As the economy gets better, the shortfall will vanish.

I hope that clears it up for you. The more retirements, the better it is for everybody. Sure, there is a short term training problem, but everyone moves up and the furloughs are closer to eventually coming back. I still think the other employee groups should try to help in the name of teamwork, but if they don't want to --that is up to them I guess.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

What should Delta pilots get in return?

I don't buy the argument that just because you don't make much money you should be exempt from contributing to the betterment of your company. Where is the teamwork? Would this happen at Southwest if cutbacks were required? I don't think so. Pilots there wouldn't be the sole contributors.... Comair and ASA pilots are probably paid more than Chataqua EMB or Mesa pilots - perhaps they should consider a pay cut to be competitive - just like Delta vs. United or AMR pilots? It is all about being cost competitive with your peers, right? Am I wrong? Even if Delta pilots make a huge amount more than their Comair or ASA brothers and sisters, shouldn't they want to be cost-competitive in their segment to help out the company in general? Double standard?

OK - for argument's sake, let's say that the Delta pilots should take the major hit and cut, say, 10% of their pay (could be a substantial amount of money). Well, if that is the case, should they not get allocated all 70-90 seat flying in the future to help return the furloughees to the skies - in return? In addition, should they not expect other things in return? It's a negotiation - right? The Delta pilots are not obligated to negotiate AT ALL because of their contract. The war is ending and the "force mejeur" will no longer be in effect.... What should the Delta pilots GET IN RETURN FOR THEIR SACRIFICE when no other labor group at Delta is being forced to cut costs? Delta is in good financial shape - they will not go bankrupt.

What do you honestly think is fair in return for salary cuts? I'd like to know what you think is fair in return for a chunk of your take-home pay. What would you demand if your management demanded 10-15% of YOUR PAY? Regardless of your relative wage level (commuter or otherwise), what would you expect if you didn't HAVE TO NEGOTIATE?

If you were a Delta pilot and you anticipated potentially huge wage reductions, what would YOU want in return? Serious replies appreciated...

 

[BlackCoffee]

TBKANE,

You made the choice to leave, why you crying. Also you lie. You made $45.71 as a 4th year e-120 Capt, and $48hr DLX 737-200 1st year FO. Hang in there, you will get your job back and in the mean time don't forget about the friends you left behind at ASA. They were all happy for you. Support them and your new pilot group.

 

[tbkane]

Coffee,

Don't ever call me a liar. I never made it out of training so I never got off training pay so don't tell me what I have or have not made.. I am not crying either I made a decision and I stand by it, my post was to stop everyone saying how well off all Delta pilot are.

I am not for trying to squeeze every dime out of a ASA fo, I for one could barely live off that income the first time I was there, and couldn't afford it again. That said I am for trying to get Delta pilots work at a fair wage instead of hiring newbees off the street while we are furloughed. If that means we get the 70's for now so be it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: What should Delta pilots get in return?

I don't buy the argument that just because you don't make much money you should be exempt from contributing to the betterment of your company. Where is the teamwork?

ASA and Comair are the only profitable units of Delta, we do contribute to the betterment of the company.

Even if Delta pilots make a huge amount more than their Comair or ASA brothers and sisters, shouldn't they want to be cost-competitive in their segment to help out the company in general? Double standard?

According to your MEC we are not operationally integrated into Delta, which is it? Give me a Delta Seniority number - - - otherwise I don't have to talk to you, or your management about nothing.

OK - for argument's sake, let's say that the Delta pilots should take the major hit and cut, say, 10% of their pay (could be a substantial amount of money). Well, if that is the case, should they not get allocated all 70-90 seat flying in the future to help return the furloughees to the skies - in return?

No, your MEC sold code share in exchange for preservation of a pre-deregulation compensation structure. You sold it, it is being operated by another ALPA unit, it is no longer yours. Besides in your cost competitive scenario where you would like to see us all race for the bottom, we already hold the Pole Position. Right seat in the CRJ700 pay $19.02 the first year, $37.24 the second year and $38.38 in the third. If you guys had DOH on the equipment the pay would still be less than Delta's probationary pay. Do you really want to fly our schedules for $35.00 an hour? I did not think so.

Originally posted by Heavy Set What do you honestly think is fair in return for salary cuts? I'd like to know what you think is fair in return for a chunk of your take-home pay. Serious replies appreciated...

Seriously, if management gets all they are asking - YOU WILL STILL BE THE MOST HIGHLY COMPENSATED PILOT GROUP ON PLANET EARTH , that is not enough for you? How about keeping your job as compensation for not bleeding this Company into bankruptcy.

Sure cut the ASA pilots' pay by 10%, we would hardly notice since many of us work two jobs anyway. In my case, I have three employers now. You do realize that the cheaper we are, the more incentive Delta has to outsource more flying to our units.

And that outsourcing will continue because of your MEC's continued support for scope that does not work. If you want scope you have got to get everyone within one MEC, under one collective bargaining agreement. Otherwise the RJDC is correct, ALPA has an obligation to fairly represent pilot groups at ASA and Comair and that means not negotiating against them to suit your MEC's predatory whims during a market correction.

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

TBKANE,

I feel your pain, as well as any other pilot that's ever been furloughed. This is only my second one. (hopefully my last)
I also rolled the dice when I left a B727 Captain slot at ATA for DAL.

I have been monitoring this forum for a long time now and I understand and emphasize with what the JR and SR pilots are experiencing. I spent 15+ years to get into that DAL cockpit, only to have it yanked away.

Regardless of the reason that it was taken away, we have got to pull together as pilots in a profession and quit griping about who has it better of worse.

I understand how a lot of pilots feel about our jobs because I have been there. I know what it's like to fly beat up single and ME cargo planes and sleep on the hanger floor; Freeze your behind off in the blowing snow while that last passenger straggles across the ramp with their "18 wheeler rollaboard" for me to squeeze into the belly of the commuter plane; Feel the excitement of being hired by my first jet airline; Finally making jet captain, and slowing digging out of years of debt.

Now that I am furloughed from DAL, would I fly a RJ, or any other plane for that matter? Heck yes! I started this profession because I love to fly. I am confident that eventually I will also make a comfortable living at it. I am sure lots of other pilots feel the way I do, so let's stop bashing each other and start pulling for each other.

From what I have read on this forum so far, General Lee appears to have the big picture, and I would have to agree with most of his posts.

Hang in there everybody.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: Re: What should Delta pilots get in return?

Give me a Delta Seniority number

Say it loud now, so we all can understand.

Give me a Delta Seniority number

Hasn't that been the objective all along? Even as you and the "rest" repeatedly denied it?

Say it again, then.

Give me a Delta Seniority number

How about just GIVE ME!!

 

[JECKEL]

All I have heard for the last two years from Delta folks is that we are seperate companies, we are separate companies, we are separtate companies!! You are Comair. You Are ASA. We are Delta. If you want to be one of us, turn in an application and a resume.
But now we are suddenly a part of the Delta family, fellow employees, and should share part of the burden.
I feel deeply for what is happening at Delta mainline. I am against concessions for anyone especially when management is lining their pockets.
However...like you have said in the past, my paycheck does not say Delta Airlines and until it does, I will not "share" any burden.
I am open to working together with mainline and doing what I/we can to help pilots, but don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.