Bill Mostellar
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Delta pay cuts not enough ?
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General Lee
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Jeckel,
That kinda sounds like the excuse Germans used about Hitler. If you don't like your MEC Chairman, do something about it. I don't have anything against the regular Comair line pilot---just against Lawson and his cronies. The problem is that Lawson would never ever want to get a flow through or staple because he wants to remain a Captain----and he could never see himself as a Detla MD-88 FO for example. That is not good for the rest of you. He is making decisions for you, and you are not raising a large enough stink. We did support you monitarily (along with others) and in other ways during your strike---which is a fact. Not helping us when our guys needed your help has caused this problem. It may not be because of you directly, but unfortunately you might be held accountable, indirectly, for Lawson's actions. I am not trying to divide your group or make you mad etc, I am really telling you the way we see it. We have up to 1310 pilots out on the street, with a bad job market. You are growing and hiring at a fast pace, and require our guys to resign their seniority numbers even though our Company owns your company, and ASA allows it. There are no more excuses. We just want our furloughs to have the opportunity to get back in the cockpit. That is why we are also trying to get some future 70 seaters in our name.
Bye Bye--General Lee
That kinda sounds like the excuse Germans used about Hitler. If you don't like your MEC Chairman, do something about it. I don't have anything against the regular Comair line pilot---just against Lawson and his cronies. The problem is that Lawson would never ever want to get a flow through or staple because he wants to remain a Captain----and he could never see himself as a Detla MD-88 FO for example. That is not good for the rest of you. He is making decisions for you, and you are not raising a large enough stink. We did support you monitarily (along with others) and in other ways during your strike---which is a fact. Not helping us when our guys needed your help has caused this problem. It may not be because of you directly, but unfortunately you might be held accountable, indirectly, for Lawson's actions. I am not trying to divide your group or make you mad etc, I am really telling you the way we see it. We have up to 1310 pilots out on the street, with a bad job market. You are growing and hiring at a fast pace, and require our guys to resign their seniority numbers even though our Company owns your company, and ASA allows it. There are no more excuses. We just want our furloughs to have the opportunity to get back in the cockpit. That is why we are also trying to get some future 70 seaters in our name.
Bye Bye--General Lee
geez, it never ends
All we asked for was preferential hiring, and the two biggest azzholes at both Comair and Delta couldn't work it out. Why don't you ask YOUR MEC why they couldn't get you hired at Comair. What would it cost you to peferentially hire Comair later. Your MEC put their squadron buddies before Comair pilots, just more scooter trash hun ?
On the line, I used to hear support for hiring Delta guys, now not so much. Most can't understand why you wouldn't offer preferential hiring if we were doing the same. What can you offer us in return besides more scope. And forget the strike, over 600 of the 1700 pilots were not even here. forget ASA, they're not hiring until next spring, if then.
Make a deal, offer it to the Comair pilots, and we'll tell Lawson what to do. We have jobs available now, and they only have to buy a single-breasted jacket.
All we asked for was preferential hiring, and the two biggest azzholes at both Comair and Delta couldn't work it out. Why don't you ask YOUR MEC why they couldn't get you hired at Comair. What would it cost you to peferentially hire Comair later. Your MEC put their squadron buddies before Comair pilots, just more scooter trash hun ?
On the line, I used to hear support for hiring Delta guys, now not so much. Most can't understand why you wouldn't offer preferential hiring if we were doing the same. What can you offer us in return besides more scope. And forget the strike, over 600 of the 1700 pilots were not even here. forget ASA, they're not hiring until next spring, if then.
Make a deal, offer it to the Comair pilots, and we'll tell Lawson what to do. We have jobs available now, and they only have to buy a single-breasted jacket.
CU@OSHKOSH
Active member
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- May 1, 2003
- Posts
- 29
flaps30,
So you are saying that the "600 out of 1700" don't count? I'll bet those 600 are still glad the strike was supported by DAL mainline.
I am not an expert on DAL MEC or CMR MEC, since I was flying online barely 2 years, but I do agree with you that the general membership for both parties is responsible for making sure that their leadership follows the wishes of the majority.
So you are saying that the "600 out of 1700" don't count? I'll bet those 600 are still glad the strike was supported by DAL mainline.
I am not an expert on DAL MEC or CMR MEC, since I was flying online barely 2 years, but I do agree with you that the general membership for both parties is responsible for making sure that their leadership follows the wishes of the majority.
Networ-King
Well-known member
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- Jan 11, 2003
- Posts
- 625
Surplus,
You sound like an intelligent and experienced individual from what I see in your posts. I just don't agree with you about changing the ways of this industry the way you see it. I too was at a regional and even with a flow through I realized that IT was never going to happen for me...... so I made some more moves and got better experience and I somehow achieved my goals. I fully support all my ALPA brothers/sister...... always have and always will. Well thats the way I used to think of it....... I paid, along with thousands of other ALPA pilots, alot of money to support you guys for 89 days, and now you won't even return the favor by hiring some furloughed Delta guys W/out letters of resignation. You know..... ASA has about 13 total Delta pilots over there....... 13 for god sake........ not all 1310 furloughed pilots want to go to ASA or Comair. Not because anything is wrong with these companies, but because they can't afford it or they have other job opportunities. So YOU don't want to go anywhere else....... thats great ...... enjoy the rest of your career, but if you, for one second think that your helping your pilot group with your mentality, then you sir are kidding yourself. 95% of your pilot group wants to move on to A major airline sooner or later. There are so many pilots at Delta that came from Comair and ASA, its not even funny. Preferential hiring? There were 4 guys from Comair in my interview class, out of 12 of us and 2 made it as far as I know. Thats 33% of the interview group................... Management has us just where they want us...... what a shame!!!
Jeckle,
I feel bad that the bridge in your mind is burned, but I simpathize with your view. Unfortunately as human beings we tend to generalize majority good, with the minority bad. Not all of us are out here to F*&K you guys as Surplus and his peer group suggest. Alot of us come from the regionals and know how SOME mainline pilots treat regional pilots by not even look at us in uniform in the terminal. WE'RE NOT ALL LIKE THAT, just like the fact that most Comair and ASA piltos don't have the RJDC mentality. And remember....... I don't care what anybody says, I have very little control over my MEC, just like you have very little control over your MEC. Yes... yes.... I know all about writing letters and talking to them and blah blah blah blah.......... we all know how it works in the closed sessions with NO VOTE!!!!!!!
ps. Read my signature!!!!!!
You sound like an intelligent and experienced individual from what I see in your posts. I just don't agree with you about changing the ways of this industry the way you see it. I too was at a regional and even with a flow through I realized that IT was never going to happen for me...... so I made some more moves and got better experience and I somehow achieved my goals. I fully support all my ALPA brothers/sister...... always have and always will. Well thats the way I used to think of it....... I paid, along with thousands of other ALPA pilots, alot of money to support you guys for 89 days, and now you won't even return the favor by hiring some furloughed Delta guys W/out letters of resignation. You know..... ASA has about 13 total Delta pilots over there....... 13 for god sake........ not all 1310 furloughed pilots want to go to ASA or Comair. Not because anything is wrong with these companies, but because they can't afford it or they have other job opportunities. So YOU don't want to go anywhere else....... thats great ...... enjoy the rest of your career, but if you, for one second think that your helping your pilot group with your mentality, then you sir are kidding yourself. 95% of your pilot group wants to move on to A major airline sooner or later. There are so many pilots at Delta that came from Comair and ASA, its not even funny. Preferential hiring? There were 4 guys from Comair in my interview class, out of 12 of us and 2 made it as far as I know. Thats 33% of the interview group................... Management has us just where they want us...... what a shame!!!
Jeckle,
I feel bad that the bridge in your mind is burned, but I simpathize with your view. Unfortunately as human beings we tend to generalize majority good, with the minority bad. Not all of us are out here to F*&K you guys as Surplus and his peer group suggest. Alot of us come from the regionals and know how SOME mainline pilots treat regional pilots by not even look at us in uniform in the terminal. WE'RE NOT ALL LIKE THAT, just like the fact that most Comair and ASA piltos don't have the RJDC mentality. And remember....... I don't care what anybody says, I have very little control over my MEC, just like you have very little control over your MEC. Yes... yes.... I know all about writing letters and talking to them and blah blah blah blah.......... we all know how it works in the closed sessions with NO VOTE!!!!!!!
ps. Read my signature!!!!!!
JECKEL
God's Own Drunk
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 402
FlyDeltasJets,
You are way too literal. Yes a bridge way by which one could travel from point A to point B. However I was using it as a link of communication and cooperation, which, as we all know, is a requirement to get things done/accomplished.
Delta pilots are expecting CMR/ASA to "share" the burden at the same time they are saying that Comair pilots will never be able to interview at Delta because our decisions our MEC has made.
You are asking us to hire furloughed Delta guys without them having to give up their seniority number. You are asking us to share the burden of concessions. If that is not an attempt at "bridging" by your side TO OUR SIDE, I don't know what it is.
You are way too literal. Yes a bridge way by which one could travel from point A to point B. However I was using it as a link of communication and cooperation, which, as we all know, is a requirement to get things done/accomplished.
Delta pilots are expecting CMR/ASA to "share" the burden at the same time they are saying that Comair pilots will never be able to interview at Delta because our decisions our MEC has made.
You are asking us to hire furloughed Delta guys without them having to give up their seniority number. You are asking us to share the burden of concessions. If that is not an attempt at "bridging" by your side TO OUR SIDE, I don't know what it is.
ASA taking a pay cut? NOT!
Hey guys,
Just chill a bit, would you all?
A group of pilots bitch and gossip more than a bunch of women at the beauty parlor! This is embarrasing.
Lets get back to the facts.
The reasons Delta and other airlines are in financial woes:
1) Loss of revenue caused for many reasons
2) Goverment mandated Security cost.
3) Poor business model/structure, slow as a ship to turn around
4) Labor cost(SMALL)
Facts:
Delta pilot labor cost is very small in comparison to overall losses for the previous year.
ASA and Comair pilot wages would not make even a dent
ASA and Comair pilots after about five years make what SHOULD be the MINIMUM a newhire airline pilot should make.
ASA and Comair pilots taking a paycut would not help the bottom line, it would hurt company relations and moral.
Delta mainline Super senior pilots should be encouraged to take early retirement packages, by their peers, this would help but not solve the problem.
Paycuts will not solve the problem!
Reduction in Taxes and security cost will solve the problem.(This one can't be said loud enough.)
New business models will solve the problem.
DCI growth is helping to solve the problem by keeping Delta alive in markets where widebodys and narrow cant fill the seats to be cost effective.
Having bad attitudes wont solve any problems.
Having solutions will.
Not eveyone in Peachtree city is rich, or a pilot.
Peachtree City is a great place to live!
I am a pilot. I do live in PTC. I am not rich.
But I will be rich, but not by flying airplanes.
Hey guys,
Just chill a bit, would you all?
A group of pilots bitch and gossip more than a bunch of women at the beauty parlor! This is embarrasing.
Lets get back to the facts.
The reasons Delta and other airlines are in financial woes:
1) Loss of revenue caused for many reasons
2) Goverment mandated Security cost.
3) Poor business model/structure, slow as a ship to turn around
4) Labor cost(SMALL)
Facts:
Delta pilot labor cost is very small in comparison to overall losses for the previous year.
ASA and Comair pilot wages would not make even a dent
ASA and Comair pilots after about five years make what SHOULD be the MINIMUM a newhire airline pilot should make.
ASA and Comair pilots taking a paycut would not help the bottom line, it would hurt company relations and moral.
Delta mainline Super senior pilots should be encouraged to take early retirement packages, by their peers, this would help but not solve the problem.
Paycuts will not solve the problem!
Reduction in Taxes and security cost will solve the problem.(This one can't be said loud enough.)
New business models will solve the problem.
DCI growth is helping to solve the problem by keeping Delta alive in markets where widebodys and narrow cant fill the seats to be cost effective.
Having bad attitudes wont solve any problems.
Having solutions will.
Not eveyone in Peachtree city is rich, or a pilot.
Peachtree City is a great place to live!
I am a pilot. I do live in PTC. I am not rich.
But I will be rich, but not by flying airplanes.
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
JECKEL said:
Jeckel,
Your (and flaps30's) understanding of the facts are incorrect. We have not asked you to shoulder any of the burden. We did not ask you to negotiate anything. We have not, nor will we, request that you take pay cuts. That is a myth, with no basis in fact, started by a few guys who are (understandably) upset at your group. It is simply not true, and repeating it only spreads misinformation. I would be almost as upset as you if any DCI carrier had to take a paycut, as that would give mgt even more incentive to continue the outsourcing of our jobs. It's a shame this rumor persists. It simply isn't true.
Delta management has stated many times that they are not hiring Delta pilots at cmr because "the cmr pilots would burn the house down." Fred Buttrell and Fred Reid made similar comments the other day in ATL during a roadshow, saying that they were concerned about "CRM issues". Do you find it curious that they have hired furloughees at ASA when the ASA mec gave their blessing?
That is all your mec was asked to do. Give a blessing. Stop objecting to the hiring of unemployed pilots at the bottom of the list. In return, we offered to pursue a form of preferential hiring. We did not offer 100% flow through, nor would Delta have ever accepted it. Nor would it be wise to spend negotiating capital pursuing it when we are entereing concession talks. We also did not ask for 100% preferential hiring at cmr. We asked for a simple thing: Stop working to prevent mgt from hiring our unemployed pilots at the bottom of your list. It would have cost them nothing. We did not ask them to "shoulder the burden." We asked them to write a letter saying that they do not oppose the hiring of Delta furloughees. It would have cost them the price of a stamp. If a price of a stamp is what you consider "shouldering the burden" then you must make a lot less than I thought!
The truth is, it would not have cost your mec a thing. Instead, they used our furloughees as hostages and asked our mec to
1) use our negotiating capital to obtain scope for them ( you know, scope. The thing that 25% of your pilot group are suing to destroy.)
2) allow them unlimited amounts of 70 and 90 seaters, which would lead to far more furloughs.
3) spend our negotiating capital pursuing onelist (actually, something that I would like to see, but realize is a pipedream. Mgt would never agree to it, and the cmr pilots seem to want us to make all the sacrifices to pursue it. Come to us with a prenup staple agreement, I'm sure the reception would be better.)
Keep in mind, your mec demanded these things in return for NOT OBJECTING to the hiring of a small handful of our unemployed pilots at the BOTTOM of the cmr list. How would that have harmed anyone? In return, we offered to pursue a preferential hiring scheme for the cmr pilots at Delta. Was it 100%? No. But it is still significant, as I believe that the ASA pilots will see when we start hiring again.
Your mec was petty, vindictive, jealous, and short-sighted, and it upsets me that so few cmr pilots seem to realize it. I applaud my mec chairman for not agreeing to lawson's laughable demands.
P.S.
This version of the meeting is not propaganda, it did not come from my mec. It came directly from a letter from jc lawson to the pilots of cmr. As they say in court, the facts of the case are not in dispute.
PPS
I used some license with the "bridge" analogy. I think it is appropriate.
FLB717
Pilot=proof of Gods humor
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Posts
- 627
WOW you guys are funny. I was at Comair I was a striking pilot, now I am at the evil LCC AirTran (according to most furloughed major pilots). As far as this whole CMR/DAL/ASA thing Understand I have no dog in this fight but I do have history and insight. Its realy simple DAL during the strike told us you want a flow through no problem. BUT we will hire (computation method of some form of voddoo) for the next 6-8 years on the current rate of new hires before we hire you (get those mil buddies in). BUT if a down turn existes we will flow down instantly. We of course CMR/ASA said pack sand. As far as DAL pilots helping supporting CMR on the strike yes they did, but only as individuals the DALPA unit is my memory if correct were the only ALPA group to give nothing. General Lee I see why you have the views you do. You are new and on the bubble. I hope you stay employed. by the way if you or any sould come here th AAI you will have to drop your senority number, standard industry practice Ive seen. As far as DAL support I was involved in comparing the prestrike and strike scheds at DAL. WoW it was great the DAL Brothers helped us by increaseing size and frequency to almost all CMR cities that was possible. We called them on it and they said basicly "SO". Gotta love the love. What Im trying to say is that DAL Pilots were not strong enough with thier Managment to force a better contract at CMR. through pay or bennies. Managment very well wippsawed DAL against CMR. If costs were raised to the point that growing CMR over DAL in bad times would have been unatractive I believe more DAL pilots would have jobs. Just like we said would happen over two years ago. Now CMR managment does not want DAL Pilots on property, that is not a quess it is a fact. I sat next to a DCI ATL MAnagment guy on a recent flight and I can tell you managment has no intension of doing anything but pitting one group against the other, his comment. So far all involved are doing a wonderful job of helping.
Last edited:
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
717,
I won't rehash arguments with most of your post, they have been done to death and we'll just have to disagree about some of the facts as you portray them.
However, in the interest of accuracy, Delta does not require the resignation of seniority numbers. I don't think that they have had many problems with people leaving them for other carriers.
I won't rehash arguments with most of your post, they have been done to death and we'll just have to disagree about some of the facts as you portray them.
However, in the interest of accuracy, Delta does not require the resignation of seniority numbers. I don't think that they have had many problems with people leaving them for other carriers.
FLB717
Pilot=proof of Gods humor
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Posts
- 627
FlyDeltasJets, Im sure your position as to what happened is different than mine. I can only say what I saw. Iwas in the strike center for weeks before and 10 hour days during the whole vacation. I am not person who just said "I herd from this guy who had friend that was there" I was part of the team and spent many days and hours going over crap that lasted in a meeting with DALPA for 10 minutes. I think you have new MEC from the one previos I hope they represent you and ALPA pilots on all three fences well. But DONT think that ASA or CMR will not do the same to you if you strike after all your group set the precident. Not trying to fight just givivng you all a heads up. I had much rather set back and watch and hope for the best, what ever that is.
FlyComAirJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Posts
- 323
FDJ,
You call OneList a "pipedream" and something that, "management would never agree to," but then contradict yourself in the very next sentence by saying, "Come to us with a prenup staple agreement, I'm sure the reception would be better."
Huh? What would the point of a prenup be if, as you claim, "management" would never EVER sign off on it?
How do you know this if it has never been tried? Has there never been a merging of pilot seniority lists after an acquisition in airline history?
In this era of unprecedented airline deals, I would think just about anything is negotiable ... if you want it, that is.
You call OneList a "pipedream" and something that, "management would never agree to," but then contradict yourself in the very next sentence by saying, "Come to us with a prenup staple agreement, I'm sure the reception would be better."
Huh? What would the point of a prenup be if, as you claim, "management" would never EVER sign off on it?
How do you know this if it has never been tried? Has there never been a merging of pilot seniority lists after an acquisition in airline history?
In this era of unprecedented airline deals, I would think just about anything is negotiable ... if you want it, that is.
BIGBROWNDC8
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 247
Im not going to choose side here, Ive got friends on both sides of this issue so Ill just try to stick to my point. I cant believe how we (pilots) are breaking each other down and working aginst eachother. Its caos... This is my OPINION on the issue...
It seems fairly obvious to me that if DAL Inc (as a whole company, not mainline or subsidiaries) is having financial hardships, that a reduction in all salaries (pilots, FA, Ground Crew, Mech, Secratarys, CEO, you name it) would be appropriate to save the most money. This fits into the argument that the Airline as a whole is in trouble and everyone needs to chip in. As I see this, DAL Inc is only asking its pilots to take a pay cut which goes to the core of what Management has been trying to do for years, Pay us less, pit us against each other, and guess what, their winning...
I hope everyone out there with wings on your shirt can see this, Regional, Major, Military, Civ, what ever. The issue is not who should or should not have to pitch in, but why is it that only the pilots money will help DAL get ahead??? Is DAL trying to save money and get out of financial ruin or is it trying to cut its Pilots salaries and let everyone else off the hook????? Yes, DAL Pilots make a lot of money, a lot of people at DAL make a lot of money. Is Pilot salaries the only reason the airline is in trouble??? I dont think so...
Just my 2 cents
It seems fairly obvious to me that if DAL Inc (as a whole company, not mainline or subsidiaries) is having financial hardships, that a reduction in all salaries (pilots, FA, Ground Crew, Mech, Secratarys, CEO, you name it) would be appropriate to save the most money. This fits into the argument that the Airline as a whole is in trouble and everyone needs to chip in. As I see this, DAL Inc is only asking its pilots to take a pay cut which goes to the core of what Management has been trying to do for years, Pay us less, pit us against each other, and guess what, their winning...
I hope everyone out there with wings on your shirt can see this, Regional, Major, Military, Civ, what ever. The issue is not who should or should not have to pitch in, but why is it that only the pilots money will help DAL get ahead??? Is DAL trying to save money and get out of financial ruin or is it trying to cut its Pilots salaries and let everyone else off the hook????? Yes, DAL Pilots make a lot of money, a lot of people at DAL make a lot of money. Is Pilot salaries the only reason the airline is in trouble??? I dont think so...
Just my 2 cents
FlyDeltasJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 664
FlyComAirJets said:
Fly,
You should notice that I said the "reception" would be better, not the results. I don't see a contradiction.
I think onelist is a good idea. I don't think it has a snowball's chance of working. I think it is doomed without the support of the Delta pilots. The Delta pilots will (rightfully) not support it without assurances that their seniority isn't at risk. The DCI pilots have not provided such assurances.
My conclusion is the onelist is highly unlikely. Without a staple, it moves from unlikely into the realm of the impossible.
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