Delta pay cuts not enough ?

[46Driver]

If you are talking onelist with Delta mainline, I think it would be too expensive because as soon as the pilots get the same benefits, then the flight attendants would want them, then the mechanics, then the gate agents.....

If you are talking "Brand Scope", that would have been a good idea with the introduction of the RJ but ALPA did not recognize how the RJ would be used. Now, management and stockholders are not going to let go of the whipsaw. I would venture to guess that SkyWest and Chautaqua have the same kind of poison pill arrangements with Delta as ACA (Delta has to buy all of our Dorniers if they drop us as a feeder) so management has a double incentive to maintain the status quo.

How all of this is going to shake out, I don't know - but I'm not optimistic, I just enrolled in graduate school.....

 

[embdrvr]

No one gets hired at Delta without first going through a review board composed of current and retired Delta line pilots. DALPA will have some control over how many CMR pilots get hired in the future.

You are 100% correct.
However does G.L. speak for the DALPA leadership?
Is G.L. on the review board?
Keep in mind that this issue will not be addressed for many years to come. If DAL survives which I think it will I can't see them doing much hiring off the street for about 5 more years.

I think before G.L. and others talk about shared sacrifice within the DAL family of companies they better see to it that all mainline employees take a hit before looking towards the ASA and CMR pilot group.

 

[Heavy Set]

Look, I think people read too deep into things. I have no idea who General Lee is - it sounds like he is a 767 pilot based in Atlanta, but I can confirm that many of the Delta pilots I talk to (I play golf with 3 on a weekly basis for starters) reiterate the General's sentiments concerning frustration with Comair and its lack of preferential hiring for furloughed pilots. They feel betrayed after they supported Comair in their strike - that's how they feel - DON'T SHOOT ME FOR REPORTING IT. That is what I hear, and the feelings sound pervasive - not isolated. What do you think the Delta pilots talk about up at cruise altitude? There seems to be appreciation for how ASA picked up a few Delta furloughees - I have heard those statements myself.

In any case, who knows what will happen in the future... In this case, it boils down to two issues: Delta pilots do not want to be singled out for wage concessions IF they are necessary, and they want their furloughees to be reinstated as soon as possible. That's it - nothing else. End of story. I hope we can avoid going around and around and around in circles on these issues.... It's simple - work together as a team to fix Delta's collective problems and get the furloughees back on the line ASAP!

Cheers

 

[surplus1]

Heavy Set,

Thanks for the reply and yes, free speech for everyone. That includes the General, Heavy Set and even Surplus1.

My impression is that the General and other Delta pilots don't want to necessarily "control" the ASA/Comair careers - they just want to PROTECT their own careers and ensure that the furloughees are back flying as soon as possible. That's all.

OK, I'll rephrase it. The Delta pilots just want to protect their own careers. The method they have chosen is by attempting to control the careers of ASA/Comair pilots, who wish to control their own careers. I'm sorry but I can't support their method.

As far as the furloughees go I'm all for getting them back as soon as possible.

Yes, General Lee can be overly sarcastic and times, but he frequently focuses on the furloughee situation - that is not a bad thing. Comair and ASA continue to grow and add to their route structure (e.g, Salt Lake and Dallas) while Delta furloughs more mainline pilots - shouldn't the General and others be concerned about the situation? Do they have a right to express their opinions on an open forum? Yes.

General Lee's sarcasm does not bother me. His frequent stretching of the truth, to the breaking point, does. His focus on the plight of the furloughed and their prompt return is admirable and is not a bad thing. The General and his fellow pilots should be concerned about the furloughs, they should not imply that we are the cause or that we are preventing their return. That is false and yes, they are making that assertion.

The continued growth of Comair and ASA have nothing to do with the furlough of Delta pilots. They are not being furloughed because we are growing. Many more would be furloughed if we did not exist and the Company (Delta) would be much worse off if we were not doing what Delta bought us to do. It would not be better for General Lee's associates if we were not growing. It would be far worse. That is not just my opinion, it is substantiated by the facts.

Additionally, General Lee claims, over and over again, that Delta pilots are not being hired at Comair because Comair pilots are preventing that from happening. That is false. Delta pilots are not being hired at Comair because they do not wish to resign their Delta seniority and Comair requires its new pilots to do so.

General Lee is angry because the Comair MEC did not agree to attempt to force Comair management to change its hiring policy on behalf of Delta pilots. It is true that Comair MEC would not do that. In my opinion, the Comair MEC was correct. Whether or not you care, I'll tell you and him again, just like he tells me his version.

The Delta MEC did not ask the Comair MEC for its assistance. What it actually did was orchestrate a political ploy, proffer an "offer" on which it could not deliver, and soured the pot with threats, made before the fact, of what it would do if we did not comply with its demands. If they wanted us to say no (I believe they did), they could not have done a better job of ensuring it. The threats were rejected and properly so.

General Lee and his supporters choose conveniently to focus on the decision of the Comair MEC, which he and they do not like. He is a willing participant in the Delta MEC's propaganda campaign against Comair pilots, and regurgitates the threats on an almost daily basis. He chooses also to ignore the actions of his own MEC which have been decidely unfavorable to Comair pilots, not once but for years. He's perfectly happy with that because it suits him and his peers. Well, it does not suit me and my peers and I am perfectly unhappy with those actions by the DMEC. The General has no fear of stating how he feels and no doubt you've noticed, neither do I.

What exactly do you expect, Heavy Set? It sounds like you believe that we should remain silent and comply with whatever the Delta MEC wants, not matter how adversely it may affect us while tacitly accepting whatever they chose to say. I am not willing to do that.

You ask me " Do they have a right to express their opinions on an open forum?" Then you answer yourself by saying "Yes." I agree with you. Now I ask you the same question. Do we have a right to express our opinions in an open forum? I give you the same answer: YES. Whether or not my opinions agree with those of General Lee, the answer remains the same. We each have the right to express our opinions and that is what we are doing.

What if your own situation mirrored General Lee's situation. Let's say that Chit-Talk and Mesa started to encroach on your system because of their much lower operating cost structures - and Comair/ASA pilots were furloughed with no clear timetable for their return... How would you feel? How did you feel when Chit-Talk took over Orlando? I guess you weren't upset in the slightest... I suppose there is zero ill-will between the two pilot groups. If you were furloughed, you would likely be happy that someone like the General is defending you and attempting to communicate the problem to other pilots.

You ask some interesting questions but the scenarios you pose are substantially different, which you do not appear to recognize. Perhaps that is because you are unfamiliar, but I rather suspect it is because you are of the same basic mindset as the typical Delta pilot. In my view, that mindset is flawed.

Chitauqua is already encroaching on our system. So are two other airlines, ACA and SKYW. CHQ operates the same class of equipment that we do. So do the other two. There is no ill-will between the CMR pilot group and those 3 groups. At present, we are not being furloughed as a result. If we were being furloughed, I believe there would still be no ill-will on the part of Comair pilots. Does that mean we are "happy" about the encroachment or we "like it"? No, it does not. We are not happy that CHQ "tookover" MCO and we are not happy that ACA is based in CVG. We wish Delta had also decided to buy SKYW (before it affiliated with UAL). However, we are very much aware that the pilots of those airlines are NOT responsible for what Delta (the Company) is doing to us. Therefore, there is NO reason to harbor ill-will against them. Can you understand that?

Those 3 airlines, CHQ, ACA and SKYW are not subcontractors of Comair or ASA. They are subcontractors of Delta. Only a few years ago, CMR and ASA were also subcontractors. The Comair pilots' CBA (I don't know about ASA) does not permit subcontracting and Comair is not doing any subcontracting. Delta is doing the subcontracting. If the Delta pilots are concerned, then why are they picking on CMR and ASA who are NOT subcontracting? Why didn't they act to prevent subcontracting in the past? Why aren't they attempting to prevent it now?

Why do they object to the subsidiaries of CMR & ASA but do not object to the subsidiary "Song"? Simple isn't it? They are doing the flying at song and they are not doing the flying at CMR/ASA. So it's not really subsidiaries that they are against. What they want is our flying. If they could get that flying, do you think they are at all worried about what would happen to us? The answer is NO. Why then are we expected to worry about them?

Comair and ASA are not encroaching on the Delta system. We are each an integral part of that system. We know that, the Company knows that and the industry knows that. The Delta pilots are the only one's that don't seem to be in the know. The Company isn't about to enlighten them. Why should it? They have given the Company a lever that it did not previously have. Management would have been fools not to take it.

The Delta pilots may not like having us as subsidiaries of Delta, but again, they did nothing to prevent it. In fact they did everything to create it and to keep it so. If the Delta pilots did not want 3 airlines under the same roof at Delta, then they should not have specifically excluded us from the Merger clause of their PWA. WE did not do that, THEY did. When the Company bought our airlines, we both asked the union to implement its merger policy. We understood that the union could not force Delta to merge the corporations. We also understand that the Delta pilots intentionally and deliberately prevented the union from making any attempt to do so. Why? According to them, three reasons 1) they did not wish to waste their negotiating capital, 2) they did not consider us to be suitable for integration with them and, 3) they did not wish to "risk" compliance with the union's merger policy. As the old fashioned saying goes, "you made your bed now lie in it."

Remember, if you don't like the message, you don't have to get on this forum - you can stick to the Regionals forum. The General might be sarcastic, but he is often more logical and vehement than most people on these boards.... Most of his messages revolve around the furloughees - so that people don't forget about them...

My friend, that's a two-way street. If you or anyone else doesn't like my messages, you don't have to read them either. I agree that the General is vehement but when it comes to these issues the logic part escapes me.

Surplus 1, if I were you, I would be less concerned about what the Delta pilots are doing and more concerned about the Chit-Talk pilots - watch your back. Now YOU can relate to how the Delta pilots feel. Cheers

Heavy Set, I learned a long time ago to watch my six very carefully. What's new to me is the idea that my wing-men are even more likely to lob a missile up my rear. Now I have to watch them both. Does that help YOU relate to how Comair pilots feel? It's one thing to be burned by the "enemy" but this Blue-on-Blue sucks.

Regards,

 

[P3-Adub]

General Lee & other DAL pilots

Hang on to what you guys can ! When this mess of an economy reverses itself and revenues start to return then everyone will be looking at you guys and trying to get the same.

I get sick and tired of all of the comparisons in wages and profitability right now because this mess is only temporary. Only a few years ago everyone was looking at DAL and saying they wanted a piece of that pie in one form or another. Didn't quite work out at UAL as we had hoped, might have had the perfect storm not hit this industry. I will admit that the LCCs have changed the dynamics some. What seems to be missed is the fact that pay cuts ARE taking place all over the industry as we speak. General mentioned friends being "bumped" out of better paying equipment, furloughs, LCCs, paycuts, benefits slashed, and what seems most missed on these boards is that the REGIONALS, while enjoying boom times, are growing out of mainline jobs with thier jets and the success is because of the lower salaries !!!! That is it in a nutshell. Many of these folks would be at the larger carriers already in thier careers if it were not for the handing over of routes to a lower cost option. The feeders have some pretty nice contracts that if changed to reflect the current climate would not be so profitable and then there would be changes made. Do you guys really get paid by Delta for an RJ leg even if there are no passengers ??? Where is the fairness in that ? Pay is coming down to compete in today's business environment but will go back up again when things improve, will happen, I will bet on it.

I do not wish anyone pay cuts or furloughs. We may be seeing the corner ahead for some recovery in our economy, this is the only answer. Cutting pilots salaries is management's biggest wet dream and not really the long term answer to the problem. Our industry is linked too closely with the economy and cannot adapt quickly enough. I suppose the future cycles will be met with more aggressive furloughs, paycuts, and the shifting of flying to lower cost options. Let us all hope that "airline management 101" will have learned some lessons from all of this. At UAL we thought that 4 Billion in reserves was a good buffer, guess not. Definitely a different animal when and if we emerge.

Great arguments and a lot of good points. Just don't sell yourselves short. To bash a guy making good coin that has made a career out of DAL, AMR, UAL or you fill in the blank, because he is trying to hang onto what he has achieved is kind of ignoring way too many factors that have effected the current health of this industry. Cycles, this just happens to be one of the biggest ! We all love flying but we all love the potential of a great career with great earnings, if not there would be no fence to look over !!!!

Good luck to all of you !!!

 

[Networ-King]

Hey Surplus,

You sound real bitter and Im sorry things could not be better between our pilot groups. When you sign the aircraft logbook, do you sign in Captain RJDC?

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

O.K. surplus1,

Get real. I do not think for a second that Comair or any other DAL subsideraries have "taken" the DAL mainline flying. DAL management has given or "re-allocated" the flying. Regardless of the reason, I and over a thousand other DAL pilots have taken 100% pay cuts.

While you were on strike at Comair, I checked every one of my flights to make sure that we were not flying any of "YOUR" routes. Because, believe it or not, we actually cared about the other pilots under the DAL umbrella.(I guess you have forgotten about that already).

My question is how could hiring experienced furloughed pilots, as opposed to newbees, possibly hurt "your" flying. I would think that it could only strengthen the whole DAL operation.

 

[Freight Dog]

CU@OSHKOSH, if I may summarize what you're about to see from surplus...


9/11 is the result of evil Delta MEC and ALPA National's actions. Bad economy is also the result of those two entities. ALPA national and Delta MEC have held down our people at Comair/ASA long enough, and with our people now are being reborn to hell with our Delta mainline oppressors. We will no longer be slaves to our owners at Delta. No way cuz now, WE HAVE A DREAM! We don't want B777's, we only want what's rightfully ours - Delta seniority number. But our slaveowners are refusing to give us what we want, so we'll sue them and kick them now while they're down. Oh, and you can forget about us chipping in in any way - hiring of their furloughees or taking pay cuts to save Delta. Those people are our oppressors, so why should we save them???

We are right! We are fair! We want FAIRNESS BACK!


I think I about summed it up, but I didn't take up half the message board to get it all out.

 

[CU@OSHKOSH]

Freight Dog,

Right On Brother!

I like your style.

 

[wil]

It is simple- No new hires at ASA/Comair until our furloughed brothers/sisters are offered employment with seniority retention for pay and benefits and no contract flying through Skywest, ACA, Chitauqua, et cetera. There would be plenty of flying to go around if this happened. We must keep all Delta flying in house- end of story. As the economy picks up, Delta pilots can return to mainline as their seniority allows and everybody is happy . Fly safe-

 

[46Driver]

Wil,
I doubt if the pilots at ACA, SkyWest, and Chitauqua are too happy about your plan to make us unemployed....

 

[Clownpilot]

death to the thread

Surplus has arrived.

And that is death to reason and cohesive thought.

Don't engage the bitter old psycho.

You've been warned. He's unbalanced.

 

[surplus1]

One shot; Four birds

Originally posted by Networ-King

Hey Surplus,

You sound real bitter and Im sorry things could not be better between our pilot groups. When you sign the aircraft logbook, do you sign in Captain RJDC?

No reason to be bitter N-K and I truly am not, but no reason to take any crap either. I just never learned to ride in the back of the bus or give up my seat to my betters, so I just call a spade a spade. I too am sorry that things are not better between our pilot groups and would like to see them improve. It is possible, but only if you realize that it will take both of us to make that happen.

Nope, I don't sign the log as you suggest, but I also don't sign it Captain Wannabe. Maybe that's why I'm not so "popular" with your group. I've always been satisfied with who and what I am and I do not "wannabe". I also won't sell my soul for a potential number on anyone's list and most of you can't seem to handle my saying that.

Originally posted by CU@OSHKOSH

Regardless of the reason, I and over a thousand other DAL pilots have taken 100% pay cuts.

The furloughs are regrettable and I wish it were not so. The "reason" only becomes important if you attempt to affix the blame on my pilot group. We are not the cause and therefore cannot accept the responsibility or the blame. If we focused less on the speculative reasons and more on the potential remedy, we might make more progress.

My question is how could hiring experienced furloughed pilots, as opposed to newbees, possibly hurt "your" flying. I would think that it could only strengthen the whole DAL operation.

The record shows clearly that my Company is hiring a great many experienced furloughed pilots from a wide variety of airlines and it has not hurt our flying in any way. Those hired since the big downturn have, in the majority, not been "newbees" (your term) at all. If Delta furloughees don't happen to be among them, that is only because Delta furloughees have chosen, of their own volition, not to comply with one of the Company's requirements or have not applied for the job. That is your right and it is not the fault of Comair pilots.

The truth is that before your MEC made its political ploys, made its threats and launched its propaganda campaign, I personally was not only willing to support, but to actively promote the hiring of furloughed Delta pilots in preference to all others, without resignation of seniority, without interviews and with no pre-conditions. I was even willing to have you enter our program with full credit for your Delta longevity for the purpose of determining your pay rate. Simply ask for the job and it is yours automatically, in the order of your Delta seniority. No promises required of you re preferential interviews, hiring or anything else for Comair pilots in the future. I say again, no pre-conditions and no quid pro quo. I would have vigorously and actively lobbied my MEC to adopt that position.

I felt that way in spite of opinions to the contrary in my peer group and notwithstanding all that your MEC has done in the past, because I did not believe that a majority of the Delta rank and file was responsible for the behavior of the Delta MEC. I have made the equivalent statement before in several other threads in more than one forum. The only response I ever got from any of you was silence or something similar to the remarks of your "clown"-pilot. I guess you have a perceived "right" to jobs at Comair. I wanted to help but do not share the concept of a perceived right to anything.

In view of what the Delta MEC has done, my position has changed. Today, I would not lift a finger pro or con. The actions of your MEC in this matter caused me to change my mind. The rhetoric of your contemporaries in support of your/their MEC merely confirms my current feelings in the matter. I was wrong in thinking that your group was not responsible for the actions of your leaders. You've made it crystal clear that you were and you are. Obviously, my opinions do not change what my MEC may do and are not always synonymous with the feelings of my group. Nevertheless it is safe to say that I am not alone within my pilot group. I wasn't before and I am not now. I'm sorry that I now feel this way and wish that I did not. However, no one in your MEC and no one in your pilot group has yet to do or say anything that would cause me to change my mind again. You all just dig the gulf wider and the hole deeper day by day. Nevertheless, as my MEC has said, the door remains open.

Originally posted by Freight Dog

… we only want what's rightfully ours - Delta seniority number

First, If you knew me personally or anything about me, you would also know how meaningless a Delta seniority number is and has always been to me. Secondly, if you had true understanding of the dispute you would also know that none of us at Comair believe that anything that belongs to the Delta pilots is "rightfully ours"; that includes their seniority list. What you seem to miss completely is that nothing that belongs to the Comair pilots is "rightfully theirs" either, including our seniority list. Whenever "they" get that detail figured out, we can go from there.

I think I about summed it up, but I didn't take up half the message board to get it all out.

Forgive me for challenging your limited span of attention. As for the rest of your post, the following about sums it up: "Anger and pride are very powerful substitutes for thought." -- David Davis

Originally posted by Clownpilot

Surplus has arrived. And that is death to reason and cohesive thought. Don't engage the bitter old psycho.
You've been warned. He's unbalanced.

"Men who feel strong in the justice of their cause, or confident in their powers, do not waste breath in childish boasts of their own superiority and querulous depreciation of their antagonists."
--James Russell Lowell, "The Pickens-and-Stealin's Rebellion," The Atlantic, June 1861

 

[trainerjet]

Re: One shot; Four birds

I just call a spade a spade.

Yep, over and over again. And apparently without any problem whatsoever. Except when you look in the mirror.

 

[JECKEL]

The one question I have is; why does every Delta mainline pilot on this forum think that the Comair pilots pilots voted, 100%, to not hire furloughed Delta pilots?
First of all, there was NO VOTE!!!!!!!!!!
Our MEC unilaterally, driven by ther own agenda, turned it down in what THEY think was in the best interest of the pilot group.
Communication between the Comair MEC and it's members is at best extremely limited. We are finally getting a VARs message here and there and believe it or not, a honest to goodness LEC meeting this week.
The majority of pilots I fly with have absolutely no objection to helping out the furlouhged Delta guys.
So to say COMAIR has refused this and refused that is incorrect. Get the information right.
Our MEC refused. But you attack every single COMAIR pilot on this board. You make enemies out of pilots who not only wish you no harm but who might have helped you had the hiring of Delta pilots gone to a vote.
You have burned my bridge!!

 

[Bill Mostellar]

The one question I have is; why does every Delta mainline pilot on this forum think that the Comair pilots pilots voted, 100%, to not hire furloughed Delta pilots?
First of all, there was NO VOTE!!!!!!!!!!
Our MEC unilaterally, driven by ther own agenda, turned it down in what THEY think was in the best interest of the pilot group.

Maybe you need to vote in an MEC that represents you.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Jeckyl,

If your mec is not representing the wishes of their pilots, those pilots should do something about it. Since nothing has been done, do you blame others for assuming that cmr pilots agree with their mec's decision?

For the record, that bridge used to be a two-way street. Very few (if any) desired to travel to your side, while plenty crossed over to ours. I personally don't mourn the fact that is has burned, because I never intended to travel it. However, I would imagine that many from your side of the chasm will miss it dearly.

The good thing is, it can be repaired. Unfortunately, we can't do it from our side, your leaders won't allow it.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

The record shows clearly that my Company is hiring a great many experienced furloughed pilots from a wide variety of airlines and it has not hurt our flying in any way. Those hired since the big downturn have, in the majority, not been "newbees" (your term) at all. If Delta furloughees don't happen to be among them, that is only because Delta furloughees have chosen, of their own volition, not to comply with one of the Company's requirements or have not applied for the job. That is your right and it is not the fault of Comair pilots.

If you hire a furloughed pilot and make him resign his seniority number at his previous carrier, he is no longer a furloughee. He is just another applicant.

You can't make the statement that you're being magnanimus about hiring other furloughees while requiring Delta pilots to resign their seniority number. Apples and Oranges.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

The continued growth of Comair and ASA have nothing to do with the furlough of Delta pilots. They are not being furloughed because we are growing. Many more would be furloughed if we did not exist and the Company (Delta) would be much worse off if we were not doing what Delta bought us to do. It would not be better for General Lee's associates if we were not growing. It would be far worse. That is not just my opinion, it is substantiated by the facts.

Please show me those facts, not just your opinion.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Additionally, General Lee claims, over and over again, that Delta pilots are not being hired at Comair because Comair pilots are preventing that from happening. That is false. Delta pilots are not being hired at Comair because they do not wish to resign their Delta seniority and Comair requires its new pilots to do so.

And from another of your posts:

The record shows clearly that my Company is hiring a great many experienced furloughed pilots from a wide variety of airlines and it has not hurt our flying in any way.

If someone is forced to resign their seniority number, they are no longer a furloughee.

Apples and Oranges.