Delta might offer CRJ70's to Mainline

[General Lee]

I heard Friday in the ATL chief pilot's office that Delta may want some relief on scope and might make an offer to Dalpa to allow the furloughed pilots the ability to fly 30 or 40 NEW CRJ-70's for mainline---(none of which would be the 57 on order for DCI) maybe with a different operating certificate---like Song. (Call it "Dance"----so you have Song and Dance) Anyways, I think that would be great for the furloughs, and it would get them back quicker. The guy I talked to there said that they would have to negotiate a pay rate---which would be competitive with Comair's. Well, atleast we could get the furloughs back faster, and with the surge in retirements at Mainline, hopefully the return will be quick.
I think that 70 seat CRJ is pretty slick.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[checkessential]

Suddenly, flying a CRJ doesn't look so bad. Funny how folks change their opinion when it suits them best...

 

[General Lee]

I never said flying a CRJ was bad, I happen to like them and have jumped on them quite a bit to Florida. The key point here is that our furloughed pilots MIGHT have a chance to fly again--sooner than later---and not have to beg Comair for a job they won't give them. If this does happen, it will help Delta alittle, and help our furloughed pilots. Sounds good to me.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

Suddenly, flying a CRJ doesn't look so bad. Funny how folks change their opinion when it suits them best...

Where do you guys come up with this crap? Most of us have flown these types of airplanes before. Remember, you guys are not exclusive to having "commuter" experience. Some of us actually flew for a commuter and then moved on.

GFYS

 

[miller22]

Or better yet,
How about Delta MEC relaxes the 57 70-seater limit in turn for furloughed Delta pilots retaining their seniority number while flying them? The aircraft would be much more profitable and the end result is the same... or would that cause an ego problem?
The RJ's are profitable greatly because they don't have to pay the rediculous main-line rates for the pilots. If DAL could pay the same rate as Comair/ASA pays, then your theory might be a possibility, however I don't see that happening. Don't forget the astronomical cost of training, spare-parts inventory, and legal costs, not to mention the costs if they would spin-off a whole new airline. But hey, Delta has already been successful at driving a wedge between union groups, why not go after this bait too?
Although, with the latest legal ruling, if Delta is required to recall pilots without having anything for them to fly, taking deep losses on 70-seaters may be less devastating than taking deeper losses paying pilots to do nothing. Of course DALPA cares little about the financial welfare of the airline, or else they'd realize that even-though RPK's are nearing 9-11 numbers, the prices pax are paying for the tickets are half what they were. Hiring back 1063 furloughed pilots instantly increases annual payroll by $100 million, and that number doesn't take into account training and other misc. costs. The airline already hemorraged $1.3 billion last year, and ALPA seems determined to increase that number for 2003. This is horrible news for Delta and could be the next step to follow United into the inevitable. Could this be why unions always fail at running airlines?

 

[NYRANGERS]

I give up! I can't keep responding to the same ridiculous and uninformed posts over and over... As a counter to Miller's nonsense, please read all the other posts relating to pilots pay, recall, contracts and such...

Heck, now I know how those JetBlue guys must feel every time someone tries to tell them they are not paying for their A320s.

Miller, do some research and come back later.

 

[Palerider957]

GFYS.......

 

[NYRANGERS]

GFYS.......

Glad you like it

 

[Palerider957]

....we're not all as dumb as we look....

 

[rjcap]

Some of us actually flew for a commuter and then moved on.

Let me be the first to welcome you back to the "commuters."

Anything that helps to increase my 70 seat pay rate will be appreciated ! I'm sure DALPA would never accept the current 70 seat pay rates so the debate would only help ASA during its contract negotiations.

Assuming this actually comes to fruition then Leo would have accomplished the following:

1. Placing mainine pilots into RJ's at something slightly better then regional pay.

2. A common type flown by mainline and DCI.

3. Increasing the number of 70 seaters in the Delta system also creating a net increase in allowable DCI block hours.

4. Can you guess the last one ??????

 

[ExAF]

Whether or not you fly RJs has never been the issue. Mainline pilots have never had a problem with flying RJs at mainline, they just won't do it for 17K a year. Put a reasonable rate on the aircraft (probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a 727FE rate or something less than the lowest current or renegotiated FO rate) and guys will fall all over themselves to fly the RJ. I for one have always thought flying an RJ would be fun and would be more than happy to fly one at a mainline airline at a somewhat mainline rate. Ego has nothing to do with it...its just business.

 

[Mayday911]

This would be a nice reason for a petition to the NMB to declare DAL and DCI a "single transportation system" aka One Carrier.

Good Luck to ALL,

Mayday

 

[sleepy]

General,

I hope they do something to get your guys back. I have heard that DAL is getting an additional 50 of the 70 seaters (really converting 50 seat orders to 70 seat orders) to be split between ASA and Comair. If true DAL would certainly need to make a deal with DALPA to exceed the current limits on these aircraft.

I hope they do add some to mainline, that would certainly bolster our operational integration argument. I would think tohat management and ALPA would have to work together to start a new WO for furloughed mainline pilots to prevent this from happening.

My question is, what do they do with this new WO after all of the originally furloughed mainline pilots return to mainline? Do they now make all DAL newhires start in the 70 seat RJ. That would certainly make DAL less attractive to the high quality military pilots that they covet. I have heard many arguments against One List from mainline pilots (over on the ALPA board), "The best military guys will not come to DAL if they have to fly an RJ."

Then there is the pay and benefits problem for DAL. They will certainly be helping the ASA and Comair pilots if pay and benefits are better at a new WO (or mainline) for the same aircraft we fly. I doubt DAL would want this to happen. If the pay is the same as ASA and Comair, why would a furloughed mainline pilot want to work there. I have heard many times on the ALPA boards, "Thanks for offering to hire our furloughed pilots (ASA only BTW), but our guys are sharp and have already found better paying jobs elsewhere (the Home Depot is mentioned a lot)."

Finally, 70 seat RJ production rates are allowing DAL to take about 4 per month for ASA and Comair. It will take a while for mainline to aquire the aircraft (unless they just take them away from ASA or Comair). It will take about a year for them to start a new WO from scratch. By then, won't quite a few of the furloughed mainline pilots already be back at mainline (I hear that quite a few guys are retiring now to get their lump sum payment before any possible bankruptcy + the economy should be turning around if the Gulf War part II is successful)?

I doubt that you will see 70 seat aircraft at mainline. It is more likely that they will add a 100 seat aircraft to mainline (I hear the A-318 will be the choice). This would avoid a lot of the problems I noted above. The 90/100 seat RJ does not carry enough cargo to make it profitable at mainline pay rates. The ERJ-190; I doubt DAL will ever have another Embrare product of the property again.

Let the flames blow!

 

[super ed]

You guys don't get it. 70 seats at Delta 50 seats at Comair and ASA. No operational integration. No more 70's at Comair and ASA.
The change in scope wpuld be to change allowable types to 50 seats or less.

Super

 

[sleepy]

Whether or not you fly RJs has never been the issue. Mainline pilots have never had a problem with flying RJs at mainline, they just won't do it for 17K a year. Put a reasonable rate on the aircraft (probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a 727FE rate or something less than the lowest current or renegotiated FO rate) and guys will fall all over themselves to fly the RJ. I for one have always thought flying an RJ would be fun and would be more than happy to fly one at a mainline airline at a somewhat mainline rate. Ego has nothing to do with it...its just business.

Yea, it is a fun aircraft to fly. But, we are continually to by management that the RJ just would not be profitable at mainline pay rates. My question is, why would DAL pay mainline pay for RJ flying when ASA, Comair, ACA, Skywest, and Chit will all do the same job ofr less? Just to get more RJ's? They can already have up to 49% of DAL flying in RJ's, do you think they want even more than this?

 

[ExAF]

General,

My question is, what do they do with this new WO after all of the originally furloughed mainline pilots return to mainline? Do they now make all DAL newhires start in the 70 seat RJ. That would certainly make DAL less attractive to the high quality military pilots that they covet. I have heard many arguments against One List from mainline pilots (over on the ALPA board), "The best military guys will not come to DAL if they have to fly an RJ."

You obviously read my earlier post but didn't believe that us "coveted military guys" have no problem with starting in the RJ. Flyin is flyin. I also didn't say DAL would want to do this...I don't think they will. My point was that flying an RJ or not has nothing to do with pilot ego, just business. Cheers.....

 

[FR8mastr]

I keep seeing the posts change direction depending on the who is flying the AC. Bottom line. ALL FLYING MUST BE DONE BY THE SAME COMPANIES PILOTS. The WOed pilots (I am one) do not get date of hire on the ML list, we get stapled to the bottom behind all current ML pilots. All new hire pilots at the airline go behind us on the now ONE LIST. Management gets appropriate pay rates for the size of AC. Check your freakin ego's look at the big picture and work towards what is the only way to stop the whipsaw and the outsourcing!

 

[General Lee]

The current scope limit for DCI carriers is 57 70 seat RJ's. Delta cannot just split up 50 seat orders and give more than 57 of them to DCI. The only way to get more of them is to deal with Dalpa. Dalpa has a problem on its hands with the 1060 furloughs. The only real answer to get the furloughs back quicker is to get them on some type of new equipment--and Delta seems to want more 70 seaters. The 737-200's will still be around, especially since their leases don't expire for a couple more years. Then the newer 100 seaters (apparently LEO and the boys went up to Chicago---Boeing's new headquarters---and pulled a fast one on them---said they were only staying there for an hour because they had to get back to ATL so they could "catch a flight to Europe"---(Airbus)---which really freaked them out---so my guess is that they will get a good deal on the 106 seat 737-600, which will have the same type rating as the 737-800 etc.) will be arriving in 2006 or so. As far as new hires not wanting to get on the CRJ70, well--they obviously haven't seen one. I think it is a lot nicer than a DC-9. Dalpa has wanted to operate them from day 1, but that hasn't happened. I am sure they could exist side by side with DCI, especially if they are yet again another separate certificate---like Song. There probably wouldn't be that many under that certificate---I am guessing 40 or so---but it would give Delta more flexibility once again. It probably would help ASA with better pay rates, but not by much---this still has to be economical for Delta or they wouldn't do it. And as for one list---sure, as long as it is a staple----no DOH. I hope this is a way to get the furloughs back a little faster, and I like those heavy RJ's.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[rjcap]

I like those heavy RJ's.

Thats a good one Gen Lee !!!!

 

[CatYaaak]

The key point here is that our furloughed pilots MIGHT have a chance to fly again--sooner than later---and not have to beg Comair for a job they won't give them. If this does happen, it will help Delta alittle, and help our furloughed pilots. Sounds good to me.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I think I missed something here...is "applying" for a job now synonymous with "begging"? And it must have been when I was living on Mars when Comair pilots could just mosey on in to Delta HQ, flash their DCI ID badges, and grab a seat in a new-hire class.

But really, the whole thing is just a jobs program to appease the DALPA rank and file, because you aren't going to make money with 70-seaters crewing and handling them at mainline rates. Perhaps it would work if you operated in a vacumn where Competition didn't exist, or better yet, in an Airline Pilot Shangri-La where passengers willingly pay higher prices because they don't want to see you fall behind on your boat payments.

And mainline guys wanting to fly Barbie Jets? Um..ok. That must have been the best-kept mainline secret during my 4 years at regionals, because I never heard that. The sudden change of heart is more accurately described as Archie taking a sudden interest in Betty because Veroinca went off and joined a nunnery.