Delta might offer CRJ70's to Mainline

[surplus1]

Something you all don't seem to be considering is the differences between the Delta PWA and the CMR and ASA PWA's.

The pay rates are the least of the problem. What costs reall money is the Delta pilot's relative lack of productivity coupled with their medical and retirement programs.

If the Delta pilots want to keep their work rules, retirement and medical benefits, they would have to go way below the pay scales at CMR and ASA to match the numbers. Perhaps they are willing to do that in order to take this airplane from ASA and CMR.

If they succeed in taking the type either by transferring the current aircraft to their certificate, creating a new certificate and taking all future deliveries plus transferring the current a/c, by simply adding "new" 70-seaters at mainline or any combination of the above, it will NOT improve anything at CMR or ASA. If anything, efforts to keep the aircraft at CMR and ASA would require that both of them "lower" their present book rates to less than whatever the Delta pilots might be willing to do it for.

To put it simply, there is NO WAY that placing the 70-seaters at Delta mainline can benefit ASA and Comair pilots. If you're a Delta pilot, I can't really blame you for pretending that it would. That's to your advantage. It is well known that you have "wanted" to take this airplane from CMR and ASA for a long time. The only thing that has prevent you from doing that is the Company, especially since the "union" is quite will to shaft its "regional" members if it benefits its "mainline" members. If you're an ASA or CMR pilot and you think this would be "good" for you, I suggest you do a lot of coffee smelling.

I would like to see all Delta pilots recalled from furlough. However, if they are recalled to fly CRJ700s, it will be at the expense of ASA and Comair pilots. Don't be gullible enough to think otherwise.

 

[checkessential]

Finally someone with a brain. Those ASA or Comairs pilots with dreams of a list integration, thinking donating -700s might help-keep dreaming. Give away your own job please, not mine! Get involved with your MEC instead.

 

[Palerider957]

What's the deal with "Song," how many furloughed pilots might that employ? It seems this is a much more likely place for the Delta guys then in a 700.

 

[hawkowl88]

ONE LIST, ONE LIST, ONE LIST!!!!

Comair & ASA pilots wake up. You work for Delta at C scale wages. Delta pilots need to wake up and stop putting a loaded gun to their own heads. If you don't get a one list soon--no matter what the cost--you won't have any jobs to call your own except international long haul. Scope is suicidal in this cutthroat economy. If you have this BS artificial scope, the bankrupt carriers and LCC's will clean your clocks. Contract, shmontract. Everything goes in Chapter 11. All three pilot groups can let themselves be played against each other and drive wages into the dirt, or unite and stop the job loss. Their is no difference in skill level between flying an RJ vs. a 777. Go to class, pass the sim, skate through IOE and you're just the same as every other airline pilot working stiff. You guys need to just bury the hatchet--and not in each others backs.

 

[NYRANGERS]

What's the deal with "Song," how many furloughed pilots might that employ? It seems this is a much more likely place for the Delta guys then in a 700.

Read the post about "Song" and you will see how it is structured. Song will not provide more A/.C it will use existing ones allreay in......aw forget it!!

 

[Dieterly]

Their is no difference in skill level between flying an RJ vs. a 777.

That's a good one!!!

 

[checkessential]

No, there is not any difference. Merely a less evovled autoflight system, absence of autothrust (RJ has fadec), and a large weight disparity. If you can fly an RJ, transition to a 777, or any other full glass airplane is a snap. If one truly thinks there is a difference in skill level required, think again. And please don't embarass yourself by making such a childlike suggestion. It makes me question your professional ability. Have you had problems with transition training or what????

 

[embdrvr]

it's not just about us

Let's say mainline gives the 70 seat flying to furloughed mainline guys. How much more money will be spent having the aircraft ground handled by mainline rampers? How much more does mainline mx cost compared to CMR/ASA? What about the effciency of mianline mx having to handle a new airframe? What about all the other costs besides the crew costs that we tend to obsess about?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: it's not just about us

Let's say mainline gives the 70 seat flying to furloughed mainline guys. How much more money will be spent having the aircraft ground handled by mainline rampers? How much more does mainline mx cost compared to CMR/ASA? What about the effciency of mianline mx having to handle a new airframe? What about all the other costs besides the crew costs that we tend to obsess about?

No more money at JFK, DCA, SAT, TOL, or any of the other airports that are already served by Delta ground handlers, or Delta contract people. Also, as we have seen at many airports, Delta simply closes the DL station and re-hires everyone who wants to work for ASA in the same positions. Isn't SHV, BHM, and MOB all places where that has happened? (Could be wrong about the airports, but I'm too tired to research it right now).

Delta MX already works on our airplanes at the TOC.

The crew costs we are so concerned with are about all Delta has to be concerned about, which is what makes this so scary. A dollar is a dollar to Delta and the Delta pilots may well push down on the competitive wage. After all, with the no furlough decision (which was the right decision) Delta has to pay these guys anyway and they might as well fly something for the money (and) Delta management has threatened to displace those pilots who would have been furloughed to the lowest paying equipment and pay them for staying home - so - having one RJ and a negotiated pay rate on the airplane might save Delta a bundle.

Delta management has no allegiance to Connection and they worry more about their mainline pilots beacuse ALPA supports the mainline pilots. To the extent that Delta and ALPA have a common interest, the Connection pilots are completely hosed because our union locks us out of negotiations with Delta and we will learn about anything that happens before we have any opportunity to even participate.

This is the perfect opening for jets for jobs at Delta and the only restraint is the litigation brought forward by the RJDC. It is easy to imagine a deal by which airplanes in excess of the 57 allowed under current scope are flown by mainline and when all the mainline guys are recalled, then Connection gets them - or something like that.

Politically, the ground work has already been laid when the Delta MEC began the PR war against the Comair MEC. Regardless of whether what they were told is the truth, the Delta pilots' frustration has been directed against the Connection pilots, Comair pilots in particular.

It would require 97 additional CRJ700's to execute a deal like that, not counting for mainline retirements. Delta has 400, or so, options remaining with Bombardier.

Disclaimer - all of this is completely ubsubstantiated rumor. I have no information that RJ's are going to mainline - just thinking through the possibility.

 

[CF34-3B1]

So if CL65s wind up at mainline, will there be another PID filed? Seems the "No operational integration" arguement is out the window at that point.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

It would lead to a PID. However, it would not lead to a merger because the decision is mgt's. We have no authority to force them to merge the lists, and I think it would be a cold day in Hades before they did. That is what is so humorous about those who blame Delta pilots for the fact that we don't have onelist. It's not our call. It's mgt's, and they would never give up their cost advantage or "portfolio".

 

[~~~^~~~]

Good point - but the "no operational integration" arguement was bull effluvia back then and they knew it. They actually changed the definition in the Consitution and Bylaws to try to hide the fact that the airlines were operationally integrated by the current standard of the day. Also there were some out right lies told at the BOD to muddy the issue even further.

However, the Connection pilots have always been in the position to get stapled. Not many of us want on the bottom of the Delta list at the moment. At the same timem the Delta MEC feels they can simply take the airplanes without having to fight for one list - or water down their airline by allowing a bunch of sub standard pilots to come on board before their military buddies - so there is no political will for a PID at the moment. Any politician that supported it would lose his job during the next vote. So don't expect anything there.

The RJDC litigation keeps the Delta MEC from doing anything really nasty to the Connection pilots - IE Jets for Jobs. The outcome of the motions heard on the 29th of January may have a pretty significant effect on how much latitude the Delta MEC has in these negotiations. If the suit survives, ALPA National will have to excert some control over the predatory actions of the mainline MEC. If the suit is dismissed, the Delta MEC can take what ever they want from Connection - there will be no one to stop them.

 

[sleepy]

It would lead to a PID. However, it would not lead to a merger because the decision is mgt's. We have no authority to force them to merge the lists, and I think it would be a cold day in Hades before they did. That is what is so humorous about those who blame Delta pilots for the fact that we don't have onelist. It's not our call. It's mgt's, and they would never give up their cost advantage or "portfolio".

Actually, it was DALPA and ALPA national that blocked the PID. It never made it to management for a decision.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Would it have mattered? We cannot combine the lists. Only mgt can, and they have gone on record stating that they would spin off DCI before agreeing to merge them.

Without their permission, anything we do is purely academic.

 

[NYRANGERS]

How about we merge the lists DOH, and put up a 30 year fence. Nothing bigger than the 70 seater, with only 57 available for CMR. This is only way I see this ever happening. No DCI pilot deserves to be one number higher than any Delta mainline pilot currently on the list!!!!!!!!!! But I guess a 20 or 30 year fence might shut up the DOH people.

Have a nice day,

NYR

 

[General Lee]

Checkessential,

Have you ever landed a 767-300 into LGA at night with high winds? No? That's what I thought. Flying a larger plane is a lot more stressful in certain situations than flying an RJ. Don't get me wrong, I like the RJ. Ever had a bad landing (due to winds, ofcourse) with 250 people behind you? Just because they are both advanced (777 and CRJ) doesn't mean they fly the same.


Fins,
Integration of the senority list would not be possible if management made another subsidiary with CRJ70's and allowed furloughed pilots to fly them. There is nothing the RJDC or anybody could do about it. They could call it "Dance" and let it fly "filler" flights between larger cities and limit it to 40 or 50 CRJ70's. If they tag it on to mainline, then the regional guys could claim integration, but with another subsidiary, they cannot.
Is this a J4J situation? Yes. We want our furloughed pilots back on the property, and we could possibly negotiate a reasonable rate for the CRJ-70, as long as there is a definite number of them allowed---like 50. If we gave them "unlimited" numbers---guess what? All we would have would be CRJ-70's. Atleast we have the sims already---in ATL. (also in Montreal, SLC, CVG, and Lyon)
I think our furloughed pilots (and some junior mainline ones that want to be Captains) would go for it in a second. I don't think the RJDC would have a case here----the company is in charge of where the jets go.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Russ]

I try not to get pulled down into the gutter....

Gen Lee
One of the side effects of the current situation is that there are alot more mil heavy drivers at the regionals than there ever used to be. Many say that due to the lack of automation, no LEDs and other considerations that it was harder to fly than the heavy they came from. Many flew aircraft larger than the 767. This is from folks who have flown both. The 727 I flew as a FO could be a handful, but the level of competence was nothing a RJ guy couldn't master in short order.

 

[DCAV8R]

General Lee wrote:

"Have you ever landed a 767-300 into LGA at night with high winds? No? That's what I thought. Flying a larger plane is a lot more stressful in certain situations than flying an RJ. Don't get me wrong, I like the RJ. Ever had a bad landing (due to winds, ofcourse) with 250 people behind you? Just because they are both advanced (777 and CRJ) doesn't mean they fly the same."

Give me a break General - I just happened to have a Delta 777 Capt. on my jumpseat last night - according to him the 777 is one of the easiest airplanes to fly and land - x-wind or no x-wind.

Have you ever landed an RJ into Key West with a howling x-wind out of the north?

DCAv8r

 

[~~~^~~~]

Checkessential,

Have you ever landed a 767-300 into LGA at night with high winds? No? That's what I thought.

Have you ever landed that darn ATR in a crosswind. There are 10 speed bikes less top heavy and with a wider footprint.

As far as another subsidiary - I hope your MEC will finally stop the proliferation of alter ego flying, but 'eh, its your C scale. Where does Delta have a CRJ700 sim in Atlanta? ASA is working on one, but it is not up and certified yet. You guys going to take that too?

Heck, why don't you just take all of our airplanes? See if you can get Milosevic to turn the ASA pilots into fill dirt for the runway expansion project.

You guys already feel you are above the law. If you are going to be crazy - why hold back on us? Go completely Mariah Carey.

 

[Mayday911]

General Lee,

You ever land a BAe-146 in Aspen, at night with howling winds? I didn't think so...LGA piece of cake.

Cross wind...thats when the downwind wheel is supposed to touch first right, or is it...**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**!!

Get your head out of your rear, you are not a hero cause you fly an airplane that carries 250 people.

Mayday.