Delta might offer CRJ70's to Mainline

[avrodriver]

I'm not trying to piss anyone off here....and trust me I understand as a regional guy currently starting back over at the bottom how important future a/c orders are so we can all move up the list, but I keep hearing the ASA/Comair guys saying "now you want my job", they don't want your job, they want to create new jobs for the guys that are on the street. Be reasonable, what do you propose Delta do with them? Those planes aren't anyone's to claim. I honestly think why do they want the 70 seater anyway......they are going to have to pay two flight attendants and two Delta pilot's a never before seen "regional rate" anyway, why not increase the revenue and trade the planes on option for 90 seaters instead, any reasoning to that General?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ok, lets get this straight. When I hired in my airline operated four engine jets up to 105 seats. We could have unlimited RJ's 70 seats, whatever.

Currently we are limited to 1/2 an order of 57 CRJ700's and we are shrinking this year dues to EMB120 retirements and ALPA just sent me an e-mail telling me to revise my bid because it is likely I will get displaced to the right seat.

I fly a aircraft with more than 50 seats. My union President is running around calling for a "natural dividing line" at 50 seats and the Delta MEC Chairman threatened an ALPA EVP with "taking your 70 seaters."

These are the facts. Clearly a trend is developing. As a result of my union's bargaining I may lose my seat this year. It has nothing to do with the performance of my airline, we have done great this year.

Obviously my contract has been violated. And yes, for the record I have filed a grievance. It will be interesting to see how Fly Delta Jets' proposed remedy to have me thrown out of the union goes, since my grievance quotes the same parts of the Constitution and Bylaws.

If my actions violate his scope, then his actions violate mine. I do not hold that the Delta MEC has the right to negotiate my wages and working conditions with my employer without my representation. In my view, it is not a contract because the parties to the contract never participated, or ratified it.

However, there are reasons that this whole 70 seat thread may be moot. If Delta had one CRJ700, they could displace all 360 (?) pilots who have nothing to fly now, but will be paid anyway to sit. If there was a CRJ700 with a low pay rate, Delta would save a budle by not having to pay MD88 rates while these guys sit at home. As we well know DALPA is not big on any action that reduces dues monies - one CRJ700 would be a large net loss to the Delta pilot group. I don't even think Delta would have to train them to displace them. I'll let Fly Delta Jets explain what is wrong with this scenario...

 

[~~~^~~~]

You're interpretation is incorrect. ALPA revised their motion because this is a fluid environment, and things change. One thing that changed is the new scope limits were set, which changed a portion of the motion. Read into it however you will. You will still lose, and even if you were to win, we're out of here. We'll start our own union, keep our scop clause, and tell you to go pound sand.

Nothing changed since the 29th of January. Some body is chewing on a hooey sandwich and swallowing every bite. Who feeds you this stuff? When it is appropriate I will post details and I saved your post for my "I told you so" file. Do you like your crow straight, or with bar B que sauce?

And did you include your threat to leave the union with your grievance to have me and thousands of other anonymous supporters thrown out for trying to restore it?

And... I love it. JC Lawson asks for the Delta MEC to address "brand scope" and you object. Maybe you should try to get Duane Woerth tossed out too, because he asked for the same thing.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Fins,

With all due respect, if your actions are indicitive of what you consider a "team player", I would just as soon not have you on my team.

P.S.
If you would like to know where I got my information about ALPA changing its motion, please read the "what's new" section of your joke of a lawsuits homepage. If something has happened since then, I have to admit ignorance. Since I do not stand to gain $12,000,000 (the sum demanded for EVERY comair pilot), I don't keep up on it as much as I should.

 

[sleepy]

I'm not trying to piss anyone off here....and trust me I understand as a regional guy currently starting back over at the bottom how important future a/c orders are so we can all move up the list, but I keep hearing the ASA/Comair guys saying "now you want my job", they don't want your job, they want to create new jobs for the guys that are on the street. Be reasonable, what do you propose Delta do with them? Those planes aren't anyone's to claim. I honestly think why do they want the 70 seater anyway......they are going to have to pay two flight attendants and two Delta pilot's a never before seen "regional rate" anyway, why not increase the revenue and trade the planes on option for 90 seaters instead, any reasoning to that General?

The 90 seat CRJ has poor performance and does not carry enough cargo to be economical at mainline payrates.

 

[sleepy]

Ok, lets get this straight. When I hired in my airline operated four engine jets up to 105 seats. We could have unlimited RJ's 70 seats, whatever.

Currently we are limited to 1/2 an order of 57 CRJ700's and we are shrinking this year dues to EMB120 retirements and ALPA just sent me an e-mail telling me to revise my bid because it is likely I will get displaced to the right seat.

I fly a aircraft with more than 50 seats. My union President is running around calling for a "natural dividing line" at 50 seats and the Delta MEC Chairman threatened an ALPA EVP with "taking your 70 seaters."

These are the facts. Clearly a trend is developing. As a result of my union's bargaining I may lose my seat this year. It has nothing to do with the performance of my airline, we have done great this year.

Obviously my contract has been violated. And yes, for the record I have filed a grievance. It will be interesting to see how Fly Delta Jets' proposed remedy to have me thrown out of the union goes, since my grievance quotes the same parts of the Constitution and Bylaws.

If my actions violate his scope, then his actions violate mine. I do not hold that the Delta MEC has the right to negotiate my wages and working conditions with my employer without my representation. In my view, it is not a contract because the parties to the contract never participated, or ratified it.

However, there are reasons that this whole 70 seat thread may be moot. If Delta had one CRJ700, they could displace all 360 (?) pilots who have nothing to fly now, but will be paid anyway to sit. If there was a CRJ700 with a low pay rate, Delta would save a budle by not having to pay MD88 rates while these guys sit at home. As we well know DALPA is not big on any action that reduces dues monies - one CRJ700 would be a large net loss to the Delta pilot group. I don't even think Delta would have to train them to displace them. I'll let Fly Delta Jets explain what is wrong with this scenario...

What scope does Comair have that controls any DAL flying? Please post the contract language here.

 

[General Lee]

Sleepy,

You are grasping at straws. No one really knows what Delta and Dalpa might negotiate. Sure, the 90 seater may not carry the right amount of cargo for "mainline wages." Who cares? Also, do you really think Dalpa would negotiate a rate that would be too expensive right now for Delta? They would never go for anything if it was. Dalpa would negotiate a fair rate and some dues are better than no dues for the ALPA coffers. IF there were a limited number of 70 seaters added to a subsidiary, then that would allow the wheels of motion to start getting the furloughs back. If United goes Chap 7, I read that Delta MAY be interested in a SFO base or some INTL routes with new 777's being a part of the picture. Well, that would ramp up training again and the end result would be an additional 50 or so 70 seaters under our wing. That is something Dalpa has wanted for a long time--large RJs. They are still pissed that they didn't get some sort of rein on the RJ's back in the early 90's. Right now they want to do something for the furloughs--which really translates in doing something for themselves. Don't count this out, and this next Tuesday Dalpa is meeting with Management to "look over" the state of Delta---and I am sure they will start asking for $$ and relief. We won't do it for nothing---we will benefit somehow. They don't care who flies the RJ's---as long as the pay rates are reasonable. Our rates could be slightly higher---but that would be in exchange for an extra 50 or so 70 seaters that they NEVER would have had (atleast until past 2005). It will be interesting---and all I have to say is "Thanks Lawson!"

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sleepy]

Sleepy,

You are grasping at straws. No one really knows what Delta and Dalpa might negotiate. Sure, the 90 seater may not carry the right amount of cargo for "mainline wages." Who cares? Also, do you really think Dalpa would negotiate a rate that would be too expensive right now for Delta? They would never go for anything if it was. Dalpa would negotiate a fair rate and some dues are better than no dues for the ALPA coffers. IF there were a limited number of 70 seaters added to a subsidiary, then that would allow the wheels of motion to start getting the furloughs back. If United goes Chap 7, I read that Delta MAY be interested in a SFO base or some INTL routes with new 777's being a part of the picture. Well, that would ramp up training again and the end result would be an additional 50 or so 70 seaters under our wing. That is something Dalpa has wanted for a long time--large RJs. They are still pissed that they didn't get some sort of rein on the RJ's back in the early 90's. Right now they want to do something for the furloughs--which really translates in doing something for themselves. Don't count this out, and this next Tuesday Dalpa is meeting with Management to "look over" the state of Delta---and I am sure they will start asking for $$ and relief. We won't do it for nothing---we will benefit somehow. They don't care who flies the RJ's---as long as the pay rates are reasonable. Our rates could be slightly higher---but that would be in exchange for an extra 50 or so 70 seaters that they NEVER would have had (atleast until past 2005). It will be interesting---and all I have to say is "Thanks Lawson!"

Bye Bye---General Lee

Question, If DAL buys part of UAL, Won't those UAL pilots that come with the aircraft be integrated into the DALPA list. How would that help you bring the furloughs back, since most of the UAL pilots would be senior to them on the integrated list? Doesn't the ALPA merger policy apply?

I am not opposed to your getting the RJ. I believe it will help ASA with pay and benefits in the long run. I just don't think they will want the 90 seater by Canadair. I have been told by some in our training department that DAL is not interested in it, that is all.
You can have all of the RJ's you want, as long as you don't mess with our's (ASA).

How does Lawson play into this?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Benefits

Dear General,

As we at US Airways found out while trying to negotiate Gangwal's "Plan B From Outer Space", a mainline regional jet product was challenging to negotiate.

The reason, as I'm sure you are aware, was that pilot compensation was only a fraction of the costs associated with operation.

More specifically it was the compensation and benefit packages of each and ever mainline employee which made the RJ non-competitive as a mainline product.

First and foremost. Lets assume that all other factors remain equal, you will agree that the Delta benefit package is far superior to anything offered by Comair, ASA, etc. Your retirement contributions, health-care etc amount to approximately 40% of your total compensation. Comair's are good -- but everyone knows that the pot-o'-gold at the mainline job is the retirement. As such, in order to have equal costs at Comair/ASA and Delta on a similar airframe, you would have to start with a pay-rate that is less than that which Comair/ASA pays. Your benefits have a dollar value which would need to be subtracted.

But even if you worked for free, (so Stephen Wolf preached to us...) the product could not be competitive. Pilots are the only employee group at the airline who are paid different rates when they work on different equipment.

Flight attendants, gate-agents, ramp-agents, aircraft cleaners, caterers, dispatchers, schedulers, -- you name it, all cost more at Delta Airlines due to the differential in pay and benefits at the mainline.

The only solutions, as you have suggested, would be:
#1. Hire furloughed Delta pilots at existing subsidiaries, or
#2. Start a new subsidiary staffed by furloughed Delta pilots, and hire support staff at competitive regional pay/benefit levels.

As you have seen if you've been following MidAtlantic's progress (or lack thereof) it is a difficult environment in which to start a new airline -- and a time consuming endeavour. Song, like Metrojet, is an airline-within-an-airline. I'd be somewhat surprised if DALPA would allow "Dance" to be a part of Delta-mainline, since common-fleet types with Connection carriers could come back to bite them down the road.

Why not tell the DALPA MEC chairman to go back to the Comair MEC and simply negotiate with them? Certainly it wasnt a take-it or leave-it offer... there's wiggle room on both sides... isnt there?

Good luck, regardless. To you and all of the 11,000 furloughed pilots undustrywide.

Furloughed Again

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain,

I also want all of the airlines furloughed pilots back in the cockpit as soon as possible---you included. The Comair MEC really struck a nerve with not only our MEC, but every Delta pilot---and that is a fact. We know how they feel about us, and they know how we feel about them. A friend of mine's wife is a flight attendant at a regional airline. She was riding in the hotel van with her crew and a Comair crew. My friend's wife asked the Comair female Capt if Comair was going to hire furloughed Delta pilots---to which she replied, "No, they never supported us in the strike." After more probing my friend's wife asked, "Are you sure they never supported you at all?" The Capt repeated, "None whatsoever." My friend's wife--who is married to a Delta pilot---finally said, "That's funny, I distinctly remember personally writing out checks at about $50.00 a month for my husband---supporting your strike...." The Comair Capt was dumbstruck. This is how it really is out there. They have no clue that we helped them the best we could at the time (with Pres Bush watching), and now they can't help us again. I am not going to get into this again with everyone, but that is how we feel. Going back to the Comair MEC is not a choice, and maybe our MEC can come up with a deal with Delta to create a subsidiary with 70 seaters---and start to get our furloughs back in the seat. I know USAir is doing the J4J thing, and I believe Delta can actually afford to get their own RJ's and add to the scope relief.

Sleepy,

If we buy planes etc. AFTER UAL goes chap7, then their pilots do not come with them. (I.E.--we buy or lease from the lessor directly) There is NO WAY our Union would take on more pilots (especially with DOH) with 1060 pilots out. After we bring back the furloughs and start bringing on ASA pilots, then we might take some UAL people etc. The bankers do not care about employees, only money. The airlines with the highest bids get the goods, and we have the most borrowing power for INTL routes etc.. (Yes, Southwest and maybe Jetblue could borrow a lot too---but highly unlikely---but they may go after all of the A320's and 737-300's etc... which could make them bigger too)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[embdrvr]

I'm surprised a CMR Cpt would accuse mainline of not supporting them during the strike. The support was indisputable although the motives may have been questionable. I know at least a few DAL mainline pilots hoped that CMR might negotiate themselves out of a job thus allowing mainline to fly RJ's.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

General

Dear General,

General quoted, "That's funny, I distinctly remember personally writing out checks at about $50.00 a month for my husband---supporting your strike.... "

Please excuse my ignorance General. But every ALPA pilot, from every ALPA carrier, was assessed by the association to pay strike benefits to the Comair pilots. All of us.

I admit that I am ignorant of any additional assistance offered by the Delta pilots but I would sincerely hope that your friend's wife was talking about ADDITIONAL checks in support of the Comair pilots, and not simply the same assessment checks that we all -- every ALPA pilot -- paid.

I am certainly interested in learning about any additional support that was provided to the Comair pilots by the Delta pilot group.

I sent an additional $100 to their family support fund. It was not much, but hopefully it helped. It was something that my wife and I decided we could do above and beyond the strike assessment that was mandated by the association. The pilots were, after all, trying to defend the profession. I admire them for walking the line. They deserve to wear that star.

I realize this is beyond the scope of this conversation, but as a reader of this forum and of the almost continuous Comair/Delta argument, I am curious as to what the other divisions of Delta Airlines did to support their striking Comair brothers.

Thank you in advance.

-Furloughed Again

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain,


Give me a break! I know that Everyone at ALPA helped write checks---but what else could we have done? Bush didn't let us strike ourselves---so a strike was not an option. We told management that we would not fly "struck work." A lot of our pilots walked the picket line with the Comair pilots. The strike lasted 3 months---and cost Delta $250 million. It was a good try and probably would have outlasted many other airlines---but Delta had the cash at the time to weather the storm. Did I support the Comair guys? Hell yes. I wanted them to get better pay and benefits. Why wouldn't I? Nobody was financially hurting back then. It's not my fault that Leo didn't budge. I, along with 25,000 other pilots from ALPA, gladly paid our monthly checks to help out. (and some people gave more per month into the Comair Family support fund etc.) What else could we have done? Each of us given $500 a month to every Comair pilot? Leo Mullin threatened to shut the whole thing down---he did. Luckily it didn't come to that. ASA would have taken over at CVG if Comair didn't come back. Overall, we all supported the Comair pilots totally---no doubt in that. Everytime I flew a 757 in there during the strike, the place was a ghost town. I hoped it would be over and they would win. It didn't work out that way. Now, after 9-11 and all of our furloughs, some of our guys need some help. What has happened to them? NOTHING. Hey, how about some of the Comair guys returning the favor and giving $50 or how about $25 a month to our furloughed guys that probably pitched in for them? What? Not going to do that? Don't make enough money, eh? Our guys don't deserve any help? They are already rich? What a double standard. And, to top it off---you said that everybody contributed to the Comair fund---all Alpa pilots. Well, Comair is hiring everyone else except us. (yes, they have to give up their senority numbers.....but Delta OWNS YOU AND ME---they make the rules and they have not complained to ASA about not doing just that.....sorry excuse) So, tell me what else we could have done? Our MEC should have done what? The Bush administration came out and said that there would be no strikes from the Majors that year. We didn't fly the struck work, and gave them as much support as we could. And now we have furloughed pilots in the middle---and they are the ones who are really losing out. No one really sees that. No wonder we are trying to get some 70 seaters in our name at a subsidiary. More to come! Thanks for the help Lawson!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FurloughedAgain]

What else could you have done?

Thanks General,

I was just curious to see if the Delta pilots did anything more than any other pilot group.

What could you have done? Thats not for me to say. Maybe some of the Comair pilots who participate in this discussion could answer your question.

General said, "Hey, how about some of the Comair guys returning the favor and giving $50 or how about $25 a month to our furloughed guys that probably pitched in for them?

If ALPA were to assess those pilots as they did all ALPA pilots during the strike I have no doubt in my mind that they would pay. The question I would ask is, if it were optional, how many DAL pilots would have participated?

As a fellow-furloughee (albeit from another carrier) I think its a GREAT idea for ALPA to assess its remaining membership $50, $100, $200 or a percentage of their pay per period to go into a family assistance fund for all furloughed pilots. Thats thinking outside of the box and I think we should all petition Duane Woerth with the idea. Well done!

Anyhow, thanks for answering my question.

-Furloughed Again

 

[46Driver]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO..... How is it that every thread after a given length degenerates into a Comair vs Delta slugfest????