Delta might offer CRJ70's to Mainline

[General Lee]

Ok now---take it easy. Easy there 9-11, don't blow a gasket. I am sure Aspen is tough in the winter at night---I bet I can go tit-for tat with all of you until we are sick----Like having to land a 757 into Kenai, Alaska in the winter (Due to a divert---ANC was fogged out) at night, no tower, 6500 feet, ice, nobody there--nothing but us and 150 pax---for 10 hours...yada yada yada.
Everyone has had war stories---congrats! I have flown on many 777 jumpseats and I also think that is an incredibly easy plane to fly---until you can't get straight in approaches---throw in weather and turns and every airplane is a little bit tougher to operate. Yippie. Got it?

Fins,

While you may think that we will take everything away from you, what should we do about our 1060 furloughed pilots? ASA has been nice enough to hire 13 of them (And they will eventually be hired at a good pace with us), but Comair will not. So, what can we do about them? We won't be receiving any 737-800's or A318's or 737-600's for a couple more years. Do we let them hang out for a couple more years? What new planes will Delta be getting in the near future, or what do they want right now? Answer is CRJ-70's and maybe 90's. You guys have been expanding like mad for the last year and a half. Good for you. Everyone there has gotten alittle more senior---which is great. Now Delta may want some scope relief, and have to ask us for it. Ofcourse we will want something for it---and we have 1060 pilots out right now. If ASA stopped hiring (due to E120's parking) and Comair says a flat out NO, what would you do? Dalpa doesn't make money with guys on the street---the only way to get dues is by getting them back in the cockpit. That would also lower the cobra payments all of us are gladly paying for the furloughs. It is a win-win for us. Delta would make a separate subsidiary, and gladly put those 70 seaters where they need them, with our furloughed pilots flying them. Delta right now has 340 or so extra pilots they do not know what to do with (after stopping furloughs at 1060----originally would have gone to 1400). What do you Fins want to say to the 340 pilots that were not furloughed? How about---hey guys--come to my right seat at ASA/Comair---or how about some go to the left seat and some to the right of new CRJ70's. Which do you think they would want to do? The rates would be competitive and would get the pilots back in the cockpit.
Any problems with that?

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[rjcap]

Gen Lee,

While anything is possible, I don't see Leo going for 70's on mainline. Its just to big a can of worms to open considering all the fuss that would create with op integration, pay rates and so on and so on.

Regarding the mainline pilots on furlough. Unfortunately the higher cost of labor is what will keep them out of the picture. The Usair, United and upcoming American bankruptcy will further squeeze Bid D into a corner and subsequently the mainline pilots.

Anything is possbile and I don't doubt Leo is negotiating everything for the pupose of finding some common ground. However, as a previous poster stated, the ancillary costs associated with mainline incorporating a Canadair product into their operations would only worsen the economic benefits of operating the RJ 70.

Time will tell.

 

[wil]

General- I can't speak for Comair but we should suspend all outside hiring and bring our furloughed brothers/sisters in from the street. And as conditions improve they can move back to mainline as feasible. All the talk of scope, jets for jobs, et cetera it is all B.S. The real enemy is the 325.00 walk-up fare (sameday) from TPA to LAX by SWA!! (My brother had to do this last month when he got stuck on a pass and had to get home). I'm not willing to give up my job and I don't expect a handout from mainline- I can pee in tall weeds with the best of them-but we have got to work together or we will all be on the street! Wil

 

[VFR on Top]

Checkessential,

Have you ever landed a 767-300 into LGA at night with high winds? No? That's what I thought. Flying a larger plane is a lot more stressful in certain situations than flying an RJ. Don't get me wrong, I like the RJ. Ever had a bad landing (due to winds, ofcourse) with 250 people behind you? Just because they are both advanced (777 and CRJ) doesn't mean they fly the same.

So what you're saying is that people who fly small jets aren't really qualified to fly large ones? Bad news for all the fighter pilots over whom the majors refuse the "one list" concept.

 

[CatYaaak]

Checkessential,

Have you ever landed a 767-300 into LGA at night with high winds? No? That's what I thought. Flying a larger plane is a lot more stressful in certain situations than flying an RJ. Don't get me wrong, I like the RJ. Ever had a bad landing (due to winds, ofcourse) with 250 people behind you?....
Bye Bye---General Lee

umm.....okaaaaaaaay.

 

[sleepy]

Checkessential,

Have you ever landed a 767-300 into LGA at night with high winds? No? That's what I thought. Flying a larger plane is a lot more stressful in certain situations than flying an RJ. Don't get me wrong, I like the RJ. Ever had a bad landing (due to winds, ofcourse) with 250 people behind you? Just because they are both advanced (777 and CRJ) doesn't mean they fly the same.


Well no general I have not done it in a 767, but I have done it in a DC-8. Have you ever landed a DC-8 in heavy winds, at night, after shooting an approach to minimums, raw data (FD and AP differed, as usual)? So what, now I fly an RJ.

 

[~~~^~~~]

While you may think that we will take everything away from you, what should we do about our 1060 furloughed pilots?:

Your MEC made that decision. Your MEC lied at the 2000 BOD meeting and stopped the PID that would have put your pilots right into the left seat of CRJ700's. Your furloughed pilots made the choice, through their representatives and should hold those representatives responsible.

I know your fleet plan is a disaster. All the MD88's & 90's, the MD11's, the old gen 737's and 727's all all scheduled to be gone in 5 to 6 years with only ~45 737-800's on the order books after 2005. That is why we told you that you needed us before.

But it is completely wrong for your MEC to exclude us, stop us from negotiating, lock us out of the negotiations and simply steal what ever they desire from our operation.

ASA has been nice enough to hire 13 of them (And they will eventually be hired at a good pace with us), but Comair will not. :

Oh Bull effluvia. You don't control that. Those Northwestern University Interns will get hired before any of us. So you are telling me that you would rather fly a month with me than a Comair pilot? Ha Ha - at least I would be a good volunteer at the LEC level.

Any problems with that? Bye Bye---General Lee

Yes, I have a problem with your MEC using ALPA to lock ASA pilots out of negotiations, then while our seat is empty you guys taking equipment that you already sold in previous negotiations. When you sell something it is no longer yours.

When I hired into ASA, we had four engine jets seating up to 105 pax. Now our union president is running around calling 50 seats a "natural dividing line" and you are giddly like a school girl to fly my airplane. Yes, I'm concerned. Even more so because ALPA feels they are above the law and they are desperate. (Jets for jobs is current ALPA policy) Delta is equally desperate.

Everyone on this board wrote that my earlier prognostications about jets for hobs at Delta was over pessimisitic, yet, here we are. The RJDC is the only thing that can throw a wrench in the DALPA machinery and don't kid yourself into believing the Comair suit is the only litigation that is ready to be filed.

If ALPA dares to try this, they had better allow the proper representation of all the ALPA pilots involved.

~~~^~~~

 

[General Lee]

RJCAP,

I know you may think that we at mainline are high priced and that it would never float with management, but I heard this rumor last Friday in the ATL Chief Pilot's office---which in reality is from Management. (Management pilots) They were talking about what THEY could offer Dalpa---it wasn't our idea. They obviously want some scope relief and they know that they have an excess of pilots. The separate subsidiary thing came out of their mouths, not mine. If Leo Mullin could get his hands on more 70 seaters than the allotted 57, and he has the options for 50 or 70 seaters, and he has too many mainline pilots now, don't you think he would go for it? I really don't think that Dalpa would negotiate rates that were way too expensive---they just want to get our pilots back---and Dalpa will win because we all know that ALPA is a business----and dues are important to them. IF there were a pre-set number of 70 seaters---like 50---and that was it, I bet Dalpa would go for it.

Fins,

I know you are upset, but what should we do about the 1060 out right now? Stop blaming our MEC and look at the problem. How about you call each one of them up and tell them too bad and it was the MEC's fault. Come on! We have 1060 pilots out and it may be a long time before they get back. Comair won't help period. ASA helped alittle, but now the hiring has stopped. Should we just sit around and complain about our MEC's misgivings and watch you guys grow and grow while our pilots sit out? Wrong. You never address the issue of what to do with the 1060. We should just sacrifice them, right? It was all their fault and they deserve to sit out, right? We have the sims available (yeah, I know the CRJ70 doesn't have a sim--but I believe there is a conversion course in YUL after you get the type on the CRJ50--right? We have plenty on CRJ50 sims, and plenty of flights to YUL). And, by the way, the FAA has approved a single type for the 737-600, 737-800, 757,767, 764,777 when Delta eventually puts the same displays in all of those aircraft (at a cost of $2mil per plane) in the future. Our training costs will go down big time, and our fleet will lose the MD88's eventually and be streamlined.
So, to sum it up---we have to help our furloughs because we aren't getting much help from anyone else. I am sure every furlough wouldn't mind flying that nice CRJ70, and Delta would probably like the scope relief---and we greedy mainline pilots have to help the company some how.....

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sleepy]

Actually General, there are several CRJ-700 sims around. The one in Atlanta (FSI) should be on line in March or April 2003. ASA trains you in the CRJ-200 first, then sends you through a differences training course for the 700. I guess you could do the whole initial course in the 700 though.

Should be interesting if you all try to take the 700's from ASA and Comair. That should help the RJDC fund raising efforts. Hell, I might even join too.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Should be interesting if you all try to take the 700's from ASA and Comair. That should help the RJDC fund raising efforts. Hell, I might even join too.

I don't think the alloted amout of 57 to 76 700's would be flown by furloughed pilots. We would fly any amount our mec MAY allow over that amount.

Do you really think that 1060 of us should just remain jobless so you can continue to hire?(not sure if you work for a DCI carrier)

We tried to make it possible for us to come over to CMR and work at the bottom of their list.They said they were not interested unless we gave huge concessions. What the he11 do you expect us to do now? CMR had thier chance to work with us, now we have moved on and are seeking other alternatives. We fly the alotted overage of 700's under a separate PWA negotiaited for us by DALPA.

Now I am not saying this will come to fruition, but like you guys keep telling us........We are going to be furloughed for a long time. So we are going to try to do something about it.

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain and Sleepy,

What are you guys talking about? First of all, none of the current Comair or ASA pilots would be furloughed, the only thing that would happen is future growth would grind to a stop(like ours.) Oh wait, you would still get tons of 50 seaters. There would be a separate subsidiary with new CRJ70's---not the ones you fly or have on order(up to 57). Since Delta ----not Comair or ASA---has options on CRJ50's and 70's---possibly those options would go towards 70 seaters and those new ones would be at the subsidiary----some people have called Dance. All of this comes from the ATL Chief Pilot's office---and they are the ones you should direct your anger to. As far as the RJDC, it has no say in where the planes go----the company does. If the company wants scope relief from a contract that was signed by the management who owns all of us, then we might give it to them---possibly helping our furloughs. You think we are greedy at mainline? Take a look in the mirror----"you can't take away our growth (like we are doing to you), I'm going to tell my Mom!!!" You guys are growing at a huge rate right now, and we are shrinking. (sure, RJ's are helping us---ok---we'll fly some new ones now---and we will help Mama Delta---right?) I am sure we can come up with a fair rate that gets our guys back in the sky and gives Mama Delta some relief, which is what everyone wants, right? Right.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

We are going to be furloughed for a long time. So we are going to try to do something about it.

Your MEC's actions are why you (they) are furloughed. What your MEC did in the fall of 2000 put you on the street. What your MEC did a month ago drove the point home - they are more concerned about future military pilots than they are putting the 1,060 back to work under any sort of plan that would be mutually beneficial to the Connection pilots.

If you guys want RJ's, then you need to come up with inclusive scope, just like the Comair MEC told you. Comair never said "no" they said "lets negotiate." The Delta MEC Chairman is the one that refused to work something (anything) out - citing his concern for future military pilots.

The Delta MEC has had every opportunity to fix this problem, but they refuse to allow the Connection pilots to be part of the solution. I'm telling you now, believe me later, we are going to get to the negotiating table.

Not that our arguement matters much here. ALPA's motion for dismissal is going very badly - so badly that they have revised it three times. ALPA's revisions (in violation of Court protocol) have delayed the Court's ruling in the matter, but these sort of amended filings are sure signs that they think their earlier responses were lacking.

Thank you General Lee and NY Rangers for illustrating just why the RJDC is relevant and needed to protect my job.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Your MEC's actions are why you (they) are furloughed. What your MEC did in the fall of 2000 put you on the street. What your MEC did a month ago drove the point home - they are more concerned about future military pilots than they are putting the 1,060 back to work under any sort of plan that would be mutually beneficial to the Connection pilots.

If you guys want RJ's, then you need to come up with inclusive scope, just like the Comair MEC told you. Comair never said "no" they said "lets negotiate." The Delta MEC Chairman is the one that refused to work something (anything) out - citing his concern for future military pilots.

The Delta MEC has had every opportunity to fix this problem, but they refuse to allow the Connection pilots to be part of the solution. I'm telling you now, believe me later, we are going to get to the negotiating table.

Not that our arguement matters much here. ALPA's motion for dismissal is going very badly - so badly that they have revised it three times and the most recent revision counters their earlier allegations. ALPA's revisions have delayed the Court's ruling in the matter, but these sort of amended filings are sure signs that they think their earlier responses were lacking.

Thank you General Lee and NY Rangers for illustrating just why the RJDC is relevant and needed to protect my job.

Just one more thing. Getting our 1060 pilots back to work will have nothing to do with you or your airline. If we want RJ's we only need Delta to make it happen, again this has nothing to do with you. We are not really in the negotiating mood anymore. We will find our own ways to get 1060 pilots flying again. We don't need your help on this one.

So sue away, you and your rjdc buddies can try all you like to destroy the industry. It looks like we are moving to a point of no return with regards to union commonality to combat your weak and tired guys who need to sue for their failures in life.

Try to remember, I don't want your job and I don't want you to loose your job. I just want a job for the 1060.

Please explain how by my getting a job will endanger your job. I mean, how many friggin planes can you fly at once? I have seen children with a more mature attitude.

Anyway I can see where this is headed, so BYE BYE for now.

NYR

PS anyone know where I can get a hold of a CL 65 manual? Just want to be prepared!

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Your MEC's actions are why you (they) are furloughed. What your MEC did in the fall of 2000 put you on the street.

You are deluded if you think that is the reason we are furloughed. Do you honestly believe it would have made the slightest bit of difference if they approved the PID?

It wouldn't have. Mgt would never merge the lists. Please give me one good reason why they would.



What your MEC did a month ago drove the point home - they are more concerned about future military pilots than they are putting the 1,060 back to work under any sort of plan that would be mutually beneficial to the Connection pilots.




Because they wouldn't agree to demolish our scope clause?




If you guys want RJ's, then you need to come up with inclusive scope, just like the Comair MEC told you.


Actually, if we want rjs, we'll attempt to get them through negotiations with our management. You, despite your illusions, have nothing to do with it.



Comair never said "no" they said "lets negotiate." The Delta MEC Chairman is the one that refused to work something (anything) out - citing his concern for future military pilots.

Actually, lawson asked us to (among other things) detroy our scope and then try to negotiate scope for them. Sorry. Not going to happen. I support my mec's decision. While he did not agree to "total" preferential hiring, he wasn't asking for it from the cmr mec either.




The Delta MEC has had every opportunity to fix this problem, but they refuse to allow the Connection pilots to be part of the solution. I'm telling you now, believe me later, we are going to get to the negotiating table.[b/]

Have fun when you're there. You will fail to abrogate our contract in court, and you will fail to do so at the negotiating table.



Not that our arguement matters much here. ALPA's motion for dismissal is going very badly - so badly that they have revised it three times. ALPA's revisions (in violation of Court protocol) have delayed the Court's ruling in the matter, but these sort of amended filings are sure signs that they think their earlier responses were lacking.


You're interpretation is incorrect. ALPA revised their motion because this is a fluid environment, and things change. One thing that changed is the new scope limits were set, which changed a portion of the motion. Read into it however you will. You will still lose, and even if you were to win, we're out of here. We'll start our own union, keep our scope clause, and tell you to go pound sand. And before you respond that if we do that you'll get to negotiate with Delta, you just told me that you're going to do that anyway. It still won't matter. You won't abrogate our contract, no matter how hard you try. (P.S. the mere effort to interfere with, abrogate, or emliminate the contract of another pilot group is grounds for dismissal from the union. That ball has already been put in motion.)



Thank you General Lee and NY Rangers for illustrating just why the RJDC is relevant and needed to protect my job.

Your job is not threatened. Ours are.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,

I know it seems like you are "fighting for your survival" out there, but what about the 1060 pilots that are on the street? We need to find a cockpit for them to fly in---and you yourself said that we aren't getting any new airplanes anytime soon---except maybe some RJ's. Sounds like a solution to me. But, you want to hurry up and get the RJ's and upgrades for yourselves, and maybe let our furloughed pilots sit at the bottom and fly continuous duty overnights for 3 years until they come back. Well, how about we form a separate subsidiary and fly 50 70 seaters ourselves and bypass the whole process? I know you think our MEC is Satan and he is ruining this for all of us. If Comair's MEC had just allowed some of our pilots to go to the bottom of their list, this whole thing might not have occured. I think you should blame Lawson for this mess also. You guys have had HUGE growth in the last 18 months---and that has helped you big time. How about giving a little back to the furloughed pilots? Our MEC's primary job is to look out for Delta pilots first, and then maybe your issues. It sounds like Lawson got off to a bad start with Buergy, and that wasn't very smart. I really don't think allowing some of our furloughed pilots to the Bottom of Comair's list was that big of a deal, but Lawson made it one. Allowing our pilots to go to the bottom would have been one step in mending bridges, but he blew it. When Delta comes asking for concessions eventually, I believe that our MEC will be looking out for all of OUR pilots---no doubt about it.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Otto]

No way!!!!

Furloughedagain and Sleepy,

You think we are greedy at mainline? Take a look in the mirror....You guys are growing at a huge rate right now, and we are shrinking.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Man, I guess I was out of town and my answering machine was off when Leo called to ask me how I wanted to allocate the Delta fleet. Anyone else at Comair or ASA miss the call?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

It seems that the rjdc didn't miss it.

 

[sleepy]

I thought you guys were implying some scheme by which DALPA would take the aircraft presently at ASA and Comair, and fly them with furloughed mainline pilots. If that is not the case, then I have no problem with you getting your own CR7's for the mainline. If you can make that deal with DAL, then go for it.

I have always supported the hiring of furloughed mainline (or any line for that matter) pilots at my airline, ASA. That is how I got here. What the Comair pilots do is their business, they will have to deal with the fall-out someday.

General, are you saying that in exchange for enough CR7's at mainline to give all 1060 furloughed pilots a job (I guess around 200 aircraft), you will allow more CR7's at ASA/Comair? Is that what you are saying the plan is?

If so, then what happens to all of those CR7 aircraft at mainline after all of the 1060 move up to 7NG, etc...?

 

[avrodriver]

General, are you saying that in exchange for enough CR7's at mainline to give all 1060 furloughed pilots a job (I guess around 200 aircraft), you will allow more CR7's at ASA/Comair? Is that what you are saying the plan is?




I don't think you get it.......what they are saying isn't any type of deal....they don't have to negotiate anything or give anything to Comair/ASA. I think if they started taking future delieveries of the 70 seater after you guys got your required 57 or whatever number it is I wouldn't see any reason for them not to take the remainder of all of the orders.....1060 is alot of guys, enough to staff about 100 airplanes or more and get everyone off the street, why stop there when they could actually grow and start hiring again. Delta has the planes on order/option and has them promised to no one. Up to this point we all thought they would go to Comair or ASA, but yeah......I guess why not Delta itself
if they can make it economical enough for mgmt to bite. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Yes I think operating cost will be more, but why pay guys to sit at home when they can make them money or at least help them break even, on the flip side I wonder if the whole victory for the furloughs would even matter if Delta declared file Chaper 11 (easy way to get out of it I bet, and compete with the big two big U's). In any event, congrads to Delta guys for putting a stop to using 9/11 as an excuse to keep screwing pilots, well played! -A.D.

 

[checkessential]

This is hysterical. DALPA would not even think about concessions to save their own, and still won't. So now it's my job they want? Yeah, sure and I'll take a couple MD-88's with that order.