Delta might offer CRJ70's to Mainline

[General Lee]

I heard Friday in the ATL chief pilot's office that Delta may want some relief on scope and might make an offer to Dalpa to allow the furloughed pilots the ability to fly 30 or 40 NEW CRJ-70's for mainline---(none of which would be the 57 on order for DCI) maybe with a different operating certificate---like Song. (Call it "Dance"----so you have Song and Dance) Anyways, I think that would be great for the furloughs, and it would get them back quicker. The guy I talked to there said that they would have to negotiate a pay rate---which would be competitive with Comair's. Well, atleast we could get the furloughs back faster, and with the surge in retirements at Mainline, hopefully the return will be quick.
I think that 70 seat CRJ is pretty slick.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[checkessential]

Suddenly, flying a CRJ doesn't look so bad. Funny how folks change their opinion when it suits them best...

 

[General Lee]

I never said flying a CRJ was bad, I happen to like them and have jumped on them quite a bit to Florida. The key point here is that our furloughed pilots MIGHT have a chance to fly again--sooner than later---and not have to beg Comair for a job they won't give them. If this does happen, it will help Delta alittle, and help our furloughed pilots. Sounds good to me.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NYRANGERS]

Suddenly, flying a CRJ doesn't look so bad. Funny how folks change their opinion when it suits them best...

Where do you guys come up with this crap? Most of us have flown these types of airplanes before. Remember, you guys are not exclusive to having "commuter" experience. Some of us actually flew for a commuter and then moved on.

GFYS

 

[miller22]

Or better yet,
How about Delta MEC relaxes the 57 70-seater limit in turn for furloughed Delta pilots retaining their seniority number while flying them? The aircraft would be much more profitable and the end result is the same... or would that cause an ego problem?
The RJ's are profitable greatly because they don't have to pay the rediculous main-line rates for the pilots. If DAL could pay the same rate as Comair/ASA pays, then your theory might be a possibility, however I don't see that happening. Don't forget the astronomical cost of training, spare-parts inventory, and legal costs, not to mention the costs if they would spin-off a whole new airline. But hey, Delta has already been successful at driving a wedge between union groups, why not go after this bait too?
Although, with the latest legal ruling, if Delta is required to recall pilots without having anything for them to fly, taking deep losses on 70-seaters may be less devastating than taking deeper losses paying pilots to do nothing. Of course DALPA cares little about the financial welfare of the airline, or else they'd realize that even-though RPK's are nearing 9-11 numbers, the prices pax are paying for the tickets are half what they were. Hiring back 1063 furloughed pilots instantly increases annual payroll by $100 million, and that number doesn't take into account training and other misc. costs. The airline already hemorraged $1.3 billion last year, and ALPA seems determined to increase that number for 2003. This is horrible news for Delta and could be the next step to follow United into the inevitable. Could this be why unions always fail at running airlines?

 

[NYRANGERS]

I give up! I can't keep responding to the same ridiculous and uninformed posts over and over... As a counter to Miller's nonsense, please read all the other posts relating to pilots pay, recall, contracts and such...

Heck, now I know how those JetBlue guys must feel every time someone tries to tell them they are not paying for their A320s.

Miller, do some research and come back later.

 

[Palerider957]

GFYS.......

 

[NYRANGERS]

GFYS.......

Glad you like it

 

[Palerider957]

....we're not all as dumb as we look....

 

[rjcap]

Some of us actually flew for a commuter and then moved on.

Let me be the first to welcome you back to the "commuters."

Anything that helps to increase my 70 seat pay rate will be appreciated ! I'm sure DALPA would never accept the current 70 seat pay rates so the debate would only help ASA during its contract negotiations.

Assuming this actually comes to fruition then Leo would have accomplished the following:

1. Placing mainine pilots into RJ's at something slightly better then regional pay.

2. A common type flown by mainline and DCI.

3. Increasing the number of 70 seaters in the Delta system also creating a net increase in allowable DCI block hours.

4. Can you guess the last one ??????

 

[ExAF]

Whether or not you fly RJs has never been the issue. Mainline pilots have never had a problem with flying RJs at mainline, they just won't do it for 17K a year. Put a reasonable rate on the aircraft (probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a 727FE rate or something less than the lowest current or renegotiated FO rate) and guys will fall all over themselves to fly the RJ. I for one have always thought flying an RJ would be fun and would be more than happy to fly one at a mainline airline at a somewhat mainline rate. Ego has nothing to do with it...its just business.

 

[Mayday911]

This would be a nice reason for a petition to the NMB to declare DAL and DCI a "single transportation system" aka One Carrier.

Good Luck to ALL,

Mayday

 

[sleepy]

General,

I hope they do something to get your guys back. I have heard that DAL is getting an additional 50 of the 70 seaters (really converting 50 seat orders to 70 seat orders) to be split between ASA and Comair. If true DAL would certainly need to make a deal with DALPA to exceed the current limits on these aircraft.

I hope they do add some to mainline, that would certainly bolster our operational integration argument. I would think tohat management and ALPA would have to work together to start a new WO for furloughed mainline pilots to prevent this from happening.

My question is, what do they do with this new WO after all of the originally furloughed mainline pilots return to mainline? Do they now make all DAL newhires start in the 70 seat RJ. That would certainly make DAL less attractive to the high quality military pilots that they covet. I have heard many arguments against One List from mainline pilots (over on the ALPA board), "The best military guys will not come to DAL if they have to fly an RJ."

Then there is the pay and benefits problem for DAL. They will certainly be helping the ASA and Comair pilots if pay and benefits are better at a new WO (or mainline) for the same aircraft we fly. I doubt DAL would want this to happen. If the pay is the same as ASA and Comair, why would a furloughed mainline pilot want to work there. I have heard many times on the ALPA boards, "Thanks for offering to hire our furloughed pilots (ASA only BTW), but our guys are sharp and have already found better paying jobs elsewhere (the Home Depot is mentioned a lot)."

Finally, 70 seat RJ production rates are allowing DAL to take about 4 per month for ASA and Comair. It will take a while for mainline to aquire the aircraft (unless they just take them away from ASA or Comair). It will take about a year for them to start a new WO from scratch. By then, won't quite a few of the furloughed mainline pilots already be back at mainline (I hear that quite a few guys are retiring now to get their lump sum payment before any possible bankruptcy + the economy should be turning around if the Gulf War part II is successful)?

I doubt that you will see 70 seat aircraft at mainline. It is more likely that they will add a 100 seat aircraft to mainline (I hear the A-318 will be the choice). This would avoid a lot of the problems I noted above. The 90/100 seat RJ does not carry enough cargo to make it profitable at mainline pay rates. The ERJ-190; I doubt DAL will ever have another Embrare product of the property again.

Let the flames blow!

 

[super ed]

You guys don't get it. 70 seats at Delta 50 seats at Comair and ASA. No operational integration. No more 70's at Comair and ASA.
The change in scope wpuld be to change allowable types to 50 seats or less.

Super

 

[sleepy]

Whether or not you fly RJs has never been the issue. Mainline pilots have never had a problem with flying RJs at mainline, they just won't do it for 17K a year. Put a reasonable rate on the aircraft (probably somewhere in the neighborhood of a 727FE rate or something less than the lowest current or renegotiated FO rate) and guys will fall all over themselves to fly the RJ. I for one have always thought flying an RJ would be fun and would be more than happy to fly one at a mainline airline at a somewhat mainline rate. Ego has nothing to do with it...its just business.

Yea, it is a fun aircraft to fly. But, we are continually to by management that the RJ just would not be profitable at mainline pay rates. My question is, why would DAL pay mainline pay for RJ flying when ASA, Comair, ACA, Skywest, and Chit will all do the same job ofr less? Just to get more RJ's? They can already have up to 49% of DAL flying in RJ's, do you think they want even more than this?

 

[ExAF]

General,

My question is, what do they do with this new WO after all of the originally furloughed mainline pilots return to mainline? Do they now make all DAL newhires start in the 70 seat RJ. That would certainly make DAL less attractive to the high quality military pilots that they covet. I have heard many arguments against One List from mainline pilots (over on the ALPA board), "The best military guys will not come to DAL if they have to fly an RJ."

You obviously read my earlier post but didn't believe that us "coveted military guys" have no problem with starting in the RJ. Flyin is flyin. I also didn't say DAL would want to do this...I don't think they will. My point was that flying an RJ or not has nothing to do with pilot ego, just business. Cheers.....

 

[FR8mastr]

I keep seeing the posts change direction depending on the who is flying the AC. Bottom line. ALL FLYING MUST BE DONE BY THE SAME COMPANIES PILOTS. The WOed pilots (I am one) do not get date of hire on the ML list, we get stapled to the bottom behind all current ML pilots. All new hire pilots at the airline go behind us on the now ONE LIST. Management gets appropriate pay rates for the size of AC. Check your freakin ego's look at the big picture and work towards what is the only way to stop the whipsaw and the outsourcing!

 

[General Lee]

The current scope limit for DCI carriers is 57 70 seat RJ's. Delta cannot just split up 50 seat orders and give more than 57 of them to DCI. The only way to get more of them is to deal with Dalpa. Dalpa has a problem on its hands with the 1060 furloughs. The only real answer to get the furloughs back quicker is to get them on some type of new equipment--and Delta seems to want more 70 seaters. The 737-200's will still be around, especially since their leases don't expire for a couple more years. Then the newer 100 seaters (apparently LEO and the boys went up to Chicago---Boeing's new headquarters---and pulled a fast one on them---said they were only staying there for an hour because they had to get back to ATL so they could "catch a flight to Europe"---(Airbus)---which really freaked them out---so my guess is that they will get a good deal on the 106 seat 737-600, which will have the same type rating as the 737-800 etc.) will be arriving in 2006 or so. As far as new hires not wanting to get on the CRJ70, well--they obviously haven't seen one. I think it is a lot nicer than a DC-9. Dalpa has wanted to operate them from day 1, but that hasn't happened. I am sure they could exist side by side with DCI, especially if they are yet again another separate certificate---like Song. There probably wouldn't be that many under that certificate---I am guessing 40 or so---but it would give Delta more flexibility once again. It probably would help ASA with better pay rates, but not by much---this still has to be economical for Delta or they wouldn't do it. And as for one list---sure, as long as it is a staple----no DOH. I hope this is a way to get the furloughs back a little faster, and I like those heavy RJ's.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[rjcap]

I like those heavy RJ's.

Thats a good one Gen Lee !!!!

 

[CatYaaak]

The key point here is that our furloughed pilots MIGHT have a chance to fly again--sooner than later---and not have to beg Comair for a job they won't give them. If this does happen, it will help Delta alittle, and help our furloughed pilots. Sounds good to me.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I think I missed something here...is "applying" for a job now synonymous with "begging"? And it must have been when I was living on Mars when Comair pilots could just mosey on in to Delta HQ, flash their DCI ID badges, and grab a seat in a new-hire class.

But really, the whole thing is just a jobs program to appease the DALPA rank and file, because you aren't going to make money with 70-seaters crewing and handling them at mainline rates. Perhaps it would work if you operated in a vacumn where Competition didn't exist, or better yet, in an Airline Pilot Shangri-La where passengers willingly pay higher prices because they don't want to see you fall behind on your boat payments.

And mainline guys wanting to fly Barbie Jets? Um..ok. That must have been the best-kept mainline secret during my 4 years at regionals, because I never heard that. The sudden change of heart is more accurately described as Archie taking a sudden interest in Betty because Veroinca went off and joined a nunnery.

 

[surplus1]

Something you all don't seem to be considering is the differences between the Delta PWA and the CMR and ASA PWA's.

The pay rates are the least of the problem. What costs reall money is the Delta pilot's relative lack of productivity coupled with their medical and retirement programs.

If the Delta pilots want to keep their work rules, retirement and medical benefits, they would have to go way below the pay scales at CMR and ASA to match the numbers. Perhaps they are willing to do that in order to take this airplane from ASA and CMR.

If they succeed in taking the type either by transferring the current aircraft to their certificate, creating a new certificate and taking all future deliveries plus transferring the current a/c, by simply adding "new" 70-seaters at mainline or any combination of the above, it will NOT improve anything at CMR or ASA. If anything, efforts to keep the aircraft at CMR and ASA would require that both of them "lower" their present book rates to less than whatever the Delta pilots might be willing to do it for.

To put it simply, there is NO WAY that placing the 70-seaters at Delta mainline can benefit ASA and Comair pilots. If you're a Delta pilot, I can't really blame you for pretending that it would. That's to your advantage. It is well known that you have "wanted" to take this airplane from CMR and ASA for a long time. The only thing that has prevent you from doing that is the Company, especially since the "union" is quite will to shaft its "regional" members if it benefits its "mainline" members. If you're an ASA or CMR pilot and you think this would be "good" for you, I suggest you do a lot of coffee smelling.

I would like to see all Delta pilots recalled from furlough. However, if they are recalled to fly CRJ700s, it will be at the expense of ASA and Comair pilots. Don't be gullible enough to think otherwise.

 

[checkessential]

Finally someone with a brain. Those ASA or Comairs pilots with dreams of a list integration, thinking donating -700s might help-keep dreaming. Give away your own job please, not mine! Get involved with your MEC instead.

 

[Palerider957]

What's the deal with "Song," how many furloughed pilots might that employ? It seems this is a much more likely place for the Delta guys then in a 700.

 

[hawkowl88]

ONE LIST, ONE LIST, ONE LIST!!!!

Comair & ASA pilots wake up. You work for Delta at C scale wages. Delta pilots need to wake up and stop putting a loaded gun to their own heads. If you don't get a one list soon--no matter what the cost--you won't have any jobs to call your own except international long haul. Scope is suicidal in this cutthroat economy. If you have this BS artificial scope, the bankrupt carriers and LCC's will clean your clocks. Contract, shmontract. Everything goes in Chapter 11. All three pilot groups can let themselves be played against each other and drive wages into the dirt, or unite and stop the job loss. Their is no difference in skill level between flying an RJ vs. a 777. Go to class, pass the sim, skate through IOE and you're just the same as every other airline pilot working stiff. You guys need to just bury the hatchet--and not in each others backs.

 

[NYRANGERS]

What's the deal with "Song," how many furloughed pilots might that employ? It seems this is a much more likely place for the Delta guys then in a 700.

Read the post about "Song" and you will see how it is structured. Song will not provide more A/.C it will use existing ones allreay in......aw forget it!!

 

[Dieterly]

Their is no difference in skill level between flying an RJ vs. a 777.

That's a good one!!!

 

[checkessential]

No, there is not any difference. Merely a less evovled autoflight system, absence of autothrust (RJ has fadec), and a large weight disparity. If you can fly an RJ, transition to a 777, or any other full glass airplane is a snap. If one truly thinks there is a difference in skill level required, think again. And please don't embarass yourself by making such a childlike suggestion. It makes me question your professional ability. Have you had problems with transition training or what????

 

[embdrvr]

it's not just about us

Let's say mainline gives the 70 seat flying to furloughed mainline guys. How much more money will be spent having the aircraft ground handled by mainline rampers? How much more does mainline mx cost compared to CMR/ASA? What about the effciency of mianline mx having to handle a new airframe? What about all the other costs besides the crew costs that we tend to obsess about?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: it's not just about us

Let's say mainline gives the 70 seat flying to furloughed mainline guys. How much more money will be spent having the aircraft ground handled by mainline rampers? How much more does mainline mx cost compared to CMR/ASA? What about the effciency of mianline mx having to handle a new airframe? What about all the other costs besides the crew costs that we tend to obsess about?

No more money at JFK, DCA, SAT, TOL, or any of the other airports that are already served by Delta ground handlers, or Delta contract people. Also, as we have seen at many airports, Delta simply closes the DL station and re-hires everyone who wants to work for ASA in the same positions. Isn't SHV, BHM, and MOB all places where that has happened? (Could be wrong about the airports, but I'm too tired to research it right now).

Delta MX already works on our airplanes at the TOC.

The crew costs we are so concerned with are about all Delta has to be concerned about, which is what makes this so scary. A dollar is a dollar to Delta and the Delta pilots may well push down on the competitive wage. After all, with the no furlough decision (which was the right decision) Delta has to pay these guys anyway and they might as well fly something for the money (and) Delta management has threatened to displace those pilots who would have been furloughed to the lowest paying equipment and pay them for staying home - so - having one RJ and a negotiated pay rate on the airplane might save Delta a bundle.

Delta management has no allegiance to Connection and they worry more about their mainline pilots beacuse ALPA supports the mainline pilots. To the extent that Delta and ALPA have a common interest, the Connection pilots are completely hosed because our union locks us out of negotiations with Delta and we will learn about anything that happens before we have any opportunity to even participate.

This is the perfect opening for jets for jobs at Delta and the only restraint is the litigation brought forward by the RJDC. It is easy to imagine a deal by which airplanes in excess of the 57 allowed under current scope are flown by mainline and when all the mainline guys are recalled, then Connection gets them - or something like that.

Politically, the ground work has already been laid when the Delta MEC began the PR war against the Comair MEC. Regardless of whether what they were told is the truth, the Delta pilots' frustration has been directed against the Connection pilots, Comair pilots in particular.

It would require 97 additional CRJ700's to execute a deal like that, not counting for mainline retirements. Delta has 400, or so, options remaining with Bombardier.

Disclaimer - all of this is completely ubsubstantiated rumor. I have no information that RJ's are going to mainline - just thinking through the possibility.

 

[CF34-3B1]

So if CL65s wind up at mainline, will there be another PID filed? Seems the "No operational integration" arguement is out the window at that point.