Delta LOA 51

[dtfl]

Why don't you give the shaft to the furloughees and help out the company by picking up some more greenslips.

THANK YOU - WELL PUT - from a furloughee.
Dangelo? Keep your toy airplane flying and your mouth shut.
This TA will do 3 things
1) Eliminate MD88s from Delta property and give them to folks like Dangelo who will fly them for $30 an hour
2) Remove any possibility of us furloughees being called back and even possibly furlough more..
3) create a Delta just like US Air in the 90s and Pan Am in the late 80s. All Intl flying - with a small experience group (the top of the bell curve) that moves along until retirement, creating a huge void of experience.

 

[johnsonrod]

General,

You and I may disagree on many things, but I could at least respect you if you stood by your word. Pathetically, you couldn't even do that. You repeatedly told everyone that you would vote down any TA that included ANY scope over 70 seats. You said that there would be no compromise on this issue. But yet, you voted yes.

This TA maybe sad, but I think you are even more pathetic.

Seriously, you sound like an idiot. The fact is that the TA was never going to be perfect for everyone. There were good and bad aspects to it. If you take a long-term view, then passing this TA, despite some negative issues, was probably the wiser move. Again, the fact that GL can look at an issue, consider the implications and then ultimately change his mind is really not a bad thing. Instead, it shows he can take the facts and then change his mind if a change is warranted or if new information/considerations come to light. You're obviously are too bullheaded to ever consider new input - you sound like a stubborn jacka$$ kid. I respect GL even more because he looked at the facts and the long-term perspective and made a decision vs. just disregarding other outside information or factors like you would.

What's the big deal in terms of 70 vs. 76 seats? Really, you sound way too short sighted. We are not talking about 100 seaters in this case - no way. Six more seats of revenue - BIG DEAL.... Think about the long-term perspective. Jet Blue and USAirways have set the precedent for E190s. 76 seat CR9s are not in the same category - don't confuse the issue.

How much longer would you want this strike drama to play out? Another year or two years of uncertainty? Are you sure that changes would have been made that would have actually benefitted the pilot group during the next 6-12 months of additional delays or even a strike? Yeah, you're absolutely certain - you can predict the future. Hmmmmm. You're a great Monday-morning quarterback...

 

[800Dog]

Seriously, you sound like an idiot. The fact is that the TA was never going to be perfect for everyone. There were good and bad aspects to it. If you take a long-term view, then passing this TA, despite some negative issues, was probably the wiser move. Again, the fact that GL can look at an issue, consider the implications and then ultimately change his mind is really not a bad thing. Instead, it shows he can take the facts and then change his mind if a change is warranted or if new information/considerations come to light. You're obviously are too bullheaded to ever consider new input - you sound like a stubborn jacka$$ kid. I respect GL even more because he looked at the facts and the long-term perspective and made a decision vs. just disregarding other outside information or factors like you would.

What's the big deal in terms of 70 vs. 76 seats? Really, you sound way too short sighted. We are not talking about 100 seaters in this case - no way. Six more seats of revenue - BIG DEAL.... Think about the long-term perspective. Jet Blue and USAirways have set the precedent for E190s. 76 seat CR9s are not in the same category - don't confuse the issue.

How much longer would you want this strike drama to play out? Another year or two years of uncertainty? Are you sure that changes would have been made that would have actually benefitted the pilot group during the next 6-12 months of additional delays or even a strike? Yeah, you're absolutely certain - you can predict the future. Hmmmmm. You're a great Monday-morning quarterback...

How long have you and the General been dating? By the way General, the furloughed pilot I bought beers for tonight would like to be recalled.

 

[800Dog]

Am I not allowed to THINK about it and rationally make a decision? Sure, I talk tough, and I don't think we did that bad at all. I was tough on the 70 seat stance, but as I saw the agreement as a whole, I didn't and don't think it will create a problem. We need first class seats in our larger RJs, and there is still a weight limit that did not change from the last LOA.

To say that our furloughed pilots have been sold out is to say that you know the future. I believe 1 in 4 will accept recall, and we are so short that those 200 or so that would have come back will come back. The others will stay at SW or CAL. Simple as that.

You still didn't admit to changing my post quote. That was uncalled for. People who are desperate do desperate things. Debate me on the facts, and try not to get dirty.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I did not change s***t. I just stated that you probably believe we will get them next time. Read my previous posts on why us no voters voted no. I presented facts and why 39% of us feel the way we do. You will never get it and I will sleep well at night knowing I did not sell out. Will you? I hope you have very few mirrors in your house.

 

[PCL_128]

At the end of the day, 76 seats equals 76 seats of revenue - that's it. We are not talking about 100 seaters - just 76 seats.

15 years ago - "Hey, it's only those little barbie jets. None of us want to fly them anyway, and hey, it's only 50 seats! That's it. We're not talking big airplanes here. Just 50 seats. What harm could come of it?"

5 years ago - "So they want 70 seats, who cares? After all, it's only 20 seats more than we already gave them and we'll limit the number of them they can have. It'll just be a few dozen! Besides, it's still just a barbie jet! We'll let the 'scooter trash' fly them. Just 20 more seats, right?"

2 years ago - "All they want is more 70 seaters. I mean, we already let them fly some of them, so they might as well fly a few more. Who wants to fly a 70 seat jet anyway. Leave it to the 'scooter trash'."

Now - Refer to above quote from johnsonrod

You guys never learn. It's always just a few more seats or a few more airplanes. Eventually, nothing will be left except a few ultra-senior widebody pilots and the rest will be flown by a collection of regionals that are all bidding against each other to be the cheapest feed. I hope you guys like the monster that you created. I should have gone to med school.

 

[737 Pylt]

I did not change s***t. I just stated that you probably believe we will get them next time. Read my previous posts on why us no voters voted no. I presented facts and why 39% of us feel the way we do. You will never get it and I will sleep well at night knowing I did not sell out. Will you? I hope you have very few mirrors in your house.

Well said 800 Dog!
737
NO VOTER!!!!!!!!

 

[General Lee]

How long have you and the General been dating? By the way General, the furloughed pilot I bought beers for tonight would like to be recalled.

I bet he will soon. And no, I am not dating that person. Instead of verbal attacks, why don't you debate the issues. Tell me again the reason we will give them larger EMBs, even though other airlines will have them at their own mainlines. And do you think more than 1 in 4 will accept recall? I think about 200 will want to come back, and I think we are short right now. Give me your reasoning.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[azpilot]

You are what is wrong in aviation.
I hope you lose your medical very soon

Now that is funny! And I will add.... And I hope you don't have loss of medical insurance. TOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Said day at Delta. The slide continues.

 

[General Lee]

15 years ago - "Hey, it's only those little barbie jets. None of us want to fly them anyway, and hey, it's only 50 seats! That's it. We're not talking big airplanes here. Just 50 seats. What harm could come of it?"

5 years ago - "So they want 70 seats, who cares? After all, it's only 20 seats more than we already gave them and we'll limit the number of them they can have. It'll just be a few dozen! Besides, it's still just a barbie jet! We'll let the 'scooter trash' fly them. Just 20 more seats, right?"

2 years ago - "All they want is more 70 seaters. I mean, we already let them fly some of them, so they might as well fly a few more. Who wants to fly a 70 seat jet anyway. Leave it to the 'scooter trash'."

Now - Refer to above quote from johnsonrod

You guys never learn. It's always just a few more seats or a few more airplanes. Eventually, nothing will be left except a few ultra-senior widebody pilots and the rest will be flown by a collection of regionals that are all bidding against each other to be the cheapest feed. I hope you guys like the monster that you created. I should have gone to med school.

I don't know about you, but those numbers seem to be getting smaller. From turbo props to 50 seat jets, then jump 20 seat to 70 seat jets, and then jump to 76 seat jets at DL. (only USAir allows 86 seats at their regionals thanks to a prior agreement with AWA and Mesa, and they just took the EMB 190s away from CHQ for themselves). The 100 seat market will be dominated by mainlines, and then the 86 seat market will become obsolete, with 76 seaters being the next step down for most airlines. Name another Major that allows anything over 76 seats at their regionals? NW allows 75 seaters, and DL wanted 79 seaters for DCI, but got 76 seaters.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Now that is funny! And I will add.... And I hope you don't have loss of medical insurance. TOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Said day at Delta. The slide continues.

Please explain why the slide continues. You have nothing because you don't know the TA. You are trying to join the bandwagon because it is fun. Loser.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

I don't know about you, but those numbers seem to be getting smaller. From turbo props to 50 seat jets, then jump 20 seat to 70 seat jets, and then jump to 76 seat jets at DL. (only USAir allows 86 seats at their regionals thanks to a prior agreement with AWA and Mesa, and they just took the EMB 190s away from CHQ for themselves). The 100 seat market will be dominated by mainlines, and then the 86 seat market will become obsolete, with 76 seaters being the next step down for most airlines. Name another Major that allows anything over 76 seats at their regionals? NW allows 75 seaters, and DL wanted 79 seaters for DCI, but got 76 seaters.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I wish I could be as optimistic as you General, but I have this pesky tendency to actually learn from history. History shows that if you give them an inch, then they'll want a foot, and then a yard, and eventually a mile. You've shown management that you're weak, and they'll be back for more because of it.

 

[General Lee]

I wish I could be as optimistic as you General, but I have this pesky tendency to actually learn from history. History shows that if you give them an inch, then they'll want a foot, and then a yard, and eventually a mile. You've shown management that you're weak, and they'll be back for more because of it.

They can't come back for more without risking another BK filing. Do you really think they would do that again, with our current credit situation? We have none. You can't just go into BK to change one union's contract again. We have a clause restricting the use of the 1113c process, and the only way to ask for anything else has many qualifiers that only would happen with another 9-11. If that is the case, we are all in trouble again. Also, we have a no force mejeur clause for expanding the seats on the RJs. That means even in time of crisis, like an Iran War, they can't just add more seats. Nope.

The only other airline to go BK twice in a row was USAir, and they really didn't have a plan then. AWA saved their bacon, and their leader (parker) is a lot like our future leader, Whitehurst.

The history you talk about with DL contained our old management (including Grinstein). I think he will be gone shortly, and the rest of them are already gone. They are history.(Leo Mullin, Fred Greed, Michele Burns, Vicki Escara--all gone now)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pipejockey]

Pipe,
Like they really had a choice in the matter over the long term. You need to be realistic - instead, it is easy for you play commentator and criticize others' decisions that will impact them far more than you.

Yes, lets be realistic! I am now looking at your payrates from the contract signed on 5/1/96. A senior (12 yr.) 737 Cpt. was earning $148 an hour now its $134. And I am taking the current rates from the airline pilot central website which may not contain the cuts yet. A 12 year 757 Cpt. in 96 was earning $177 an hour now its $155. I wish I could find the payrates from the contract before the one signed in 96. I would assume around 1992 or so, and I bet you were paid more nearly 20 years ago, dollar for dollar, not even considering the cost of living increases that occur year over year. It's not just Delta it's everyone who is folding and turning this profession into another run of the mill job.

Even SWA's rate was $140 an hour based on a contract signed 8/31/94..12 years ago!! Even they were paid more than you guys are now.

So, tell me how you would have changed the TA in the possible face of liquidation and unhelpful arbitrators unwilling to necessarily take a side in the matter?

Considering every house in the neighborhood is burning down all around you, I don't know. What really needs to be addressed is how to turn a profit. People are flying in record numbers and load factors are higher than ever before, and we are continuing to take concessions in this profession! Why?? If the airlines can't make money in the best of times..(now) they never will be able to.

From what I have been told, DALPA had already allowed the 86,000 lbs weight limit for regional jets (includes the CR9). At the end of the day, 76 seats equals 76 seats of revenue - that's it. We are not talking about 100 seaters - just 76 seats.

And here in lies a majority of the problem. The disease which permeates this industry which is the RJ was allowed to run rampant from the start. And guess who started it? You mainline boys were too good for those jets and wouldn't have anyone from your list fly those toys huh? Every mainline pilot group had the power when these things were first coming out to fly them yourselves. It was the mid to late 90s and most companies were earning money hand over fist giving you the power. How could you all not know that your flying would ultimately be outsourced. Just consider all the routes that were flown by the F100, DC9, 727, 737, that are now exclusively RJ and will never go back to mainline. Sure the military boys might not like going to the RJ when getting on with AA, DAL, UAL, and the rest, but they would be on the seniority list of a career airline and in a few years they could be flying the narrowbodies. I don't think any of us purely civilian guys would have a problem with that.

People need to look at the bigger picture and not get so emotional.

Yes, the bigger picture was clear in 1993, but I won't rehash what I just said. This all reminds me of the when Gen. Sherman of the union army proceeded to burn Atlanta and the rest of the south to the ground. With airline management being the Union and we as pilots being the rebels beaten back into submission and never being heard from again.

 

[Bringupthebird]

So DALPA thinks it can sign a concessionary agreement in a vacuum? By lowering the bar, they have greased the rails for every airline behind them that must squeeze concessions or be tarred with the "highest cost" label. So suppose it becomes USAirways turn and their pilots agree to turn over the EMB's to Mesa in exchange for a little money or some insurance. How long do you think it will be before DAL sees that and calls up old Skywest with a deal they can't refuse? If you can't hold the line during a rare and dramatic upswing in the US airline industry, when can you?

It's ironic that so close to a holiday reserved to honor the bravest among us, the cowards carry the day at DAL.

 

[hammer2]

You are what is wrong in aviation.
I hope you lose your medical very soon

WOW!
If you are a Delta pilot and you still have a job, you were a little harsh there ghost rider. I bet the guys at Delta still make more than a fractional pilot. I would be ticked if I was going to be furloughed and, or taking a pay cut, but give the newbee a break, he's not in your world yet.

 

[clickclickboom]

Jumpseats

I wonder how long it would take if we researched your family tree and found some sort of inbreeding, you jerk!
737
NO VOTER!

DOES THE NEW TA ADDRESS THE JUMPSEAT ISSUE ???

 

[Gorilla]

Delta guys, here's how it's going to work...

At AA, we ratified what we thought was a steaming turd a while back. When everyone went back to work, the conversation at the start of a trip was "Hi I'm Joe, married, 2 kids, live in smallburg, DID YOU VOTE YES OR NO?" The really funny part is that everyone seemed to have voted NO. For months we whined and moaned about the bad, concessionary contract. "How could ANYONE have voted yes on this dog?"

Then, the emotions diminished, we found that the bad contract actually seemed to help the bottom line, and we stopped grumbling.

Life goes on; plan for the next contract, and most importantly, hope to h3ll your management makes wise use of your money to improve the situation overall.

Good luck guys. Keep your eyes on the prize - a restoration of this profession probably not to pre-911 days, but at least to a level where you are proud to do what you do, and reasonably comfortable in your lifestyle.

And oh yes, get the wife out the door to find a job.

 

[Ready2Fly]

Yes, lets be realistic! I am now looking at your payrates from the contract signed on 5/1/96. A senior (12 yr.) 737 Cpt. was earning $148 an hour now its $134. And I am taking the current rates from the airline pilot central website which may not contain the cuts yet. A 12 year 757 Cpt. in 96 was earning $177 an hour now its $155. I wish I could find the payrates from the contract before the one signed in 96. I would assume around 1992 or so, and I bet you were paid more nearly 20 years ago, dollar for dollar, not even considering the cost of living increases that occur year over year. It's not just Delta it's everyone who is folding and turning this profession into another run of the mill job.

Even SWA's rate was $140 an hour based on a contract signed 8/31/94..12 years ago!! Even they were paid more than you guys are now.



Considering every house in the neighborhood is burning down all around you, I don't know. What really needs to be addressed is how to turn a profit. People are flying in record numbers and load factors are higher than ever before, and we are continuing to take concessions in this profession! Why?? If the airlines can't make money in the best of times..(now) they never will be able to.



And here in lies a majority of the problem. The disease which permeates this industry which is the RJ was allowed to run rampant from the start. And guess who started it? You mainline boys were too good for those jets and wouldn't have anyone from your list fly those toys huh? Every mainline pilot group had the power when these things were first coming out to fly them yourselves. It was the mid to late 90s and most companies were earning money hand over fist giving you the power. How could you all not know that your flying would ultimately be outsourced. Just consider all the routes that were flown by the F100, DC9, 727, 737, that are now exclusively RJ and will never go back to mainline. Sure the military boys might not like going to the RJ when getting on with AA, DAL, UAL, and the rest, but they would be on the seniority list of a career airline and in a few years they could be flying the narrowbodies. I don't think any of us purely civilian guys would have a problem with that.





Yes, the bigger picture was clear in 1993, but I won't rehash what I just said. This all reminds me of the when Gen. Sherman of the union army proceeded to burn Atlanta and the rest of the south to the ground. With airline management being the Union and we as pilots being the rebels beaten back into submission and never being heard from again.

Like you have any say in the matter.

 

[Ready2Fly]

DOES THE NEW TA ADDRESS THE JUMPSEAT ISSUE ???

Ah yes. Finally we get down to the important issues!

 

[abxaviator]

An article in the Cincy Enquirer reports that a side agreement was reached with the retired pilots wherein they get $650M to drop their objections. Is this separate from what the active pilots are due if the pension is terminated? Anybody know anyhting about an agreement with the retired pilots?