Delta LOA 51

[Benjamin Dover]

It's been hard times at DAL lately, so I really needed a good laugh to take the edge off. Who is this Pipejockey guy? He kills me - what a riot!! Glad he's got it all figured out for us. While he's checking out old contracts, hope he can dig up old Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, Braniff, et. al payrates of old compared to today's rates.

Pipesmoker, our contract sucks. I voted against it b/c it means even more of our flying goes to the "toy jet" as you called it and even more years for upgrade. But, we lost, we'll deal with it. Also as an industry means even longer for you in the ditch or the CL-65.

You are correct in the erosion of this profession, but I must have missed your solution. By the way, I am quite sure SWA pilots could give a sh*t about your analysis of their 1994 wages. With a bit of research you could estimate their increase in net worth solely due to profit sharing and stock options since this time. Most sane people elsewhere would gladly turn back the clock and take the SWA rate of return compared to their own during this time.

Appreciate the levity P-Jockey.

Ben

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Your airline doesn't need to go into bankruptcy again, it can stay there indefinitely and continue to dream up one crisis after another that will require more pilot's money. And should they ever decide to leave the cozy confines of BK, they can hammer you at the negotiating table when they look at every other pilot group caving in because of what the cowards of DAL have wrought. Market rates? Industry standard? Your best years are behind you.

Leverage? The DAL pilots had tremendous leverage with an airline industry on the verge of a huge upward turnaround, DAL would never stand for a strike. Your negotiated solution would have been a fraction of what you ended up accepting and you would have affirmed the strength of ALPA to boot. All would add to the rising tide lifting all boats. But it would have taken some real courage to take that risk.

It takes more courage to protect a profession than it does to protect a ski boat.

I still can't believe that 60% of the DAL pilots agreed with management that they were overpaid and underworked.

Uh, Birdman - been out of the country since the USAIR, UAL, NWA bankruptcy concessions - or the AA pre-BK deal? Yeah our deal sucks, but Delta is hardly the trend setter. I thought we had some good mo' going against it, but a 12-1 MEC vote swayed a lot of dudes.

Sounds like you're a great guy though, looking out for all us junior guys with the age 60 thing - TIC

Ben

 

[GogglesPisano]

Personally it doesn't look that bad to me. No further paycuts. Look at airlinepilotcentral.com and you will see DL's pay is competetive with the other legacies, and is in fact considerably higher in the first few years' longevity.

 

[pipejockey]

Who is this Pipejockey guy?

Thats funny, I was thinking the very same about you! What with your 19 posts and all:laugh:.

Pipesmoker, our contract sucks.

You said it! And were you trying to insult me with your name calling? I actually enjoy a nice smoke from my pipe, or a good cigar. It keeps the mosquitos away while I am fishing.

By the way, I am quite sure SWA pilots could give a sh*t about your analysis of their 1994 wages.

What are you talking about? That "analysis" you call it, which gives me far too much credit, but thanks anyway, was only meant to point out that not only DAL, but CAL, NWA, UAL, and US pilots are all earning less today than SWA pilots did in 1994 when they were still the booby prize for pilots looking to get on with a major.

Appreciate the levity P-Jockey.

Ben

Sure glad I could help. I know you must need some levity when comparing the 2001 contract to this current POS.

What I DON'T appreciate is professional aviators selling my profession short and leaving it in a shambles for me for the next 30 years. Thanks all!

 

[PCL_128]

Are the financials all fake?

Yep. Pretty much.

 

[General Lee]

Hey Pipe,

I can't wait for you alone to turn this whole industry around. That will be great.... Get crackin..... You can do it.... echo echo...... hello? hello?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Yep. Pretty much.

So, we shouldn't be in BK at all? I know that there are plenty of one time charges out there, but you are saying we shouldn't even be in BK? Really? Why didn't you show your proof to ALPA? Did you know 9-11 was going to happen before it did? Why didn't you alert someone?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[pipejockey]

Hey Pipe,

I can't wait for you alone to turn this whole industry around. That will be great.... Get crackin..... You can do it.... echo echo...... hello? hello?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah it's ashame isn't it? There won't be any industry left for me after you all are done with it. Management will be having us coming to work with a beannie on and being paid in candy bars for compensation

 

[General Lee]

Yeah it's ashame isn't it? There won't be any industry left for me after you all are done with it. Management will be having us coming to work with a beannie on and being paid in candy bars for compensation

Yeah, but I will be getting a $100,000 dollar bar, while you get a snickers. But keep working on it, maybe you will make a difference.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lear70]

Personally it doesn't look that bad to me. No further paycuts. Look at airlinepilotcentral.com and you will see DL's pay is competetive with the other legacies, and is in fact considerably higher in the first few years' longevity.

Hmmm... why don't you take a look at the existing seniority list and tell me how many pilots still on property are in "the first few years' longevity".

Easy for the company to give up what they don't have to pay.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I really don't know whether this TA was a good one or not for "the industry" as a whole, but I do know this:

It has apparently caused PCL128 to slurp his panties completely up into his colon, and caused him to arrogantly launch a diatribe against thousands of pilots who he feels so much smarter than.

Pilots who:

Defended our country during the cold war and real wars.

Flew for years in crappy regional turboprops after needing 2000 hours just to be a metroliner FO.

Flew cargo in junky little piston aircraft before finally getting a chance to fly junky tuboprops and then finally getting the shot a DAL.



And now this arrogant little twerp decides to pontificate to these career professionals how foolish they are? Come one.

He may dress up his contempt for them as "concern" for their "worth" but we all know the truth.



PCL cut in line, paid for it on top of that, yet refused to atone for his offense by leaving that position and going back to earn it the REAL and RIGHT way. It's like someone who steals, gets caught, then apologizes but refuses to return the stolen goods because they are just too greedy.

 

[michael707767]

Am I not allowed to THINK about it and rationally make a decision? Sure, I talk tough, and I don't think we did that bad at all. I was tough on the 70 seat stance, but as I saw the agreement as a whole, I didn't and don't think it will create a problem. We need first class seats in our larger RJs, and there is still a weight limit that did not change from the last LOA.

actually, the weight limit did go up a little, from 85K to 86K. This added the longer range E-175 as an option.

 

[michael707767]

You guys never learn. It's always just a few more seats or a few more airplanes. Eventually, nothing will be left except a few ultra-senior widebody pilots and the rest will be flown by a collection of regionals that are all bidding against each other to be the cheapest feed. I hope you guys like the monster that you created. I should have gone to med school.

I learned. Voted no to LOA 46 because it changed the wording from certified for 70 seats to configured for 70 seats. Voted no for this one cause it added six seats and raised the weight limit.

You are right, it will always be a few more seats or a few more airplanes. Now that a 76 (really 90) seater can be flown, I have no doubt the first thing to go will the any limit on their numbers.

Our pilot group collectively is a bunch of fools and deserve what will happen to them. I just feel sorry for the junior pilots and the guys on furlough. They are screwed.

 

[michael707767]

So DALPA thinks it can sign a concessionary agreement in a vacuum? By lowering the bar, they have greased the rails for every airline behind them that must squeeze concessions or be tarred with the "highest cost" label. .

as bad as I think this deal is, you are way off their. Despite being a very concessionary contract, this new deal did not lower the bar. We are still not the lowest paid, nor the worst work rules, nor the worst scope.

Having said that, this deal sucks.

 

[johnsonrod]

I learned. Voted no to LOA 46 because it changed the wording from certified for 70 seats to configured for 70 seats. Voted no for this one cause it added six seats and raised the weight limit.

You are right, it will always be a few more seats or a few more airplanes. Now that a 76 (really 90) seater can be flown, I have no doubt the first thing to go will the any limit on their numbers.

Our pilot group collectively is a bunch of fools and deserve what will happen to them. I just feel sorry for the junior pilots and the guys on furlough. They are screwed.

If you haven't noticed, your pilot group and airline are in bankruptcy... This deal was probably the best you would have gotten, and overall it really wasn't a terrible TA - it certainly could have been worse... In my opinion, your pilot group chose correctly given the circumstances ($20+ billion in debt, high costs relative to direct competitors, etc.). Fortunately, DAL revenue is on the way up and mainline sized aircraft will need to be acquired so that increased revenue (with the extra seats) can help to pay off DAL's huge debt load over the long term.

 

[DL_Infidel]

Hey michael,

Haven't you noticed, we're in bankruptcy....best we could hope to do in this environment. TIC

 

[Bringupthebird]

. Fortunately, DAL revenue is on the way up and mainline sized aircraft will need to be acquired so that increased revenue (with the extra seats) can help to pay off DAL's huge debt load over the long term.

Acquired with what? More debt.

The pilots bought the RJ's, they paid for Song, and now they're going to buy the company some new airplanes. How many more golden eggs you got in that goose?

 

[rudderdog]

Well, at least the AA guys finally got their "Delta + 1%" pay rates that they turned down 5 years ago. And without the baseball style arbitration. Very clever.

 

[JohnDoe]

Just came accross this, not sure if it's true or not (and if it's been posted here already.....too bad, don't read it):


The Associated Press

PARIS (AP) - Delta Air Lines Inc. will file a request to terminate its
pilots' defined benefit pension plan "fairly soon," Chief Executive Gerald
Grinstein said in an interview Friday in which he also talked about employee
pay cuts, his future and whether a merger is a good idea.

Grinstein, in Paris for a meeting with other executives, told The Associated
Press that the Atlanta-based airline is in talks with the United States'
pension insurer about the pilots' pension.
Asked when the company planned to seek termination of the pension, Grinstein
said, "It'll be probably fairly soon."

He said the third-largest airline in the U.S. is keeping the pilots' union
informed about the discussions with the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.
"We've got a judicial schedule to conform to," he said. "All of those are
pieces in motion, but it'll be fairly soon."

It was the first time a Delta executive has said for sure that the airline
plans to terminate the pilots' pension. In the past, the company has said
only that it would likely seek termination.
Grinstein also said that Delta has no plans to ask its pilots for a third
pay cut, and he dismissed the idea, at least for now, that the bankrupt
company could merge with another carrier.
Grinstein said the $280-million-a-year concessions agreement that pilots and
the bankruptcy court approved Wednesday gives the airline the cost cuts it
needs.

"I don't expect to go back to the pilots," Grinstein said. "We have all our
people at the market rate. We are going to have to be more efficient both in
the way we operate the airline but also in what can be recouped in revenue
management, handling the network and utilization of our equipment."

The airline's chief financial officer, Edward Bastian, had been noncommittal
when asked in March by AP whether the company might seek a third pay cut
from pilots.

 

[D'Angelo]

Acquired with what? More debt.

The pilots bought the RJ's, they paid for Song, and now they're going to buy the company some new airplanes. How many more golden eggs you got in that goose?

why do you want pilots to lose their job so badly?

 

[GCAP]

Assess this you dope. The DAL pilots just financed their own acquisition or merger, which will result in their own number of excess pilots. No, I repeat, no good will come of this LOA. Extending DAL's life, rebuilding the company? For who? A bunch of no-balls, roll over and take it pussies who will believe anything as long as they don't have to stand up on their own two legs? This company is surviving to make a small handful of people very rich and will continue because the DAL pilots have shown their willingness to give. It will continue in many forms, but things will never get any better. You've seen to that. The present bunch of pilots thought that half a loaf is better than none. There is a new group ready to sell YOU out , because they think a third of a loaf is better than none.

 

[acarpe3448]

Hey GCAP!

Take a chill pill! Calm down and have a drink! I have not seen a single pilot group post 9-11 stand up and be that hero you seem to think that you are! This agreement sucks, but our second and third incomes may help a bit! Now if we can just keep the price of oil over $70 for a few more years I'll have that retirement!

 

[JohnQ]

Assess this you dope. The DAL pilots just financed their own acquisition or merger, which will result in their own number of excess pilots. No, I repeat, no good will come of this LOA. Extending DAL's life, rebuilding the company? For who? A bunch of no-balls, roll over and take it pussies who will believe anything as long as they don't have to stand up on their own two legs? This company is surviving to make a small handful of people very rich and will continue because the DAL pilots have shown their willingness to give. It will continue in many forms, but things will never get any better. You've seen to that. The present bunch of pilots thought that half a loaf is better than none. There is a new group ready to sell YOU out , because they think a third of a loaf is better than none.

Whew! Now I will lose sleep wondering what "GCAP" on some brain-dead anonymous forum thinks.

 

[G4dude]

Assess this you dope. The DAL pilots just financed their own acquisition or merger, which will result in their own number of excess pilots. No, I repeat, no good will come of this LOA. Extending DAL's life, rebuilding the company? For who? A bunch of no-balls, roll over and take it pussies who will believe anything as long as they don't have to stand up on their own two legs? This company is surviving to make a small handful of people very rich and will continue because the DAL pilots have shown their willingness to give. It will continue in many forms, but things will never get any better. You've seen to that. The present bunch of pilots thought that half a loaf is better than none. There is a new group ready to sell YOU out , because they think a third of a loaf is better than none.

Memo from Earth: A third of a loaf IS better than none.

 

[D'Angelo]

Assess this you dope. The DAL pilots just financed their own acquisition or merger, which will result in their own number of excess pilots. No, I repeat, no good will come of this LOA. Extending DAL's life, rebuilding the company? For who? A bunch of no-balls, roll over and take it pussies who will believe anything as long as they don't have to stand up on their own two legs? This company is surviving to make a small handful of people very rich and will continue because the DAL pilots have shown their willingness to give. It will continue in many forms, but things will never get any better. You've seen to that. The present bunch of pilots thought that half a loaf is better than none. There is a new group ready to sell YOU out , because they think a third of a loaf is better than none.

Quit whining. Your the one that is a wuss. You sit there and moan and complain wanting SOMEONE ELSE to take the fall for you. Thats right you don't want to take the fall you want someone else to make your own life easier for you. Tough! Suck it up and be a man. The majority ruled its really that simple. Your the type that wants unions to be like a dictatorship not a democracy.