Delta LOA 51

[D'Angelo]

thats only for the first year. First year is always rought and it looks like more than 10k/year to me. Why lead everyone to the slaughter? If your ready to "shut it down" then surely your ready to quit as well. That way those who dont want the cut can do whatever they wish, those who wish to save their jobs have the chance to do so. Its a win win.

 

[D'Angelo]

so sad!!!!uke:

dont worry mark the delta pilots still come out smelling like roses, jobs intact and all.

 

[av8n]

It wasn't a POS. There were some points that were a bit rough, but overall it was not too bad at all.


Not too bad at all , WTFO?

1. Bent over on Scope (where did we hear nothing larger than a 70 seaters)?
2. The furloughees are scr*wed again. They were to be called back on June
1, 2006 by a previous TA. Now - completely gutted - no call back date
ever! They have already been out for over 4 1/2 years.
3. PLANNED default on the pension plan - go to another plan (PBGC) which
already is in trouble. One bad decision after another.


A lot of emotion was out there, and the nay sayers couldn't really come up with what they would change on the TA. General Lee

Why don't you give the shaft to the furloughees and help out the company by picking up some more greenslips.

 

[General Lee]

Why don't you give the shaft to the furloughees and help out the company by picking up some more greenslips.

Say what? I don't greenslip at all, because that would take valuable time away from Flightinfo.com. Don't be mad that the majority of the voters saw the light. To say that we could get more by voting this down is ridiculous. To say that our furloughed pilots got screwed is ridiculous. Those guys will get call backs, but no more than 1 in 4 will come back---think about it. And, being an MD88 FO, you probably know about the shortage you guys have, especially here in ATL. As far as "nothing larger than 70 seats"--yeah, I did hear that, and I actually said that a lot too. But, when you look at the agreement and could see that we already allowed them RJs up to 86,000 lbs in the last agreement, they would have gotten those larger RJs with just 70 seats, and then they would have been unprofitable. Will those extra 6 first class seats mean anything? Yes, to the tune of $90 million a year in extra revenue, that we need. Could we have just bought those 76 seaters and done it ourselves? I don't think so. We would have had to establish another B scale for flight attendants and mechanics, along with low pay for the FOs on those birds. Plus, we would have had to buy those 76 seaters, giving us less money to buy larger planes that do bring in more revenue than 76 seaters. April revenue shot up 14%, and that will go up for the Summer too. To help pay off the remainder of our debt out of BK, we need to make as much revenue as we can, and 76 seaters won't do it. To say that DCI will get larger is ridiculous, because nobody or nothing can allow that--this agreement has a no force mejeur clause for increasing the size of the RJs. And if you think otherwise, then watch out for those black helicopters flying over your house at night, spying on you.....

Please tell me and show me where I am wrong. (try not to say "history shows" because most of our management that put us here ARE history)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Rogue5]

In case any of you are confused as to how this could happen, especially when Jen Lee repeatedly assured us he and 50.1% of his buddies would certainly vote this down, see the strength of his convictions and backbone below from the Regionals forum:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1013904#post1013904

Yes, in the end I took the emotion out of it and looked at the deal. I saw that the people who may want to come back (estimated at 1 in 4) will probably come back (we are very short in a few categories). The scope deal was not bad, and the extra seats will allow for more revenue, and yet at the same time we established 100 seat rates. The pension replacement will be good for most, and the work rules were not touched. We get some automatic raises and a chance for even larger ones. The contract length is short, and overall it is better than most other TAs. YES, I voted Yes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Amazing...

 

[800Dog]

It wasn't a POS. There were some points that were a bit rough, but overall it was not too bad at all. A lot of emotion was out there, and the nay sayers couldn't really come up with what they would change on the TA. Most were mad at management, and most of the management left or is in the process.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
I am a naysayer. Voted no once again. Here is what I would have changed with the TA.

1. Left the sick leave policy alone. We work in a different environment than most and have physical requirements placed on us that most workers do not have. The new sick leave policy is punitive and unnecessary.

2. Scope. As many ALPA reps stated a over the past several months, "anything over 70 seats will be flown by Delta pilots". Line in the sand and all. They will be back wanting DCI to fly larger EMB jets. Just watch.

3. Retirement. A 9% DC is not enough. We should be in the 10-12% range considering what we have given up. The PBGC is after the 650/2.1 and we will see pennies on the dollar if anything. We do not even know how this $$ will be allocated.

You make statements on this board as to how the Delta pilots will not bend on this or bend on that and every time the Delta pilots fold. You then post saying things are not as bad as they seem. This TA is a POS. No way around it.

 

[PCL_128]

As far as "nothing larger than 70 seats"--yeah, I did hear that, and I actually said that a lot too. But, when you look at the agreement and could see that we already allowed them RJs up to 86,000 lbs in the last agreement, they would have gotten those larger RJs with just 70 seats, and then they would have been unprofitable. Will those extra 6 first class seats mean anything? Yes, to the tune of $90 million a year in extra revenue, that we need. Could we have just bought those 76 seaters and done it ourselves? I don't think so. We would have had to establish another B scale for flight attendants and mechanics, along with low pay for the FOs on those birds. Plus, we would have had to buy those 76 seaters, giving us less money to buy larger planes that do bring in more revenue than 76 seaters. April revenue shot up 14%, and that will go up for the Summer too. To help pay off the remainder of our debt out of BK, we need to make as much revenue as we can, and 76 seaters won't do it. To say that DCI will get larger is ridiculous, because nobody or nothing can allow that--this agreement has a no force mejeur clause for increasing the size of the RJs. And if you think otherwise, then watch out for those black helicopters flying over your house at night, spying on you.....

Sigh.... Mainline pilots never learn. For two decades you guys have been giving flying away, and everytime you rationalize it with this kind of crap. Don't you get it? In a year they'll be back for 86-seat flying, and then 90-seaters, and then 100-seaters, and on and on and on. It never ends until you cowards stop giving it away so easily. This was the chance to draw the line in the sand and say "enough is enough." Instead, you've sent exactly the wrong message to airline management all over the country. Good job, General.

 

[General Lee]

General,
I am a naysayer. Voted no once again. Here is what I would have changed with the TA.

1. Left the sick leave policy alone. We work in a different environment than most and have physical requirements placed on us that most workers do not have. The new sick leave policy is punitive and unnecessary.

2. Scope. As many ALPA reps stated a over the past several months, "anything over 70 seats will be flown by Delta pilots". Line in the sand and all. They will be back wanting DCI to fly larger EMB jets. Just watch.

3. Retirement. A 9% DC is not enough. We should be in the 10-12% range considering what we have given up. The PBGC is after the 650/2.1 and we will see pennies on the dollar if anything. We do not even know how this $$ will be allocated.

You make statements on this board as to how the Delta pilots will not bend on this or bend on that and every time the Delta pilots fold. You then post saying things are not as bad as they seem. This TA is a POS. No way around it.

Coming back for larger EMBs? When our contract ends in 3 or 4 years, do you know how many MAINLINE E190s will be flying out there? USAir will have 50, Jetblue will have over 50, and Air Canada will being flying them all over the states from Canada. Do you really think we will give them up? No way. They can ask, but they will be looking at all of the mainline ones flying around at the same time. Wrong. They can ask all they want, but the other airlines flying them will show them it is a mainline plane.

Retirement is not that bad, since we still have the 2% match on the 401K, along with the 9%, and then add the part from the $650 million note and any part of your $70,000 (equity share) that you want to throw in there (you can put it in savings after taxes and add each year afterwards to your 401K to the max). You can choose what you want to do with your share in equity.

Sick leave policy. If you don't abuse it, 240 hours a year is fine. If you break your leg, 4 months should be enough. Don't ski double black diamonds.


Overall, it wasn't that bad, and we can always try to chip away at it again when we start the 1-2 years of negotiating in 3.5 years.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[GCAP]

This is great news for newbies like me. It means that DAL will be around for the long term so that I can hopefully be a Delta professional someday.

You are what is wrong in aviation.
I hope you lose your medical very soon

 

[GCAP]

Coming back for larger EMBs? When our contract ends in 3 or 4 years, do you know how many MAINLINE E190s will be flying out there? USAir will have 50, Jetblue will have over 50, and Air Canada will being flying them all over the states from Canada. Do you really think we will give them up? No way. They can ask, but they will be looking at all of the mainline ones flying around at the same time. Wrong. They can ask all they want, but the other airlines flying them will show them it is a mainline plane.

Retirement is not that bad, since we still have the 2% match on the 401K, along with the 9%, and then add the part from the $650 million note and any part of your $70,000 (equity share) that you want to throw in there (you can put it in savings after taxes and add each year afterwards to your 401K to the max). You can choose what you want to do with your share in equity.

Sick leave policy. If you don't abuse it, 240 hours a year is fine. If you break your leg, 4 months should be enough. Don't ski double black diamonds.


Overall, it wasn't that bad, and we can always try to chip away at it again when we start the 1-2 years of negotiating in 3.5 years.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Let me add....You ,also, are what is wrong with aviation. I never thought that I would be ashamed to be a Delta who..oops I mean pilot.
Thank God I won't be around for the next round of kneeling.

 

[conman]

Sigh.... Mainline pilots never learn. For two decades you guys have been giving flying away, and everytime you rationalize it with this kind of crap. Don't you get it? In a year they'll be back for 86-seat flying, and then 90-seaters, and then 100-seaters, and on and on and on. It never ends until you cowards stop giving it away so easily. This was the chance to draw the line in the sand and say "enough is enough." Instead, you've sent exactly the wrong message to airline management all over the country. Good job, General.

PCL 128,

You are exactly correct sir!!!!! Your analysis is dead on.

 

[General Lee]

Sigh.... Mainline pilots never learn. For two decades you guys have been giving flying away, and everytime you rationalize it with this kind of crap. Don't you get it? In a year they'll be back for 86-seat flying, and then 90-seaters, and then 100-seaters, and on and on and on. It never ends until you cowards stop giving it away so easily. This was the chance to draw the line in the sand and say "enough is enough." Instead, you've sent exactly the wrong message to airline management all over the country. Good job, General.

In a year they will be back for 86 seats? They will? How? They cannot change anything on the size of RJs (non force mejeurable), and they cannot refile another 1113c unless the DIP financing is at risk (there are other qualifiers that have to be met, and that would only happen if the whole industry is falling apart again, thanks to another 9-11 etc). We needed to add first class seats to our 70 seaters, and we have qualifiers that will make them return the 6 first class seats (it has to be those seats) which will cost them up to $90 million a year. Would that tempt them to furlough? I doubt it. We established rates for anyting over 76 seats, and other airlines are currently getting mainline EMBs, which establishes precedence too. If you want to place blame on who started this slide to 75 or 76 seats, blame NW. Regardless, we needed the first class on our RJs, and additional revenue will help. They can ask all they want, but that doesn't mean we will change anything else, and watching the USAir mainline E190 taxi by us will remind everyone that it is NOT a regional airline plane.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Sigh.... Mainline pilots never learn. For two decades you guys have been giving flying away, and everytime you rationalize it with this kind of crap. Don't you get it? In a year they'll be back for 86-seat flying, and then 90-seaters, and then 100-seaters, and on and on and on. It never ends until you cowards stop giving it away so easily. This was the chance to draw the line in the sand and say "enough is enough." Instead, you've sent exactly the wrong message to airline management all over the country. Good job, General.

PCL 128,

You are exactly correct sir!!!!! Your analysis is dead on.

You need to read the TA. They can ask all they want, but that means nothing.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

Coming back for larger EMBs? When our contract ends in 3 or 4 years, do you know how many MAINLINE E190s will be flying out there? USAir will have 50, Jetblue will have over 50, and Air Canada will being flying them all over the states from Canada. Do you really think we will give them up? No way. They can ask, but they will be looking at all of the mainline ones flying around at the same time. Wrong. They can ask all they want, but the other airlines flying them will show them it is a mainline plane.



I am sure we will hold the line next time.

Retirement is not that bad, since we still have the 2% match on the 401K, along with the 9%, and then add the part from the $650 million note and any part of your $70,000 (equity share) that you want to throw in there (you can put it in savings after taxes and add each year afterwards to your 401K to the max). You can choose what you want to do with your share in equity.


Retirement stinks considering what we have given up. We will see pennies on the dollar of the 650/2.1 if any. How will it be divided?

Sick leave policy. If you don't abuse it, 240 hours a year is fine. If you break your leg, 4 months should be enough. Don't ski double black diamonds.


Get back to me on this one when you get older. A family friend had kidney stones years ago and was out for one year. There are many pilots who face medical problems over a 25-30 year career and this new policy is nothing but punitive and fails to recognize that we are subjected to medical standards office workers are not.

Overall, it wasn't that bad, and we can always try to chip away at it again when we start the 1-2 years of negotiating in 3.5 years.


Yea, we'll get em next time!


Bye Bye--General Lee

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Sigh.... Mainline pilots never learn. For two decades you guys have been giving flying away, and everytime you rationalize it with this kind of crap. Don't you get it? In a year they'll be back for 86-seat flying, and then 90-seaters, and then 100-seaters, and on and on and on. It never ends until you cowards stop giving it away so easily. This was the chance to draw the line in the sand and say "enough is enough." Instead, you've sent exactly the wrong message to airline management all over the country. Good job, General.

Actually, PCL they may have enough scope relief already. Your not seeing the big picture here. As long as there are more jobs avialable at the regionals, there will always be an oversupply of pilots into the majors. This is enough to never allow mainline pilots to get back what they had ever. The only thing that can be done falls on to the regional pilots and their ability to negotiate scope back onto mainline. There is hope, this will become more easy as the regionals consolidate into larger ones giving the pilot group strike power extending into many airlines.

 

[General Lee]

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I like how you added "yeah we'll get them next time" to the bottom of my post. I don't do that to your posts. This emotion that you are wrapped up in is affecting your thought processes. Get over it, and quit adding to my posts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[800Dog]

I like how you added "yeah we'll get them next time" to the bottom of my post. I don't do that to your posts. This emotion that you are wrapped up in is affecting your thought processes. Get over it, and quit adding to my posts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
I am not wrapped up in emotion. I am however tired of pilots giving away pay, benefits, scope etc. etc.. Delta has taken nothing from us. We have willfully given it all away. You come on this board and talk tough. Delta pilots will not give in etc. and then you do just the opposite and try to justify it. The furloughed pilots have been sold out. We are nothing more than an association, a boys club, and people like you are enablers of the decline and poor management. Now enjoy posting on here all night as usual. I am headed out to buy a furloughed friend some beers.

 

[General Lee]

General,
I am not wrapped up in emotion. I am however tired of pilots giving away pay, benefits, scope etc. etc.. Delta has taken nothing from us. We have willfully given it all away. You come on this board and talk tough. Delta pilots will not give in etc. and then you do just the opposite and try to justify it. The furloughed pilots have been sold out. We are nothing more than an association, a boys club, and people like you are enablers of the decline and poor management. Now enjoy posting on here all night as usual. I am headed out to buy a furloughed friend some beers.

Am I not allowed to THINK about it and rationally make a decision? Sure, I talk tough, and I don't think we did that bad at all. I was tough on the 70 seat stance, but as I saw the agreement as a whole, I didn't and don't think it will create a problem. We need first class seats in our larger RJs, and there is still a weight limit that did not change from the last LOA.

To say that our furloughed pilots have been sold out is to say that you know the future. I believe 1 in 4 will accept recall, and we are so short that those 200 or so that would have come back will come back. The others will stay at SW or CAL. Simple as that.

You still didn't admit to changing my post quote. That was uncalled for. People who are desperate do desperate things. Debate me on the facts, and try not to get dirty.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

Am I not allowed to THINK about it and rationally make a decision? Sure, I talk tough, and I don't think we did that bad at all. I was tough on the 70 seat stance, but as I saw the agreement as a whole, I didn't and don't think it will create a problem. We need first class seats in our larger RJs, and there is still a weight limit that did not change from the last LOA.

To say that our furloughed pilots have been sold out is to say that you know the future. I believe 1 in 4 will accept recall, and we are so short that those 200 or so that would have come back will come back. The others will stay at SW or CAL. Simple as that.

You still didn't admit to changing my post quote. That was uncalled for. People who are desperate do desperate things. Debate me on the facts, and try not to get dirty.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I agree, altering someone's past quote is a party foul....

My assessment of the TA - some positives and some negatives, but a net benefit in the end. I think stabilizing the airline for now and financing new growth will contribute to a more healthy Delta when this contract comes up for renegotiation... Was the TA the optimal solution for the pilots? We won't know for awhile but it provides the "finality" that the stock analysts and bankers need to finally help DAL out of bankruptcy. Bankers/Analysts operate on CERTAINTY, and a prolonged battle with pilots would have continued the earlier uncertainty that could have made additional exit financing either more expensive (cost prohibitive) or just not possible - leading to a possible liquidation.

Again, the TA has both positives and negatives (nobody is completely happy), but Delta's life has been extended and its prognosis should be healthier as a result...

 

[ZeroThRUST]

All DL flying would have been Brand Scoped if Dalpa had acted/voted logically back in 2000. Come to think of it, ALL furloughee's would still be flying.

 

[pipejockey]

Is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of the Japanese folding art called oragami when thinking of Delta pilots?

 

[Lear70]

Do I think the T.A. sucks? Absolutely.

Do I think the DAL pilots had any choice? Not realistically. Especially after the NWA pilots signed a deal that is SO much worse in almost every aspect. Any "NO" vote from the DAL pilots would have resulted in even WORSE terms on the next T.A. or the bankruptcy judge.

I also think the General is right, and that probably only 25-35% will accept recall, especially if they're already at SWA, CAL, or even airTran.

I'm sorry to see it happen, and can only hope that the future will hold brighter things for all of us.

Good luck to all of us, we're gonna need it.

Oh, btw, for the d*ck weed who posted something on page 1 about having a place to go later on in his career, I agree with the response... STFU. Don't post in the majors forum until you have at least 1 if not 2 or 3 types in a transport-category jet and have a CLUE what the broader implications of this are.

 

[G4dude]

This is great news for newbies like me. It means that DAL will be around for the long term so that I can hopefully be a Delta professional someday.

This is the only intelligent post on this thread, that's for sure! Delta must survive, or nobody gets any money. How embarassing for you union guys to have to have this explained to you.My colleagues call Delta pilots "wingnuts" for good reason. Truly legends in their own minds.

 

[D'Angelo]

Duane Woerth is the new trix bunny rabbit. Everyone says this saying to him. Silly Rabbit strikes are for tards!!!

 

[johnsonrod]

Is it just me, or is anyone else reminded of the Japanese folding art called oragami when thinking of Delta pilots?

Pipe,

Like they really had a choice in the matter over the long term. You need to be realistic - instead, it is easy for you play commentator and criticize others' decisions that will impact them far more than you.

So, tell me how you would have changed the TA in the possible face of liquidation and unhelpful arbitrators unwilling to necessarily take a side in the matter? Would those changes have been accepted by the majority?

From what I have been told, DALPA had already allowed the 86,000 lbs weight limit for regional jets (includes the CR9). At the end of the day, 76 seats equals 76 seats of revenue - that's it. We are not talking about 100 seaters - just 76 seats.

Delta still has over $700 million in debt repayments per year - even after bankruptcy (lowering debt from $20 billion to $13 billion after bankruptcy). This ain't Amtrak with zero accountability - Delta needs to make a profit for shareholders, banks and creditors... What new changes would have been acceptable to you and all of these parties? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

I am surprised that people are jumping on General Lee - he seems pretty rational to me. Everyone else seems very emotional and unwilling to consider the implications of stalling for a lot longer. People need to look at the bigger picture and not get so emotional.

 

[Champ42272]

Do I think the T.A. sucks? Absolutely.

Do I think the DAL pilots had any choice? Not realistically. Especially after the NWA pilots signed a deal that is SO much worse in almost every aspect. Any "NO" vote from the DAL pilots would have resulted in even WORSE terms on the next T.A. or the bankruptcy judge.

I also think the General is right, and that probably only 25-35% will accept recall, especially if they're already at SWA, CAL, or even airTran.

I'm sorry to see it happen, and can only hope that the future will hold brighter things for all of us.

Good luck to all of us, we're gonna need it.

Oh, btw, for the d*ck weed who posted something on page 1 about having a place to go later on in his career, I agree with the response... STFU. Don't post in the majors forum until you have at least 1 if not 2 or 3 types in a transport-category jet and have a CLUE what the broader implications of this are.



I think Lear 70 has it about right. I am very sorry for the furloughees, but when you have a gun to your head, it's tough to vote this POS down, since the result could easily be much worse.

My solution is "re-regulation". I predict the industry will be re-regulated in the event of another 9/11 type incident because no one will be able to insure the airlines except the government, and we're not going to stop flying airplanes because of psychopathic terrorists.

It sucks, hopefully things will get better soon.

Champ42272

 

[MedFlyer]

General,

You and I may disagree on many things, but I could at least respect you if you stood by your word. Pathetically, you couldn't even do that. You repeatedly told everyone that you would vote down any TA that included ANY scope over 70 seats. You said that there would be no compromise on this issue. But yet, you voted yes.

This TA maybe sad, but I think you are even more pathetic.

 

[737 Pylt]

General,

This TA maybe sad, but I think you are even more pathetic.

I think 60% of our pilots are pathetic!
737
voted NO to LOA 51

 

[Deuce130]

This is the only intelligent post on this thread, that's for sure! Delta must survive, or nobody gets any money. How embarassing for you union guys to have to have this explained to you.My colleagues call Delta pilots "wingnuts" for good reason. Truly legends in their own minds.

Probably a flamebait quote, but I'll bite. Doesn't matter if Delta survives or not, you won't get any money out of it - not in your lifetime anyway. The main reason young wannabes go to aviation colleges or learn to fly in the first place is cause they think that someday they'll be strolling down the terminal at ATL or LAX with stews in tow fawning all over their 300K a year salary. That's also the reason that many are willing to go in extreme debt (tuition, training, PFT, low paying commuter/regional/cropdusting job, etc) to get the qualifications and hours to finally be that guy. Once the realization sinks in, however, that the 300K a year salary is more than likely gone for the rest of thier lifetime, not to mention no pension, they will no longer be willing to saddle themselves with that kind of debt. Who in their right mind would? Therefore, the number of pilots shrink, aviation schools go out of business, PFT outfits get what they deserve and go bankrupt, and, voila, a pilot shortage ensues. Airline pay finally goes up, the military starts giving bonuses for guys to stay in once again, and the status of the profession goes once again increases. Of course, the only people who benefit are about 8 years old right now. And management, of course. And unions. DAL/NW/United pilots are the only ones left holding the bag at the moment, however.

 

[av8n]

Don't be mad that the majority of the voters saw the light.

They didn't see the light - they were running scared of their shadows.


To say that we could get more by voting this down is ridiculous.

History say otherwise. Almost always, after a TA is turned down, a better one is negotiated/mediated a short while later.


To say that our furloughed pilots got screwed is ridiculous.

So you are saying that by not holding the companies 'feet to the fire' with a callback date - that this is a benefit to the furloughees?


Those guys will get call backs, but no more than 1 in 4 will come back.

Show me where it is written (by DALPA or management publications) that only 1 in 4 furloughees will come back.


Then watch out for those black helicopters flying over your house at night, spying on you.....

Talk about letting your emotions getting the better of you.