Delta and SWA 717's a done deal?

[Crash Pad]

Aribus can't compete with this offer, planes basically free, training free, only cost will be engines.

You clearly don't know much about the engines on the 717.

 

[waveflyer]

What makes the culture so great is how well the Southwest pilots are compensated. With good will alone, you are JetBlue or Skywest pilots. It's all about the total compensation.

Well you know everything don't you?
I don't separate compensation from culture- it is a part of it, in the form of kept promises, and equitable sharing of profits by those who earn them.
But don't fool yourself that SWA is anything close to any company that retains Ford and Harrison union busters. (which is both of those)

 

[flyingitalian]

AirTran and Southwest reject!

Originally Posted by captain caveman
What makes the culture so great is how well the Southwest pilots are compensated. With good will alone, you are JetBlue or Skywest pilots. It's all about the total compensation.

The top quote from you own profile shows what you know about culture at SWA. The second just confirms the first.

 

[outerlimits]

I ran into a AirTran 717 pilot recently. He said Gary told him personally that if we get rid of all 717's, we will keep the pilots.

I have not been lied to by Gary or SWA yet.

If the AirTran pilots have a choice then Kelly would be true to Thais word .

I think I would take Delta over SWA if it is true that that Delta pilots believe in seat protection and relieve seniority .

 

[Whataburger]

Outerlimits:

Did Gary say they would have a choice?

Everyone has a different belief system. I respect and understand yours even though it's different than mine.

You want to "relieve" them of their seniority? Froidian slip?

I know Froidan is probably spelt wrong. There is a silent something in it.

 

[waveflyer]

Freudian
You know

 

[Citrusflyer]

The only way an AT guy makes it into a double-breasted suit would be if they interview and get on the bottom of the list - or go buy one at Jos A. Bank. But it'll probably take about half a dozen more "done-deal" threads before folks wake up to that fact...

 

[LandGreen]

The only way an AT guy makes it into a double-breasted suit would be if they interview and get on the bottom of the list - or go buy one at Jos A. Bank. But it'll probably take about half a dozen more "done-deal" threads before folks wake up to that fact...

^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

DL will not entertain 717s with pilots. Mgt is way too smart, unlike GK, to start a pilot civil war during a SLI with lowest pay a/c on the list.

 

[DonVerita]

^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^

DL will not entertain 717s with pilots. Mgt is way too smart, unlike GK, to start a pilot civil war during a SLI with lowest pay a/c on the list.

Why would the 717 be the "lowest pay a/c on the list"? How many seats do the Delta DC-9's have?

You probably already know this, but the AirTran 717's have 117 seats, including Business Class. In an all-coach configuration (like SWA would do), that number becomes 125. Also, a 717 cockpit is nothing like a DC-9, not even close. If a former NWA DC9 pilot were to step into a 717 cockpit, he would be lost amongst all the digital screens. Same goes for an ATN 717 pilot who might step into a DC9 and its round dial steam guages.

I would imagine that the DL pay rate would fall somewhere between the DC-9 and MD90.

 

[scoreboardII]

You clearly don't know much about the engines on the 717.

Besides they suck and couldn't pickup dirt better than a Dyson? No, I know nothing.

Put it this way, if the motors were good, wouldn't they be on more jets?

 

[jonjuan]

If the AirTran pilots have a choice then Kelly would be true to Thais word .

I think I would take Delta over SWA if it is true that that Delta pilots believe in seat protection and relieve seniority .

You would take the gimp and ball gag if you had a choice.

 

[Cometman]

Besides they suck and couldn't pickup dirt better than a Dyson? No, I know nothing.

Put it this way, if the motors were good, wouldn't they be on more jets?

Jets have engines not motors.

 

[aussieflyboy]

Jets have engines not motors.

Engines ARE motors, brain cell...

 

[scoreboardII]

Thank you aussie.

Just so comet man can learn from his error:


mo·tor

   /ˈmoʊtər/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled[moh-ter] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun 1. a comparatively small and powerful engine, especially an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.

 

[BoilerUP]

Put it this way, if the motors were good, wouldn't they be on more jets?

RR BR700 series engines are also used on the Gulfstream V/550, G650 and the Global Express/XRS.

...of course, the 715 produces a fair bit more thrust than the 710/725...

 

[Cometman]

Engines ARE motors, brain cell...

Don't take it personal. A lot of people do not know the difference.

* A motor converts electricity or other forms of kinetic energy into a mechanical motion *
* An engine is a mechanical device that uses a fuel source to create an output ​

 

[filejw]

Why would the 717 be the "lowest pay a/c on the list"? How many seats do the Delta DC-9's have?

You probably already know this, but the AirTran 717's have 117 seats, including Business Class. In an all-coach configuration (like SWA would do), that number becomes 125. Also, a 717 cockpit is nothing like a DC-9, not even close. If a former NWA DC9 pilot were to step into a 717 cockpit, he would be lost amongst all the digital screens. Same goes for an ATN 717 pilot who might step into a DC9 and its round dial steam guages.

I would imagine that the DL pay rate would fall somewhere between the DC-9 and MD90.

Delta DC-9 -50 have 125 seats..

 

[airplane wizard]

SWA's 717's the next Delta Connection carrier?

 

[meanstreak]

Is there ever going to be a story that confirms any of this? It gets old reading posts from people that a little birdie told me. Blah Blah Blah

 

[captain caveman]

The top quote from you own profile shows what you know about culture at SWA. The second just confirms the first.

Yes, Southwest was an interview factory with only a given number of slots for new hires depending on the day. They would purposely bring in far more candidates than they had room for. That's fine. I had a JetBlue interview, on the day Southwest asked to interview. I elected to postpone my Southwest interview and it probably cost me the job, at Southwest. No hard feelings, things worked out, and I have no plans to reapply at Southwest.

Without getting paid, it doesn't matter how good the culture is. If you got paid like a JetBlue co-pilot you probably wouldn't be touting how great your culture is.

 

[captain caveman]

Well you know everything don't you?
I don't separate compensation from culture- it is a part of it, in the form of kept promises, and equitable sharing of profits by those who earn them.
But don't fool yourself that SWA is anything close to any company that retains Ford and Harrison union busters. (which is both of those)

So does Delta and ASA. I'm just saying, without the pay, the culture really isn't important, and Southwest gets paid. Ford and Harrison are there to simply to reduce employee costs usually through avoiding unions.

 

[texman]

Mr. Caveman,

While I see your point, but SWA was never the highest paid. It is only by default. I would only hope if we where ever paid second tier, that the culture would still live on.

 

[captain caveman]

Mr. Caveman,

While I see your point, but SWA was never the highest paid. It is only by default. I would only hope if we where ever paid second tier, that the culture would still live on.

I agree, but there were incremental pay raises along the way, while others took cuts. What I'm trying to get at is that when you're a co-pilot at another airline doing the same job as a co-pilot at southwest, making 1/3 the money, it doesn't matter how much free pizza and unpaid time off you get, the job just kinda sucks. The culture could be a drug induced bliss, it just doesn't matter at the end of the day.

I'm hoping my airline can raise the bar to at least the level of Southwest and that is going to give me the perception of a much greater culture at where I work.

 

[waveflyer]

In that example, I'd agree- bc making 1/3 would be exploiting the pilots and taking advantage of them- and by definition counter-culture-
Making less though and working your way to better contracts is a wholly different thing-
In that scenario we could make Jblu and AirTran wages and still be happy as we earn profits and better wages over time
It's what our predecessors did, what I hope not to do by earning my money now- but will if other pilots can't get their wages up and we become a money loser-
It's an important distinction- we don't want to get paid for not coming to work- and the pilots, mechanics, and FAs are the only employees working for industry leading wages- everyone else from GK to all the HQ people are not paid exceptionally well- and as tex said- we're only top paid bc of 9/11 and BKs- we all want to be a part of a company that deserves our best and are mostly lucky to say we do.
But I'd say you got a bit to learn about our culture

 

[captain caveman]

Do you know what the co-pilots at Air Tran, Jet Blue and US Air make? In many cases about half and probably down to a third. I really think if you went to that pay rate, you wouldn't be saying how great the culture is.

And you say I know nothing about Southwest? Your rates are due to consistant profitability and small raises over the years, not just the demise of legacy carriers and BK.

 

[waveflyer]

I always, only speak for myself-
Don't get me wrong, I'm here for the money- but I want it to be sustainable money- and no- AT and B6 are never 1/3 the money- and not half either at comparable YOS and position- we do have better schedules, and rigs that up the ante- but I'd bet no more than 50-70% better - not 100% as you'd imply- look up on APC- both companies have gotten raises in the past years
Yeah- Allegiant is the biggest disparity where we make 75% more+ the rigs-
Lots are paid way too little, but nobody flying 120+ seats is on food stamps-
(nice, elevated bar eh?)

 

[captain caveman]

I'd wager about half for a second year JetBlue 190 co-pilot, decreasing to less than half over the years. This is what I was facing. Then, I little over half for an Tranny co-pilot. Then closer to a third for a US Air 190 co-pilot.

I hope everyone else can come up and someone else can hold the bar without Southwest loosing a penny of pay. I am hopeful.

 

[waveflyer]

These aren't subjective -
From APC
2nd year FO
SWa$97 ~
AT=$70=>38% less
B6=$69- a320 =>41% less
$62-e190=> 56%
AAA= $57 group2=> 70% less
= $45 e190=> 115% less
Nk= $66=>47% less
Allegiant=$63=>54% less
F9=$64= 52% less

Meaning that AAA's 190 rate is the only one that is less than half our pay- and we all know why that is....
Most are about 2/3-3/4 of our pay if you understand math- throw in the progressive tax and it's not crazy differences until you're willing to fly your butt off and work the system-
But standard line holder comparisons- Swa is better but not the numbers you're throwing around

I too am always hopeful- but afraid that wages will not improve until pilots choose to support their career politically. Reality got me to start a business. Bc that I won't hold my breath for.

 

[jonjuan]

In that example, I'd agree- bc making 1/3 would be exploiting the pilots and taking advantage of them- and by definition counter-culture-
Making less though and working your way to better contracts is a wholly different thing-
In that scenario we could make Jblu and AirTran wages and still be happy as we earn profits and better wages over time
It's what our predecessors did, what I hope not to do by earning my money now- but will if other pilots can't get their wages up and we become a money loser-
It's an important distinction- we don't want to get paid for not coming to work- and the pilots, mechanics, and FAs are the only employees working for industry leading wages- everyone else from GK to all the HQ people are not paid exceptionally well- and as tex said- we're only top paid bc of 9/11 and BKs- we all want to be a part of a company that deserves our best and are mostly lucky to say we do.
But I'd say you got a bit to learn about our culture

Do you really expect this to be the same 5 years from now (culture, leadership, profitability, and way you are paid?)

 

[waveflyer]

Moral of the story is USAPA sucks and their selfish, futile, tantrum is dragging us all down