Delta and SWA 717's a done deal?

[waveflyer]

Do you really expect this to be the same 5 years from now (culture, leadership, profitability, and way you are paid?)

You'll have to ask a more specific question-
I think we are going through many changes-
But I 200% agree that our culture can be as strong as ever- but it's up to us-

 

[captain caveman]

Yes, if you are talking hourly pay that is the case, but I am talking W2s. Even if we use hourly pay rates the percentages aren't that far off from what I was saying. By no means am I implying that Southwest pilot's are overly compensated. It is just that most of the rest are too far under for good moral and corporate culture to be a factor and offset that level of compensation. It's not even close unless you consider the premium freight haulers.

 

[boeing717]

Don't take it personal. A lot of people do not know the difference.

* A motor converts electricity or other forms of kinetic energy into a mechanical motion *​

* An engine is a mechanical device that uses a fuel source to create an output ​

It sounds like Aussieflyboy and ScoreboardII might have learned something.

 

[dicko]

It sounds like Aussieflyboy and ScoreboardII might have learned something.

Aussieflyboy knows that all engines and motors are really called "Donks". Scorboard II knows more than Darth Vader has forgotten. He once taught a German shepherd to bark in Spanish.

Word.

 

[ATLplt]

Latest rumor I heard on all of this was an announcement to come on Monday regarding the swap. 717's are going away. Delta pilot bids coming out in June for training on the aircraft. Also heard that all the paint contracts are being or have been canceled.

Again, rumors only, but they sounded legit enough to me. Choose to believe it or not, but either way the aircraft are as good as gone. Smart move by SWA...sell a fairly economical, proven jet to our closest competitor making them even more lean and able to fly right-sized aircraft to more competing markets. Whatever. See you guys in OAK next year. I'm sure the commute will be lovely.

 

[Max Powers]

Latest rumor I heard on all of this was an announcement to come on Monday regarding the swap. 717's are going away. Delta pilot bids coming out in June for training on the aircraft. Also heard that all the paint contracts are being or have been canceled.

Again, rumors only, but they sounded legit enough to me. Choose to believe it or not, but either way the aircraft are as good as gone. Smart move by SWA...sell a fairly economical, proven jet to our closest competitor making them even more lean and able to fly right-sized aircraft to more competing markets. Whatever. See you guys in OAK next year. I'm sure the commute will be lovely.

I wouldn't worry about it - I'm pretty sure the numbers don't lie when considering what makes good business sense. Fuel burn on a heavy (1st hour out) 717 from MSP to ATL yesterday was 5050 pounds at cruise FL320 with 110 on board. I would bet on the 737 it's less than 5050 with 20 more on board and at FL410.

As for losing your Cpt seat.......now that I would worry. Like mom said life is unfair.

 

[filejw]

Supposedly the BOD will be meeting on the two proposals (717 A319) in mid May....

 

[ATLplt]

As for losing your Capt seat.......now that I would worry.

Capt seat? I just laughed out loud. I'm behind you on the list. It'll be the mid 2020's till the light is seen at the end of that tunnel. Though I do feel bad for the guys who were gonna get to keep it throughout the transition. Maybe they were who you were referring to. I'm a little slow this evening.

Like mom said life is unfair.

You got that right. Things will work out eventually. We need to grow and hire like crazy, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[texman]

Ok so here is what your president BJ said when I ran in to him the other day.
The 717 in our network does not fit. Add the price of fuel (1 plus billion more we paid this year) to the equation it will not work over the long run. We are aggressively working a deal with Boeing if the airplanes are sold it will be a one for one swap with 737's. I did asked him directly if any jobs are going to be lost he said zero. I also asked if the 2015 deadline is solid as ever, his said more than ever.

On a side note I asked How many airplanes potential do we have to grow, if we hit 10-15% ROIC. He said two hundred plus!

The other thing is we are still paying down AT debts of 1 billion plus. We just paid 60 million recently. Our mgt is pretty smart you guys just don't see it or know it yet till you get here. I see because I make good coin great work environment and some job security.

AT had great revenue returns, but the price of fuel creep would put you guys in a world of hurt if we didn't already have the little synergies of the two companies right now.

No matter what everyone will be Swa by 2015, so no stress people.

 

[texman]

Oh by the way BJ will be in ATL in the next week or two to talk to you guys and girls. For what it is worth.

 

[Daddy]

Tex, I agree on all points except the growth. The real "synergy" is the pricing power in the marketplace by having one less airline to compete with on price. Let's all hope AMR and USAir hookup...among others. The less competition the better for us.

 

[texman]

Tex, I agree on all points except the growth. The real "synergy" is the pricing power in the marketplace by having one less airline to compete with on price. Let's all hope AMR and USAir hookup...among others. The less competition the better for us.

I can agree with that.

 

[scoreboardII]

Aussieflyboy knows that all engines and motors are really called "Donks". Scorboard II knows more than Darth Vader has forgotten. He once taught a German shepherd to bark in Spanish.

Word.

Dude you are my hero!

 

[scoreboardII]

It sounds like Aussieflyboy and ScoreboardII might have learned something.

I suppose this means nothing:

mo·tor/ˈmōtər/


Noun:A machine, esp. one powered by electricity or internal combustion, that supplies motive power for a vehicle or for some other device...

You guys are worse than the spelling Nazi's.

 

[Hamfighter]

I always thought of it as electric motor vs gas engine. Oh well, wrong again I suppose.

 

[waveflyer]

Engineers love this debate too
A few who work at our company sent me this-
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=206484

*****Engine vs Motor
thread1010-206484

8 Jan 08 19:58
Leaving out the newer renditions of "engine" (i.e. search engine, graphics engine, economic engine etc.), I'd like to hear if anyone has a conclusive explanation of the difference. The context is, I had a discussion with a colleague to the effect of, an engine is a motor which converts thermal energy to mechanical energy, and a motor is a machine that converts energy to motion (or propulsion). So my contention is that all**********engines are motors, but not all motors are engines. he was of the opinion that the two terms are virtually interchangeable, citing the prevalence in the Automotive world to refer to the thing under the hood as a "motor" or an "engine".

Unfortunately, I see a lot of ambiguity in the dictionaries I have looked at, leaning towards my opponents position. Most of them seem to use each word in the definition of the other. I think that dictionaries are essentially fluid documentation of common speech, not definitive technical reference resources, so the fact that lots of people have been misusing the terms has now become reflected in the dictionary definitions.

Thoughts?
davidbeach (Electrical)
8 Jan 08 20:57
To me, with a interest in railroads, it is clear what one is talking about when an engine in the internal combustion machine and a motor is the electrical machine the turns the axle (and the whole thing is a locomotive).**********So I'm with you that there is a difference, and I'd extend it out to engine and motor are two different things even though common usage is sloppier than that.**********Maybe as hybrid cars become more common there will be a clearer distinction between the terms as people need to distinguish between the engine and the motors.
pmover (Mechanical)
8 Jan 08 21:46
From Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Engine:
4: a machine for converting any of various forms of energy into mechanical force and motion; also : a mechanism or object that serves as an energy source <black holes may be the engines for quasars>

Motor:
1: one that imparts motion; specifically : prime mover
2: any of various power units that develop energy or impart motion: as a: a small compact engine b: internal combustion engine; especially : a gasoline engine c: a rotating machine that transforms electrical energy into mechanical energy

I would never refer to an electrical motor as an engine!

jraef, I agree with your thoughts!
-pmover
rmw (Mechanical)
8 Jan 08 22:14
While it is common and there are some fairly recent threads that refer to "motoring" an engine, who'd ever think to say in the same context "engining" an engine?**********But according to Merriam above that would be proper.**********Go figure.

Sorry, but I don't trust civilians with technical definitions.**********I used to know the difference in the definitions but I can't remember it right now.

rmw
electricpete (Electrical)
8 Jan 08 22:37
Thought provoking question.

I think that somewhere way back the word motor comes from the same ancenstry as the word motion.**********One example "motor skills".**********(skills to produce motion).

Brings to mind a question about the underlying root word in engine and engineer.**********Are we called engineers because we are associated with technical things like engines?**********Or do engine and engineer both derive from the same word related to our ability to produce an effect.**********Beats me.

Clearly in the electrical world we like to reserve the word motor for electric motors. But also there are air motors.**********Are they called air motors because they do the same thing as an electric motor, but with air?**********Or because they produce motion? The latter, I think (but I'm not sure).**********It definitely irritates me when my wife refers to the motor under the car hood.

I agree the terms motoring an engine would be reserved to the context of an engine driving a generator and when the generator is motored the direction of power reverses.**********That seems limited to electrical contexts.

Bottom line. Beats me. I would be interested to hear an authoritative rule which covers all applications, but I doubt there is one.
=====================================
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electricpete (Electrical)
8 Jan 08 22:38
And would you be more likely to put motor oil in an engine or a motor?
=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.
MadMango (Mechanical)
8 Jan 08 22:44
In aerospace, rockets are considered "motors" as well.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
GregLocock (Automotive)
8 Jan 08 23:48
Whereas I'd call them (and any jet engine I can think of except plasma drives) internal combustion engines.


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
fcsuper (Mechanical)
9 Jan 08 12:53
Although they have different root words, they are in effect, the same thing to a degree.**********The class of mechanisms we call motors is a subset of what we call engines; engines being the broader category.**********We are called Engineers, not Motoreers.**********heheehehe

Given that explanation, it does make sense to motor an engine (create motion with the engine), but not engining a motor (convert the motor into motion).**********
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
GregLocock (Automotive)
9 Jan 08 20:02
we're not called engineers cos we play with engines, it is because we are ingenious.

Engine is a subset of motor in this context.
Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Morquea (Electrical)
10 Jan 08 12:21
The same Merriam-Webster online previously cited by pmover tell this about "engine" etymology**********:

Etymology: Middle English engineering, from Anglo-French, from Latin "ingenium" natural disposition, talent, from "in"- + "gignere" to beget — more at kin

But for engineer :
Etymology: Middle English engineour, from Anglo-French, from enginer to devise, construct, from engineering

And motor :
Etymology: Latin, from "mov?re" to move

We have commonly only one word in french : "moteur"
L'Office québécoise de la langue française suggest, for the same "engine" definition as from the M-W, both "engine" and "motor". But it proposed "engine" first and would be prefered since they rule it in 2001 and the word "motor" in 1993. They newer definition takes priority. Also, for "moteur" in aerospace it proposed "booster" ("launching rocket" as near synonym) but a rocket is a "fusée".
www.granddictionnaire.com

Talking about confusion?

Danny Garant, ing.jr
Groupe Stavibel Inc.
www.stavibel.qc.ca
civilperson (Structural)
10 Jan 08 14:59
I am an engineer because I drive the external combustion locomotive pulling the train.
1Jobshop (Industrial)
15 Jan 08 14:11
Well I have to think maybe my x wife was involved in this some how, becouse on my bass boat I have what they call and large outboard motor.
ringman (Mechanical)
18 Jan 08 20:55
If I attach a 50 horse engine to my boat does it become a engine boat?
fcsuper (Mechanical)
19 Jan 08 2:12
No, it becomes an engine water craft.**********
Matt Lorono
CAD Engineer/ECN Analyst
Silicon Valley, CA
Lorono's SolidWorks Resources
Co-moderator of Solidworks Yahoo! Group
and Mechnical.Engineering Yahoo! Group
btrueblood (Mechanical)
22 Jan 08 11:53
"In aerospace, rockets are considered "motors" as well. "

At the rocket factory where I worked as a young engineer, I was roundly berated for referring to a solid rocket as an engine, or a liquid-propellant engine as a motor.**********Frankly, I still claim hogwash, since the elder COB (Crotchety Old Bustard) could not supply a definition that made sense; I agree with the OP's derivation, which implies that rockets are both.

An engine is any useful man-made contrivance that takes in power and possibly raw material, and converts those into a useful output.**********This is roughly abstracted from wikipedia's article on engines, and is based on its derivation from the latin, "an invention".**********Thus we have Babbage's Difference Engine, or the Middle Ages' Siege Engines, in addition to our modern car engines.

A motor is a sub-class of engines, one that produces motive power as its primary output.**********

But, go figure, we are talking about the English language here, and thus have outboard motors on sale next to motorcycle engines, both of which may have electric motors for starting.**********Just don't call a solid-fuel rocket an engine, or you will get sneered at.
GregLocock (Automotive)
22 Jan 08 17:55
I hope someone is drawing a Venn diagram of this lot.
Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376: Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
SomptingGuy (Automotive) p

521AB (Electrical)
10 Mar 08 17:40
electricpete, regarding this"... Are we called engineers because we are associated with technical things like engines?**********Or do engine and engineer both derive from the same word related to our ability to produce an effect.**********Beats me...:"

I think you should look at the old latin "ingenium", which means "to be good in something", "somebody who uses its brain" or "innovator". I hope I have managed to explain its meaning.

At least this is what I was told at my first day at engineering school (wrongly called engineering university).

 

[tankerhead]

None of those ninnies were flaming each other...fake!

 

[boeing717]

I suppose this means nothing:

mo·tor/ˈmōtər/


Noun:A machine, esp. one powered by electricity or internal combustion, that supplies motive power for a vehicle or for some other device...

That is for the general public. The professionals know the difference. Next time you need a new fan motor for your air conditioner tell the repair man you need a new engine and see what he tells you. Start acting like you know what you are talking about. Remember the old saying : rather a man think I am a fool than open my mouth and remove all doubt".

 

[outerlimits]

So why is GM called General Motors ?

Did they start out by making electric cars back in 1908 ?

 

[DonVerita]

Delta DC-9 -50 have 125 seats..

Does Delta still fly other versions of the DC-9 besides the -50?