Delta acquisition of NWA almost finalized!

[NuGuy]

Cheers... I can be trained ... I think I'm figuring out how to pass my DC9 checkride... and I'd better add Superpilot's :beer: to the post. Now if I can figure out how to perform a walk around in the ice and avoid falling on my butt on the frozen lav juice.

A320 vs MD 88 (Similar seat capactiy ~140, 12 year rates) PRIOR to Merger Nonsense (APC Numbers)

NWA @ 85 hours

CA
$139x80 = $11120
$208.5x5 = $1042 (premium over 80)

CA Total: $12162

FO
$95x80 = $7600
$142.5 = $712 (premium over 80)

FO Total: $8312

DAL @ 85 hours

CA
$142 x 85 = $12070

CA Total: $12070

FO
$97 x 85 = $8245

Doesn't look like much of a difference to me. Actually, since NWA uses a blended rate for the 319/320, works out even more in NWAs favor.

The 757/767 works out for DAL SLIGHTLY, because they use a blended rate also.

If it wasn't for the merger, you wouldn't have had LOA19. Had we not done a joint deal, we probably would have negotiated similar rates for the NWA side.

I know you DAL boyos are all into W2s, so you might grasp this.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

A320 vs MD 88 (Similar seat capactiy ~140, 12 year rates) PRIOR to Merger Nonsense (APC Numbers)

NWA @ 85 hours

CA
$139x80 = $11120
$208.5x5 = $1042 (premium over 80)

CA Total: $12162

FO
$95x80 = $7600
$142.5 = $712 (premium over 80)

FO Total: $8312

DAL @ 85 hours

CA
$142 x 85 = $12070

CA Total: $12070

FO
$97 x 85 = $8245

Doesn't look like much of a difference to me. Actually, since NWA uses a blended rate for the 319/320, works out even more in NWAs favor.

The 757/767 works out for DAL SLIGHTLY, because they use a blended rate also.

If it wasn't for the merger, you wouldn't have had LOA19. Had we not done a joint deal, we probably would have negotiated similar rates for the NWA side.

I know you DAL boyos are all into W2s, so you might grasp this.

Nu

That's not how the arbitrators will look at it. Nope. Per hour, not 80 hours for you. How about we add our rolling thunder Greenslips? It will be per hour, and a 12 year DC9 FO for you guys makes $85 an hour, 12 year A320 FO makes $95, and a 12 year 757FO makes $98 an hour, which is eclipsed by a 3rd year 767 FO at DL for the DC9, 5th year for the A320, and 6th year 767 FO at DL for your 757. I am sure it is about the same for the Captains. You can try to add hours per month etc, but our Average Line Value per month varies, with some months having 85 or more hours per month per line (Summer), and some having 73 hours (Fall).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

That's not how the arbitrators will look at it. Nope. Per hour, not 80 hours for you. How about we add our rolling thunder Greenslips? It will be per hour, and a 12 year DC9 FO for you guys makes $89 an hour, which is eclipsed by a 3rd year 767 FO at DL.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Nope. They'll look at it exactly how the repective merger committees present their cases.

If the average NWA pilot gets 85 hours of credit, he earns this much. If you want to amortize the premium pay for over 80 over the entire pay scale, for a hourly rate, it makes no difference.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Nope. They'll look at it exactly how the repective merger committees present their cases.

If the average NWA pilot gets 85 hours of credit, he earns this much. If you want to amortize the premium pay for over 80 over the entire pay scale, for a hourly rate, it makes no difference.

Nu

Heyas, we are paid more, and we are presenting that to the arbitrators. You can dance all you want around the subject, which doesn't make you correct. It is a huge difference too, especially when you look at your DC9 (the smallest plane you have) vs ours (MD88). The 757 is a big difference too, and you can say you get time and a half over 80 hours, but what is your average line value this month? I bet it aint 80 hours. We can pick up extra time too if it is available, and our greenslips this summer were crazy. Most newhires on the 767ER were getting 3 greenslips a month, which gave them well over 100 hours of pay per month, which was a lot more than your newhires on the DC9s. The rest of us did well too. You can't get around it, and it is being presented to arbitrators as we speak. But, your frozen pensions are larger than ours........another thing they will take into account.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas, we are paid more, and we are presenting that to the arbitrators. You can dance all you want around the subject, which doesn't make you correct. It is a huge difference too, especially when you look at your DC9 (the smallest plane you have) vs ours (MD88). The 757 is a big difference too, and you can say you get time and a half over 80 hours, but what is your average line value this month? I bet it aint 80 hours. We can pick up extra time too if it is available, and our greenslips this summer were crazy. Most newhires on the 767ER were getting 3 greenslips a month, which gave them well over 100 hours of pay per month, which was a lot more than your newhires on the DC9s. The rest of us did well too. You can't get around it, and it is being presented to arbitrators as we speak. But, your frozen pensions are larger than ours........another thing they will take into account.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Actual line value for most fleets: 86 hours

%80 of the pilots at NWA designate "MAX Sched" which builds lines to within 3 hours of the monthly max. The company staffs the airline on that basis.

Awarded at the time of monthly bidding

ALL open time is available for pick up during any time during the month. ANYTHING over 80, and the premium rate applies. No waiting around for the day before for the company to decide to offer up trips. You can add time to your schedule before the bid month even starts.

NWA has "green slips" also. The company designates certain trips as premium trips. But instead of waiting until 24 hours prior, they're posted and available for pick up at ANY time. Guess what? That pays %150 too, even if under 80. If OVER 80, it's a double whammy, and the %150 is paid on TOP of the premium pay.

We are paid more, and we are presenting that to the arbitrators

NWA @85 hours
CA Total: $12162
FO Total: $8312

DAL @ 85 hours
CA Total: $12070
FO Total: $8245

Ya, don't let that math thingy get in your way.

I'm wondering if the 767 would go so junior if the work rules or the domiciles were better. Try Minnesota, I understand it has a calming influence, and has better math programs for your kids.


Nu

 

[General Lee]

Actual line value for most fleets: 86 hours

%80 of the pilots at NWA designate "MAX Sched" which builds lines to within 3 hours of the monthly max. The company staffs the airline on that basis.

Awarded at the time of monthly bidding

ALL open time is available for pick up during any time during the month. ANYTHING over 80, and the premium rate applies. No waiting around for the day before for the company to decide to offer up trips. You can add time to your schedule before the bid month even starts.

NWA has "green slips" also. The company designates certain trips as premium trips. But instead of waiting until 24 hours prior, they're posted and available for pick up at ANY time. Guess what? That pays %150 too, even if under 80. If OVER 80, it's a double whammy, and the %150 is paid on TOP of the premium pay.

I'm wondering if the 767 would go so junior if the work rules or the domiciles were better. Try Minnesota, I understand it has a calming influence.


Nu

So, were you going to have a large displacement? What happened to that? It was taken away. Why? I know why----the SLI. You are still scheduled to remove more planes than we are, and those line values will shrink. We all know that. I'll tell you what the arbitrators will look at, the average pay per hour, and what someone is capable of making. We all have our busy months and our slow ones. To say that your current schedule isn't slowing down is ridiculous. Are you as busy in October as you were in August? Come on now, every airline pulled flights in SEP and OCT. We can all fly 1000 hour per year max, and at our pay rates we can tell the difference between W2s. Some people make more with greenslips, and inverse assignments (double pay). That is irrelevent.

As far as the 767ER newhires and why they are there, yes, the reserve rules currently suck (8 shortcalls a month), but will get better (6 per month) at the DCC. A lot of people don't like JFK or NYC either. Sounds like DTW, where 70% of your pilots commute. I bet a lot of people dislike the DC9 too, and being an FE in ANC while living in the Contiguous 48 might suck too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

Some people make more with greenslips, and inverse assignments (double pay).

Inverse assignments? But I had DAL guys on this very forum tell me junior manning NEVER happens at DAL! Were we sold something that wasn't true?!?

Junior manning sucks. It sucked for you, and now it sucks for us. Thanks alot...one more check in the QoL column during the arbitration.

Nu

 

[Occam's Razor]

You mean THIS no prejudice SLI agreement?:

23 June 2008

This will confirm our agreement regarding the use of certain discussions, proposals and/or agreements occurring during negotiations for a joint collective bargaining agreement between Delta Air Lines and ALPA covering the combined Delta and Northwest pilot groups and preparation for such negotiations.
The Delta and Northwest MECs and their respective representatives agree that any discussions, written or oral proposals or agreements, or other communications of any kind (including any documents, exhibits and data) between or among Delta, ALPA, the Delta MEC and the NWA MEC and their representatives, employees or counsel regarding pay rates on any aircraft type shall not be used nor in any way referred to either directly or indirectly in any seniority list integration negotiation, mediation or arbitration proceeding between the pilot groups for the purpose of attempting to demonstrate that one or more aircraft type(s) should be considered or not considered the substantial equivalent of any other aircraft type(s).
Please indicate your concurrence by signing below.
Sincerely,
____________________ ___________________
Captain Donald L. Moak Captain Dave Stevens
Chairman, Delta MEC Chairman, Northwest MEC

Oopsy! Puffy has a new daddy!

Either be correct...or be nice.

 

[General Lee]

Inverse assignments? But I had DAL guys on this very forum tell me junior manning NEVER happens at DAL! Were we sold something that wasn't true?!?

Junior manning sucks. It sucked for you, and now it sucks for us. Thanks alot...one more check in the QoL column during the arbitration.

Nu

It never happens for you guys? It happens for us EVERY SUMMER. We are always short, and they run out of guys to do greenslips, and thanks to all of the vacations (and less people selling them back), they have to inverse assign. That doesn't happen for you? Come on. When big holidays come around too, people tend to get sick also. Inverse assignment happen for everyone.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Oopsy! Puffy has a new daddy!

Either be correct...or be nice.

Hey, what about bringing the A330 rates up to the 764 rates? Remember that? We approved it as long as the new A330 rates were NOT used in arbitration for pay. We would use the OLD rates. Yes, yes the payrates are being used. It makes a difference when it comes to windfalls.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Scope out RJ's]

A320 vs MD 88 (Similar seat capactiy ~140, 12 year rates) PRIOR to Merger Nonsense (APC Numbers)

NWA @ 85 hours

CA
$139x80 = $11120
$208.5x5 = $1042 (premium over 80)

CA Total: $12162

FO
$95x80 = $7600
$142.5 = $712 (premium over 80)

FO Total: $8312

DAL @ 85 hours

CA
$142 x 85 = $12070

CA Total: $12070

FO
$97 x 85 = $8245

Doesn't look like much of a difference to me. Actually, since NWA uses a blended rate for the 319/320, works out even more in NWAs favor.

The 757/767 works out for DAL SLIGHTLY, because they use a blended rate also.

If it wasn't for the merger, you wouldn't have had LOA19. Had we not done a joint deal, we probably would have negotiated similar rates for the NWA side.

I know you DAL boyos are all into W2s, so you might grasp this.

Nu

I like how it works out more in NWA's favor when it concerns you, but works slightly in DAL's favor when it doesn't!
Good thing for you and the rest of the arm chair arbitrators on here that nothing will be decided by FI postings!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hey, what about bringing the A330 rates up to the 764 rates? Remember that? We approved it as long as the new A330 rates were NOT used in arbitration for pay. We would use the OLD rates. Yes, yes the payrates are being used. It makes a difference when it comes to windfalls.

Context.

Previous negotiations can't be used in the arbitration. The "Almost" stuff from April 8th can't be used as evidence of acceptance or understanding. Obviously, either side can use elements of, or entire proposals previously passed across the table during earlier negotiating sessions...but the posted paragraph is clear.

The February Joint Contract deal can't be used either. That agreement between the two MEC's had the A330 paying more than the 764. You guys agreed to that. We can't use that fact.

That's a good thing.

The word "acquisition" can't be used. The word "Merger" is capitalized throughout the document for a reason. The arbitration is focused (See paragraph 5, last sentence) on integration issues only. Corporate transactions aren't germane.

That's chaff.

We don't want the fratricide we're seeing over at Airw...er...Cactus.

 

[jetjockey#1]

Actual line value for most fleets: 86 hours

%80 of the pilots at NWA designate "MAX Sched" which builds lines to within 3 hours of the monthly max. The company staffs the airline on that basis.

I'm wondering if the 767 would go so junior if the work rules or the domiciles were better. Try Minnesota, I understand it has a calming influence, and has better math programs for your kids.


Nu

So how many hours do the NWA pilots fly a year? You make it sound like most pilots fly 85-90 hours a month every month. I am sorry you guys are working yourself to death every month. With the big raises you all are getting, maybe you just have to work 75-80 hours and make even more money. What are you guys getting, 30% raise over 4 years. I know, I know, your medical is going to cost you more.

I remember last time I was in Minessota. They "warned" me that more than 10 minutes outside you are risking frostbite, but I am sure they were lying right???? And DTW with its up and coming economy and all, the crime is so low, and yes population is growing what -2 to -3% a year. I am sure that's a lie too.

All I am saying is, NWA is getting the lion share of this deal, accept it, and be happy, it could've gone the other way.

 

[NuGuy]

It never happens for you guys? It happens for us EVERY SUMMER. We are always short, and they run out of guys to do greenslips, and thanks to all of the vacations (and less people selling them back), they have to inverse assign. That doesn't happen for you? Come on. When big holidays come around too, people tend to get sick also. Inverse assignment happen for everyone.

Nope, because we have this pesky thing called a contract.

There is junior manning, except that we call it involuntary callout. It is EXTREMELY limited in scope.

Only the bottom 10% of the blockholders in any category are affected, with the MAXIMUM number being 10. Even if there is a 300 pilot category, still only the bottom 10 pilots are affected. Those are the ONLY pilots who are subject to IC.

Heck, I don't even look at the caller ID anymore. On a day off THEY CAN'T TOUCH ME. No obligation to accept a trip if called. Heck, I pick up the phone if I see a 612or 952 number just to chat with the scheduler, and ask how their day is.

The best part is they can't ruin peoples quality of life (there's that phrase again) because they don't know how to staff the airline.

If you ARE unlucky enough to be one of the bottom 10 in category, you get paid %200. Unless it's over 80, then the %200 "stacks" withthe %150 premium pay. And since most everyone flies over 80 anway, well, you see where this is going.

But that's all gone...have to use DAL rules now...wow, what an, um, improvement.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Nope, because we have this pesky thing called a contract.

There is junior manning, except that we call it involuntary callout. It is EXTREMELY limited in scope.

Only the bottom 10% of the blockholders in any category are affected, with the MAXIMUM number being 10. Even if there is a 300 pilot category, still only the bottom 10 pilots are affected. Those are the ONLY pilots who are subject to IC.

Heck, I don't even look at the caller ID anymore. On a day off THEY CAN'T TOUCH ME. No obligation to accept a trip if called. Heck, I pick up the phone if I see a 612or 952 number just to chat with the scheduler, and ask how their day is.

The best part is they can't ruin peoples quality of life (there's that phrase again) because they don't know how to staff the airline.

If you ARE unlucky enough to be one of the bottom 10 in category, you get paid %200. Unless it's over 80, then the %200 "stacks" withthe %150 premium pay. And since most everyone flies over 80 anway, well, you see where this is going.

But that's all gone...have to use DAL rules now...wow, what an, um, improvement.

Nu

Come on now. Don't get BENT. A lot of the QOL issues that were worse are now going to be better thanks to the Joint Contract. As I said, only 6 monthly callouts for reserves (vs 8), and inverse assignments will go back to double pay, vs time and a half. Also, I think they are working on a system where an automatic phone call goes out for inverse assignments, and that they are not mandatory. I think they had some teething problems at first, but are working on it.

Regardless, eventually you'll have a better choice of bases, more widebodies to choose, and a better looking uniform chicks "dig." And that hat, you will LOVE it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

AHHHH SKEET SKEET SKEET YEEEAAAH I'M RICH!!!

What got into you?

It aint what got into me, it's what got into Oprah. I'm rich!

 

[NuGuy]

So how many hours do the NWA pilots fly a year? You make it sound like most pilots fly 85-90 hours a month every month. I am sorry you guys are working yourself to death every month. With the big raises you all are getting, maybe you just have to work 75-80 hours and make even more money. What are you guys getting, 30% raise over 4 years. I know, I know, your medical is going to cost you more.

All I am saying is, NWA is getting the lion share of this deal, accept it, and be happy, it could've gone the other way.

Yup. Medical is more. A LOT more. And no annual cap on increases. Super deluxe, there, chief.

Actually, it's credit time, not block time. 86 hours credit is usually 81-82 hours hardfly.

Yea, I gotta get me some of that NYC or LAX cost of living, Or, hey, how about some of that ATL traffic...gosh, it really thins out south of the airport....say around Macon.

No way on earth would call what we got "the lions share", but if that's what helps you sleep at night, then whatever floats yer boat.

Nu

 

[PuffDriver]

Oopsy! Puffy has a new daddy!

Either be correct...or be nice.

Sigh, I thought you had wised up. Here is the language again, I will boldface the relevant part that you guys try and ignore:

23 June 2008

This will confirm our agreement regarding the use of certain discussions, proposals and/or agreements occurring during negotiations for a joint collective bargaining agreement between Delta Air Lines and ALPA covering the combined Delta and Northwest pilot groups and preparation for such negotiations.
The Delta and Northwest MECs and their respective representatives agree that any discussions, written or oral proposals or agreements, or other communications of any kind (including any documents, exhibits and data) between or among Delta, ALPA, the Delta MEC and the NWA MEC and their representatives, employees or counsel regarding pay rates on any aircraft type shall not be used nor in any way referred to either directly or indirectly in any seniority list integration negotiation, mediation or arbitration proceeding between the pilot groups for the purpose of attempting to demonstrate that one or more aircraft type(s) should be considered or not considered the substantial equivalent of any other aircraft type(s).
Please indicate your concurrence by signing below.
Sincerely,
____________________ ___________________
Captain Donald L. Moak Captain Dave Stevens
Chairman, Delta MEC Chairman, Northwest MEC


So you see, this protects the Delta pilots, who tried to find a far equitable solution to the list waaayyyy back when, from being harmed for starting with the middle position. Pay rates ARE fair game and WILL be used along with many other guns we have. I expect both sides to fight hard and dirty for their respective pilots. Hopefully we will then leave it all on the field.

In the meantime, don't be afraid to ask questions when some of the new language confuses you because you are so dense.

 

[123]

Sigh, I thought you had wised up. Here is the language again, I will boldface the relevant part that you guys try and ignore:

23 June 2008

This will confirm our agreement regarding the use of certain discussions, proposals and/or agreements occurring during negotiations for a joint collective bargaining agreement between Delta Air Lines and ALPA covering the combined Delta and Northwest pilot groups and preparation for such negotiations.
The Delta and Northwest MECs and their respective representatives agree that any discussions, written or oral proposals or agreements, or other communications of any kind (including any documents, exhibits and data) between or among Delta, ALPA, the Delta MEC and the NWA MEC and their representatives, employees or counsel regarding pay rates on any aircraft type shall not be used nor in any way referred to either directly or indirectly in any seniority list integration negotiation, mediation or arbitration proceeding between the pilot groups for the purpose of attempting to demonstrate that one or more aircraft type(s) should be considered or not considered the substantial equivalent of any other aircraft type(s).
Please indicate your concurrence by signing below.
Sincerely,
____________________ ___________________
Captain Donald L. Moak Captain Dave Stevens
Chairman, Delta MEC Chairman, Northwest MEC


So you see, this protects the Delta pilots, who tried to find a far equitable solution to the list waaayyyy back when, from being harmed for starting with the middle position. Pay rates ARE fair game and WILL be used along with many other guns we have. I expect both sides to fight hard and dirty for their respective pilots. Hopefully we will then leave it all on the field.

In the meantime, don't be afraid to ask questions when some of the new language confuses you because you are so dense.

Hey Puff,

You need to keep reading the rest of the statement. I highlighted the important part for you.

 

[PuffDriver]

Hey Puff,

You need to keep reading the rest of the statement. I highlighted the important part for you.

Try again. The paragraph is clearly prefaced by the phrase during JCBA. That statement is further clarified by your highlight.

IOW, those little statements, note taking by the 60 NWA that had to be in the room doing the "big brother", openers, SLI negotiations DURING the JCBA negotiations, pay rates during the JCBA negotiations are off limits. The Delta MEC started with a fair seniority list proposal in the JCBA negotiations. All this is saying is that what was stated then does not apply now. CBAs that existed before the negotiations and after the negotiations, as well as statements made before/after the negotiations are all fair game.

I remember all of the NWA guys on here snickering as to how all of those "Delta comments" in the JCBA negotiations would come back to bite them in the SLI. WRONG.

It's ok, Occam, you don't have to say anything. We all know. You too DTW.