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declaring an emergency

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CharleyV,

Thanks for your comments. I should clarify something. Several posters have commented on calmness and coolness as though I might approach each situation as though it were a ho-hum event. Not so. I don't want to give that impression, either. Sometimes that's certainly the case, and many of my engine shutdowns have been that way; proceedural and pretty much a non-event.

When I started the season this year, I had been out of it for two years. I had been out of a conventional gear (tailwheel) airplane for quite some time, and haven't had any single engine time in donkey's years. When I did the checkout in the single seat airplane, I got airborne and thought about all the foolish things I've done in my life, and added that to the list. Just like all single seat checkouts. Depart, and you have fifteen minutes to teach yourself to fly the airplane, and one shot at teaching yourself how to land it. So it went.

Shortly thereafter, I had a dispatch to a fire above a small town at the base of a mountain. Surface winds were gusting up to 50 knots in places, and it was extremely rough. Someone questioned my definition of extreme turbulence, and this was indeed extreme turbulence. The aircraft was not always under my control. It's not uncommon when working a fire, and unfortunately, the wind and the weather is what creates and drives the fire; when it's at it's worst, that's when you go to work.

As I maneuvered close to the hillside for the first look and size-up, the airplane began rolling left. I countered with full aileron and rudder, and it kept rolling left. I lifted the gaurd to arm the drop system, and engaged the turbo switch, that gives me an extra 4% power (removes the gaurd on the fuel controller). I applied full power. The airspeed rolled back to just above stall about the time the roll started, and I dumped the nose at the ground. It kept rolling and kept slowing. I started dumping in some flap to increase the stall margin while I worked for recovery.

I recovered shortly thereafter, but was fighting hard with the local rotors agains the mountain. Lots of turbulence. When all was said and done, my legs were shaking on the rudder pedals, and kept shaking for the next hour. My toes, both pressing hard on the bottom of the rudder pedals while I did my best Fred Astair, went numb. My mouth was dry; I couldn't talk well on the radio, and most of the time couldn't move my hand enough to engage the PTT switch. It turned out the turbulence had been rough enough I'd lifted the gaurd to arm the system, but missed the switch beneath it, and hadn't been albe to dump, anyway. After that, I didn't dare let go of the stick long enough to change hands to reach over the 12 inches and move the switch.

I couldn't maintain altitude, and ended up descending below the drop site while fighting the mountain winds. I did finally get up by working some ridge lift on an opposite face, and did get two drops into the fire. The bottom line was that there was no sense of bravado, no sense of stoicness, no sense of serenity. It was a disaster in motion, to which I was a paid participant who lacked the sufficient life insurance coverage to give up.

During the ensuing drops, on the first run, I was unable to recover as I passed the target. I put out half a load and applied power, but fell off to the stall and couldn't pull from the dive immediately; I took an exit over the target and at an angle and in a bank down a narrow finger canyon while I worked the recovery. There is an irony to running out of airspeed and altitude while going down hill...usually it's overspeed downhill, but not that time. The second one went better, but that is sometimes the break on a drop. Not by choice, but by conditions, which can be adverse.

The point to it is that coolness and collectiveness aren't always bedfellows to working the airplane, though that would be the preference. No panic, no excitement, but more of a sickening feeling that comes when bile rises in the back of your throat, your leg muscles burn and feel weak, and You have an impending sense that something bad is happening or could happen, and you don't have all the facts yet.

There are certainly times when it's worse, and there have been times when I knew what it was like to have knowledge of an impending death, and the starkness of that reality. That didn't happen, but I've been there enough that I know the feeling well; it sits between a halted internal scream, and the calm of surrender to the inevitable. It's balanced by resolving to do everything in your power to fight that inevitability until no more breath exists, and to date it's that balance that's kept me alive.

My regular job involves paying passengers and employment under an operating certificate, security, IFR, turbojet engines, and the normalcy of point to point flying. It's dull, it's boring, and it's okay. I shine my shoes, I smile at passengers and greet them, and I keep the airplane on the centerline at all times. I train, I work as a team and a crew, I follow proceedures. I also have discretion, and most of the time, I'm not going to declare an emergency for simple issues. In a part 25 airplane, this may includes engine failures, that can still leave the airplane with far more performance than God ever intended a body to have.

If I need to "declare" an emergency, I'll do it. If I don't, I won't. I will not capitulate to making such a declaration based on this or that, but on the circumstances at the time of the occurance. THe former scenario in which we tossed the engine at V1 would have been the same in any airplane, in any situation. There was nobody to talk to. It was an uncontrolled field; the best I could have done is conversed with a private pilot, and our hands were full. So it is in many cases.

I've used this example many times, but it's a good one. It involves a pilot flying an ag airplane to the field, south of where I was working years ago. He was carrying Parathion 8E; for those of you who know nerve agents such as VX, it's the same. His hopper burst. He was bathed in the chemical. A single drop on the tongue can kill or incapacitate. It's absorbed through the skin, the vapor is lethal. He was in a bad state.

He spied a dyke on which to land (the mass of earth pushed up, not the...). He set the airplane on the levee and got it stopped well enough. Water was in a ditch alongside the dyke, and if he could get into the water, he might have a chance. He cut away the canopy door, tossed his helmet, climbed down, and made a beeline for the water. He would have lived, if he hadn't run into the still-turning propeller. Speed kills, and sometimes there are issues bigger than the perceived "emergency." Stepping back and looking at the real picture may save a life. Maybe the emergency isn't such a big issue after all, maybe it is. One cannot make a blanket statement one way or the other; one must deal with each event as it occurs.

Bottom line? Deal with each event on it's own merits, according to the proceedures, training, and judgement that is in you. Beyond that, rely on God, and every other resource at your fingertips.

Anybody who has ever sat in the thunderous silence that surrounds Al Haynes when he speaks of his experience in a crippled DC-10 has heard a masterful presentation on the handling of an emergency. May none of us have to go through that, but thank God somebody did, and lived to share it with us. Just remember, no matter what is is that any one of us has experienced, it pales in comparison to that of others. All we can do is use the experience that is in us to make good judgements. Beyond that, it's God, and luck.
 
avbug

You should write a book! Or at least, an article for one of the magazines like Flying. I read your last post and couldn't stop reading. That is some exciting life you live, on the edge. I think, I would like to do that sort of exciting flying - and then common sense takes over and I say "YGSB!"

Godspeed in your flying. Sounds like God isn't just your co-pilot, he's right there pushing your wing back up.
 
Tri-holer said:
avbug

You should write a book! Or at least, an article for one of the magazines like Flying. I read your last post and couldn't stop reading. That is some exciting life you live, on the edge. I think, I would like to do that sort of exciting flying - and then common sense takes over and I say "YGSB!"

Godspeed in your flying. Sounds like God isn't just your co-pilot, he's right there pushing your wing back up.


Tri-Holer,
You took the words right out of my mouth; avbug should and must write a book. He has more diverse experience than anyone else on this board or in aviation period. He certainly has the skills needed to convey a message to low time or high time pilots. His background and writing skills coupled with his impeccable understanding of the regs would make it a hit, I would be the first to buy it! This mans talents would surely go to waste if he doesn't write that book.

What do you say avbug, you would be doing all the low timers a service that only you could provide with such wisdom, experience and especially heart! Please don't let us down, we need ya!

Not everyone agrees with everybody all the time, I agree with avbug most the time as do most people that read his posts.

Lets do a survey to see how many would buy avbug's book.:D
 
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At this rate, I am afraid, I doubt Avbug will live long enough to write a book. Most pilots fly in environments where they are very likely to make it home from work in one piece. Definately a different world from the one Avbug is describing.

With the number and severity of senarios Avbug has been describing surely he must see that it is just a matter of time?

A little realistic risk assessment is called for, though he said himself that some of the fire pilots think of themselves as "disposable", so I guess he knows how fragile his existance is.

Fire fighting is a noble job. Can't do it when your dead though. Please be careful Avbug.
 
AVBUG

AVBUG is quite simply the most dangerous pilot on this board.

He glorifies his job by stating that his very function is a constant on-going emergency. He romanticizes the callousness of his attitude by stating it is normal and every day rigors of the job.

If his job is as dangerous and hazard filled as he makes it sound and his situations as commonplace as he makes it seem then one thing is clear to me. I would declare an emergency every day. I would not allow the frequency of the hazards to drag me into a sense that because it happens all the time it isn't a danger and doesn't warrant the exact same response every time.

Fine, I have read the drivel about how it wouldn't make any difference and its a judgment call and some fires just aren't that big of a deal. Unfortunately, AVBUG would like to substitute experience for good judgment. He says to himself, "Well I came through that ok so I guess it wasn't really an emergency." The word for this is complacency. There is a phenomenon in aviation called the failing aviator syndrome. It is characterized by a pilot who begins to view very non normal and even dangerous events as commonplace. He begins to feel that he is impervious to danger and is so skilled that he can overcome any problem with his cunning and experience. In the extreme he will acquire NOFAD. No apparent fear of death. This happens when he has lived through enough and survived enough to have the feeling he is invincible. I don't mean to suggest AVBUG is there yet. But the tone and manner of his posts suggest he is close.

What really scares me is that he obviously has impressed many of the young pilots on this board by his Chuck Yeager stories and tales of the improbable. Aviation's number one concern is to operate your aircraft in a manner that gives you the greatest chance of survival. I don't care what the job is. His statement on the number of pilots in his line of work that have died really gives me pause. The poetic license that he employs in relating his stories like he is the hero of some novel scares the !@#$%^ out of me. It really concerns me that I share the air with a pilot with that sort of attitude. I'm still not sure he's for real but if he is, he's a real hazard to the profession and he doesn't even know it....no matter how many hours he's lived through. It's like the guy with 6 DUI's. He's toast he just doesn't know it yet.
 
So I guess we can't count on you to carry your weight, huh? Too bad. We could have used an intelligent guy like you in the fire service. It's a shame we won't have the opportunity to avail ourselves of your superior judgement. Ah well. If you change your mind...
 
Re: AVBUG

Clownpilot said:
AVBUG is quite simply the most dangerous pilot on this board.
I disagree...to a point. Avbug's posts are a product of the flying experience he has. I'm comfortable that he is very good at what he does. If there was a raging forest fire bearing down on my home, I'd certainly hope he was above it with a load of borate and water.

But I wouldn't put my family on a passenger aircraft he was flying...just as I'm sure he wouldn't bet ten cents on my chances as a tanker pilot. (Although I'll bet we could both learn...)

Anybody remember the movie Jaws? Hooper (Richard Dreyfus) represents those of us who fly modern airliners. Quint (Robert Shaw) is Avbug. Same industry, different jobs...and each job has a totally different set of rules and requires a different way of thinking. That doesn't mean that either one of them is wrong.

A word of caution: expressing views like Avbug's during an airline interview means not getting the job. Take it from someone who is the son of one chief pilot (at a different airline--no nepotism here) and a friend of several others. If you tell them that "an engine fire isn't an emergency but could become one," you just blew the interview.
 
Interesting. I've never had a problem in an interview, and I've provided realistic viewpoints every time. Might even say it's gotten me a job.

To date, I have yet to have a passenger complain, and I have a stack of letters or recommendation from former employers, pilots, and check airmen. It's just a few folks on the board here who seem to have the problem.

I fly Part 25 turbojet airplanes in passenger service as my regular employment, and have absolutely no difficulties at each check, during training, or flying the line. Never have. I just don't get worked up if a break a fingernail.

I'll go so far as to say I know a pilot who nearly lost his job for discharging a fire bottle at altitude after receiving a fire light. It was a circuit problem, not a fire. The employer, a certificate holder and operator, reprimanded the individual (I disagree with their actions, but it's not my place to do anything about it) over the incident, in which he put two bottles into that engine when there was no fire. He caused panic for the pax, and landed short of the destination.

Were I in his shoes, though he did act a little rashly in the way he went about it (based on crew reports), I would very likely have done exactly the same. I doubt I'd have done it with as much excitement or drama, or in as much of a rush. However, in absence of any proof that there wasn't a fire on board, I would have shut down per the checklist, and if necessary, discharged a bottle. I would have notified ATC, and landed as appropriate. Most likely I would have landed at the destination, which is also per the checklist, if certain parameters are met.

I don't know that I would have felt inclined to make a mayday broadcast, to shut the engine down with the T-handle and discharge the agent right away, or start an emergency descent to a field short of the destination as he did...again, it's not my place to say. I wasn't in the airplane, and only know about it from the reports. As I said, I disagree with the way he went about it, but the general actions are pretty much as I'd have done.

But then apparently I'm a very dangerous pilot. Right? Please dont' tell the FAA...no telling what they'll do. But wait! I'm an accident prevention counselor for the local FSDO. Perhaps I should turn myself in, stop giving safety seminars and counseling students and college classes. Perhaps I should give up my auxilliary assignment as Director of Safety for the company, do ya think? Perhaps I should quit instructing on the side, too. I don't want to be responsible for thousands of deaths. And quit fixing airplanes too...they need someone much more responsible to do that. Counts me out.

Why stop there? I could turn in my drivers license, and possibly sell my handguns and quit reloading. I might as well chuck the parachutes in the trash; no more skydiving for me. I'm dangerous. I'll wear thick gloves so I can't molest pets and small children while walking down the street...seeing as I can't drive anymore. Thank heavens there are people on this board who can set me straight. It's a good thing I tune in here, isn't it?

Maybe I'll just get started on that autobiographical novel; "Top ten reasons why I should throw myself off a tall building, and the top twenty reasons the world will be safer when I'm gone." Whaddayathink???

Or perhaps I'll just keep doing what I'm doing, because everyone who is around me (to include the FAA, employers, etc) has absolutely NO problem with who I am or what I do. Yeah...I think that's what I'll do.

And clownpilot, seeing as there's no rational ground for discussion, and sanity, maturity, and serenity is out the window, let's just meet out by the flagpole after school so I can kick your butt up around your ears. It may be the one thing I can do REALLY well. Whaddayasay?

PS: Typhoonpilot, who's to say your family hasn't been passenges on a trip I've flown already? Ya just never know.
 
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Avbug

Hey dude, I really am trying to stay off your back, but now you are threatening people with violence. So not only are you one great pilot, one great mechanic, but also a great fighter?

Is there an ultimate fighting championship message board where I can read about those exploits?( I am serious)

What planes do you have time in? Not a detailed list of everything you've touched, but how much total time PIC in heavy type 1 tankers? About, nothing precise, you know an estimate. You could fill out that profile column instead of assuming everyone knows your accomplishments. See I filled out mine, so everybody knows I am a podunk.

How much PIC and what type of part 25 plane are you talking about?

And lastly, between this and other boards you post on you pretty much live on a computer. It is hard to see how you also have time for a job and friends and fighting. Ease up, try some humor. Maybe have a beer. Who knows you might even meet a woman.
 
Avbug,

This probably goes without saying, but I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about anything Clownpilot has to say. Given most of his posts, in most of his threads, ignoring him is usually the best idea. Don't fuel his fire, so to speak (pardon the pun). ;)

Fly Safe.
 
avbug said:
Typhoonpilot, who's to say your family hasn't been passenges on a trip I've flown already? Ya just never know.
Well first of all, I'm not "Typhoonpilot." There's another guy out there that goes by that handle.

Secondly, as for any of my family members being on one of your flights, what can I say? I'm sure you're a fine pilot, but I think you're leading some of the younger students on this board astray on this issue.

Does anybody remember the original point of this thread? "What are some real-life situations where you would declare an emergency?"

I put it to all of you that in modern aviation, when something goes wrong, a pilot must remember the four fundamentals: (1) aviate, (2) navigate, (3) communicate, and (4) cover your a__, in that order. Declaring an emergency has very little to do with the first two fundamentals. It's related to the third, and it has everything to do with the fourth. It would be great to live in a world where "C.Y.A." didn't apply to pilots. We don't live in that world.

Like so many of the other airline pilots that have since abandoned this thread, I don't understand this decades-old fear of declaring an emergency, and I'm tired of arguing about it. I will leave you with a question that I have posed several times now, a question not even The Mighty Avbug has attempted to answer: why make it easier for the F.A.A. and/or your company to take action against you by not declaring an emergency--an urgency or distress condition--when one arises?

Engine failure in a twin? Yes, declare. Vacuum failure in IMC? No back-up for the vacuum system? Yes, declare. If the ability of the airplane to safely fly has been seriously affected, either by a mechanical failure or by some external cause, a declaration is appropriate. It doesn't mean you don't have the situation under control. It establishes a structure between you and A.T.C. that will make it easier for you to meet the emergency.

Would I reach up and yank the T-handle the moment I saw a red light come on? No. Why? Because I'm not a moron. I'm sorry, Avbug, but "young" and "low-time" do not mean "inept."

This thread is raising my blood-pressure; I'm not coming back. If any of you guys have questions on this issue and would like my input, PM me.
 
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>>Why stop there? I could turn in my drivers license, and possibly sell my handguns and quit reloading. I might as well chuck the parachutes in the trash; no more skydiving for me. I'm dangerous. I'll wear thick gloves so I can't molest pets and small children while walking down the street...seeing as I can't drive anymore. Thank heavens there are people on this board who can set me straight. It's a good thing I tune in here, isn't it?>>

Well, as for the skydiving..........Go ahead and toss the parachutes in the trash..........but continue your skydiving.

Turning in your pilot's license will be sufficient. Frankly, if your car starts on fire I don't really care whether you keep driving it or not.
As for molesting pets and children I have already stated that I believe you have mental problems; mostly having to do with a complete lack of connection to reality.

>>Maybe I'll just get started on that autobiographical novel; "Top ten reasons why I should throw myself off a tall building, and the top twenty reasons the world will be safer when I'm gone." Whaddayathink???>>

As I said, relinquishing your pilots license will suffice(assuming you actually have one).


>>And clownpilot, seeing as there's no rational ground for discussion, and sanity, maturity, and serenity is out the window, let's just meet out by the flagpole after school so I can kick your butt up around your ears. It may be the one thing I can do REALLY well. Whaddayasay?>>

Why doesn't that response surprise me. Please seek help.
 
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Wow! Is this the same Avbug that berated me for saying that I would treat a head cold with OTC Dayquil or Sudafed before flying? The same Avbug that, in so many words, suggested it would be better instead to call in sick until the symptoms subsided, presumably about 10 days? Talk about schizophrenia.

I think some of you are starting to see the curtain drawn on the Wizard. Keep pulling.
 
There is no double standard; you would be best to call in sick. Exactly as I said before. I would.

Go back and read all the threads. The origional question was about declaring an emergency, and in every case I have repeatedly stated: IF YOU NEED TO DECLARE, DECLARE, IF YOU DON'T NEED TO DECLARE, DON'T DECLARE.

Real simple, huh? Nothing inconsistant, no differing of standards. I've given examples of my own behavior to back up this statement, and examples of others with whom I'm associated. Each example has been consistant.

If you fly with a headcold, you're an idiot. If you elect not to fly when you have a headcold, then you've exercised good judgement. Clear?
 

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