declaring an emergency

[DarnNearaJet]

Avbug:

Do you fly passengers for a 121 airline?

PS: I have declared an emergency for an engine-shutdown. I received a letter of commendation. I can guarantee you that if I had not declared, I'd be looking for another job right now and hiring a lawyer to defend my ticket.

Please stop giving poor advice to impressionable young minds.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Originally posted by avbug
Two years ago I experienced five engine failures in a four month period.

I think I'd quit that outfit too. Who are you with, the Honduran Air Force?

Originally posted by DarnNearaJet
Avbug: Do you fly passengers for a 121 airline?

It doesn't sound like he does, no. I can't imagine a professional airline pilot--or any pilot--having this warped a definition of "emergency."

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I'm NOT getting into the debate whether to declare an emergency. I am saying that just because you get a Red light that comes on your dash doesn't necessarily an emergency make. Those of you who fly really old dogs know what I mean. There is plenty of young bucks out there who see a light and freak out, declare an emergency, rush though the check list, shut one down ect. ect. when there wasn't a thing wrong with the plane except a swicth or wiring harness that failed. The illuminating of a light means you had better take a deep breath and pay attention to what really is going wrong before you go do something rash that may put you in real danger. Go ahead call me a cowboy and flame away. Before you do spend some serious time flying old stuff that was out of warranty long before you were born. Put yourself in Avbug's shoes before you flame him he is'nt driving a Barbie Jet that still smells new.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[Typhoon1244]

I am saying that just because you get a Red light that comes on your dash doesn't necessarily an emergency make.

I agree. You don't have to fly old dogs to understand that concept.

There is plenty of young bucks out there who see a light and freak out, declare an emergency, rush though the check list, shut one down ect. ect. when there wasn't a thing wrong with the plane except a swicth or wiring harness that failed.

Anyone who "freaks out" and grabs a microphone as soon as a light comes on doesn't belong in aviation. Period.

The illuminating of a light means you had better take a deep breath and pay attention to what really is going wrong before you go do something rash that may put you in real danger.

I dunno, Klingon, it sounds to me like you and I are nearly in complete agreement. You need to go back and re-read Avbug's posts on this issue. If I understand him correctly, he believes anything short of a crash isn't an emergency.

Say you're at cruise at FL330 and the flight attendant has smoke coming from behind the galley. You kill the power to the galley and the smoke stops. If I'm correct, Avbug would not declare an emergency. I would because I have no way of knowing what might still be burning in there! (And if your "Old Dog's" wiring is as quirky as you suggest, you might have the same problem.) And that doesn't mean the declaration is going to magically fix the problem...but now I'm covered by the FAR's and ATC as I make my way to the nearest place with a long runway and a fire truck.

It's right there in the AIM: the time to declare an emergency is before the situation gets out of control...not after you've already exhausted all your alternatives.

Oh, and let's not resort to this "don't trust anyone under forty-years-old or 5,000 hours" crap. There've been an awful lot of airliners flown into mountains by guys with 10,000+ hours at the top of the seniority list. When I was flying down in Florida, it wasn't the student pilots that scared me. It was the guy in the Bonanza who hasn't cracked a book since he got his ticket back in 1965.

 

[avbug]

Typhoon (et al),

Before you get yourself worked up into a frenzy, yo should note that at NO time have I ever dictated that one should NOT declare an emergency. I stated that the events that I have experienced, in the type of operation and in the situation, (in context) were not emergencies. What you do is your own business.

I was not with the "Honduran Air Force" for the events to which you allude. Those occured during firefighting operations, which put airplanes in some extreme circumstances, and cause stresses and conditions not encountered in other types of flying. Those occured in large four engine airplanes, and were flown with a crew, not single pilot. My experiences in one of those airplanes pale in comparison to a fellow crew in the past month; the airplane exploded for them. (I experienced an explosion on board in that airplane several years previously).

You may not have occasion to be flying on instruments in close proximity to the ground in high winds and severe to extreme turbulence while your engines ingest burning objects that vary in size from a 2X4 to a whole tree. That doesn't mean that those who do fly into those conditions are unprofessional. On the contrary, the flight is in a state of emergency from the time the horn goes off...having an engine shutdown or a small fire to deal with is minor compared to the normal routine...the normal routine IS the emergency.

When you don't deal with it all the time, small things seem like big things. When you do deal with it all the time, big things can become routine. Two airplanes I formerly flew have come apart on the job this year, killing crews I flew with. I'm flying a type design that's had two airplanes of it's own shed wings, too. It's not a maintenance issue; it's the environment. Don't knock it if you haven't been there.

If I went about declaring an emergency for some of the things we've been discussing, I'd declare it when I get the dispatch slip, before taking off, and would reiterate it each time I check in with a new party. I didn't create the emergency, so I don't feel bad about enjoying dealing with it. If you want to see a round engine pilot sweat bullets, let him go three hours without a problem. The suspense is a killer.

Call me "warped" if you will. Until you have the experience to back it up, or have flown a few hours in my boots, then that assesment doesn't mean much to me. My definition is developed by personal experience. It's nothing to do with being "macho," or other kid-stuff. It's to do with having experienced these things before, and knowing what is worth getting excited about, and what isn't.

You may choose to get really excited about an onboard fire. In many cases, this may be warranted. I'm not about to tell someone not to declare an emergency, but I can state that of the fires I've experienced personally, none yet have amounted to much excitement. I've been in structural fires on the ground on a number of occasions, and wildland fires as well, that got my blood pumping a lot more, and that weren't nearly as easily put out. People tend to panic by nature when they see a fire; fire suggests an emergency by it's very essence. This isn't always the case. I've been in fires hot enough to melt the nomex on other firefighters heads, and melt my boots. Putting out a seat cushion or a little fuel fire in many cases just doesn't compare.

Every situation is different, and I have repeatedly stated that if you need to exercise emergency authority, then do it. You should understand that no formal declaration of an emergency is necessary to do this.

I was once in a recurrent class for the Learjet. The instructor, a man with many years in the Lear, was discussing an depressurization at altitude. He asked me the proceedure. I rattled off the litany; oxygen masks don, select one hundred percent. Thrust levers to idle, auto pilot disengage, spoilers extend...yada yada. When the immediate action items are complete, the proceedure goes on to say "if time and conditions permit..." and provides that the pilot should activate the oxygen mask mic switch and notify ATC.

The instructor insisted that this should be done first, before the descent is begun. He noted that one might descend into other traffic, and emphasized the need to communicate. I disagreed, and still do. Get oxygen, get started down, deal with the situation and fly the airplane, and then as the proceedure clearly states, if time and conditions permit, talk.

When I lost power at the V1 cut, it wasn't a 50% loss. It was one engine of four. It was the critical engine. Shutting down a radial engine isn't the same as shutting down a turbojet. Additionally, feathering with a hydromatic system isn't about just pushing a button. You have one shot in the event of oil loss, if that, and if you don't get it timed right, it comes out of feather, or doesn't go in all the way and this is a real problem. 300' is no time at a non-towered field to be wasting time talking to empty space about emergencies. If that prop isn't feathered pronto, and kept feathered, then the flight isn't going to maintain altitude. At 300' do you really think it's a time to be screwing around yodeling about what a bad day you're having, or is it a good time to take care of that airplane?

There's nothing cowboy or cavelier or unprofessional about dealing with the situation at hand and saving the yak-yak for later. To whom would I have declared an emergency? If someone other than a private pilot responded, how do you suppose they might have helped me? This wasn't an international field with crash rescue standing by. It was a normal every day operation that happened to require the full attention of both crewmembers. It so happened that base personnel who watched the departure called a local fire department as soon as we disappeared behind the trees.

Who do I fly for as my regular employment? That doesn't really matter, but I have yet to pass a check with less than flying colors; I have never had an employer or passenger complaint. I work closely with the FAA, and am even an Aviation Safety Counselor...all with no troubles at all. Employers, passengers, check airmen, and the FAA, as well as contracting agencies et al, don't have a problem with me...why do you??

I am temporarily fighting fire again, as it's my passion and love, and by a stroke of good fortune, it's something that I'm good at. I am on a leave of absence from my regular employment, as qualified initial attack pilots are in demand this year due to a high fire state. I don't have the luxury of picking nits over small minor matters. A number of personal associates have died on the job this year, and I'm doing my darndest not to join them. Does that make me cavalier or unprofessional? I'm not dead yet, so you tell me. Perhaps tomorrow, huh?

Poor advice to impressionable young minds? Come on! Let's just celebrate a heritage of inexperience, then. Why bring personal experience and observation in, when we could simply exist on school book plattitudes and lessons learned in the mighty simulator? Why drag real life into it? If these things concern stuff you haven't had to deal with, then perhaps it's worth listening...you might learn something.

 

[Clownpilot]

Stop this crap

AVBUG,

You gotta stop this. Somebody might actually believe this garbage, just not anybody who has experience as a pilot. Your account of your daily emergencies sound like you think you're in a movie or something. I have a strong suspicion that not only are you not a pilot, but that all your piloting 'experience' has been gained by watching movies. How can you actually post garbage like this? If you were taking 2X4's and trees down your engine on a daily basis you'd be dead instead of making up ludicrous garbage to post here.

If I refused to declare an emergency for engine failures and fires I would have failed every checkride I've ever been given. You just don't seem to have any grasp on reality at all. Do you know what would happen if I had an engine failure or fire with passengers on board, made an unscheduled landing not at my planned destination, and then told the chief pilot I didn't feel it warranted declaring an emergency? How about if the situation worsened and I banged up the airplane a little and got investigated by the feds? Man just stop it. I wondered why there was no info at all on your qualifications in your bio. You don't have any. Nor any sense. Go to the pretend pilot board. This one is for ACTUAL pilots.


>>You may not have occasion to be flying on instruments in close proximity to the ground in high winds and severe to extreme turbulence while your engines ingest burning objects that vary in size from a 2X4 to a whole tree.>>

The definition of extreme turbulence is that the airplane is completely UNCONTROLLABLE and will not respond to any inputs made by the pilot. Do you actually expect us to believe you fly close to the ground in an uncontrollable aircraft while ingesting trees into your engine???????

Holy !@#$%^&. Seek counseling.

>>That doesn't mean that those who do fly into those conditions are unprofessional. On the contrary, the flight is in a state of emergency from the time the horn goes off...having an engine shutdown or a small fire to deal with is minor compared to the normal routine...the normal routine IS the emergency. >>

This job I'd quit tomorrow if it really existed.

You're either 12 years old and living a fantasy or just a nutcase.

 

[aggiepilot87]

"Mustang has an emergency, I'm losing coolent"..."why haven't you rolled the trucks?"

I'm just getting in on the tail end of this discussion, but this sure puts thing in perspective for me. if that's the criteria for Mr. Hoover, then it's works for me. Thanks for the post, Jim. Where in Tejas are you? I'm serving time in Houston myself.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

Clownpilot,

Avbug, it is entertaining. Thanks

 

[cjh]

Avbug,

I'm so envious of the lifetime of experience that allows one to treat the situations you describe as "normal". Probably most of the pilots on this board have experienced some types of abnormal situations, and as they handle them, the confidence levels increase, and the next time it happens, it's nbd. "Experience" is such a relative thing. It amounts to being comfortable dealing with whatever situation the aviation gods throw at you, because you've been there before.

I have a friend who experienced his first windshield failure at FL300 a few months ago. Scared him sh%%less. It happened again in a different plane, and the second time, it wasn't such a big deal. Such is the way of experience.

So tell me, when you were a green pilot, DID those first time run-ins with abnormal situations create a pucker factor? Understanding that we never stop learning, but at what point did you begin to feel you were really the master of the aircraft?

 

[gsrcrsx68]

uhhh