declaring an emergency

[DarnNearaJet]

Avbug:

Do you fly passengers for a 121 airline?

PS: I have declared an emergency for an engine-shutdown. I received a letter of commendation. I can guarantee you that if I had not declared, I'd be looking for another job right now and hiring a lawyer to defend my ticket.

Please stop giving poor advice to impressionable young minds.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Originally posted by avbug
Two years ago I experienced five engine failures in a four month period.

I think I'd quit that outfit too. Who are you with, the Honduran Air Force?

Originally posted by DarnNearaJet
Avbug: Do you fly passengers for a 121 airline?

It doesn't sound like he does, no. I can't imagine a professional airline pilot--or any pilot--having this warped a definition of "emergency."

 

[KlingonLRDRVR]

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I'm NOT getting into the debate whether to declare an emergency. I am saying that just because you get a Red light that comes on your dash doesn't necessarily an emergency make. Those of you who fly really old dogs know what I mean. There is plenty of young bucks out there who see a light and freak out, declare an emergency, rush though the check list, shut one down ect. ect. when there wasn't a thing wrong with the plane except a swicth or wiring harness that failed. The illuminating of a light means you had better take a deep breath and pay attention to what really is going wrong before you go do something rash that may put you in real danger. Go ahead call me a cowboy and flame away. Before you do spend some serious time flying old stuff that was out of warranty long before you were born. Put yourself in Avbug's shoes before you flame him he is'nt driving a Barbie Jet that still smells new.

KlingonLRDRVR

 

[Typhoon1244]

I am saying that just because you get a Red light that comes on your dash doesn't necessarily an emergency make.

I agree. You don't have to fly old dogs to understand that concept.

There is plenty of young bucks out there who see a light and freak out, declare an emergency, rush though the check list, shut one down ect. ect. when there wasn't a thing wrong with the plane except a swicth or wiring harness that failed.

Anyone who "freaks out" and grabs a microphone as soon as a light comes on doesn't belong in aviation. Period.

The illuminating of a light means you had better take a deep breath and pay attention to what really is going wrong before you go do something rash that may put you in real danger.

I dunno, Klingon, it sounds to me like you and I are nearly in complete agreement. You need to go back and re-read Avbug's posts on this issue. If I understand him correctly, he believes anything short of a crash isn't an emergency.

Say you're at cruise at FL330 and the flight attendant has smoke coming from behind the galley. You kill the power to the galley and the smoke stops. If I'm correct, Avbug would not declare an emergency. I would because I have no way of knowing what might still be burning in there! (And if your "Old Dog's" wiring is as quirky as you suggest, you might have the same problem.) And that doesn't mean the declaration is going to magically fix the problem...but now I'm covered by the FAR's and ATC as I make my way to the nearest place with a long runway and a fire truck.

It's right there in the AIM: the time to declare an emergency is before the situation gets out of control...not after you've already exhausted all your alternatives.

Oh, and let's not resort to this "don't trust anyone under forty-years-old or 5,000 hours" crap. There've been an awful lot of airliners flown into mountains by guys with 10,000+ hours at the top of the seniority list. When I was flying down in Florida, it wasn't the student pilots that scared me. It was the guy in the Bonanza who hasn't cracked a book since he got his ticket back in 1965.

 

[avbug]

Typhoon (et al),

Before you get yourself worked up into a frenzy, yo should note that at NO time have I ever dictated that one should NOT declare an emergency. I stated that the events that I have experienced, in the type of operation and in the situation, (in context) were not emergencies. What you do is your own business.

I was not with the "Honduran Air Force" for the events to which you allude. Those occured during firefighting operations, which put airplanes in some extreme circumstances, and cause stresses and conditions not encountered in other types of flying. Those occured in large four engine airplanes, and were flown with a crew, not single pilot. My experiences in one of those airplanes pale in comparison to a fellow crew in the past month; the airplane exploded for them. (I experienced an explosion on board in that airplane several years previously).

You may not have occasion to be flying on instruments in close proximity to the ground in high winds and severe to extreme turbulence while your engines ingest burning objects that vary in size from a 2X4 to a whole tree. That doesn't mean that those who do fly into those conditions are unprofessional. On the contrary, the flight is in a state of emergency from the time the horn goes off...having an engine shutdown or a small fire to deal with is minor compared to the normal routine...the normal routine IS the emergency.

When you don't deal with it all the time, small things seem like big things. When you do deal with it all the time, big things can become routine. Two airplanes I formerly flew have come apart on the job this year, killing crews I flew with. I'm flying a type design that's had two airplanes of it's own shed wings, too. It's not a maintenance issue; it's the environment. Don't knock it if you haven't been there.

If I went about declaring an emergency for some of the things we've been discussing, I'd declare it when I get the dispatch slip, before taking off, and would reiterate it each time I check in with a new party. I didn't create the emergency, so I don't feel bad about enjoying dealing with it. If you want to see a round engine pilot sweat bullets, let him go three hours without a problem. The suspense is a killer.

Call me "warped" if you will. Until you have the experience to back it up, or have flown a few hours in my boots, then that assesment doesn't mean much to me. My definition is developed by personal experience. It's nothing to do with being "macho," or other kid-stuff. It's to do with having experienced these things before, and knowing what is worth getting excited about, and what isn't.

You may choose to get really excited about an onboard fire. In many cases, this may be warranted. I'm not about to tell someone not to declare an emergency, but I can state that of the fires I've experienced personally, none yet have amounted to much excitement. I've been in structural fires on the ground on a number of occasions, and wildland fires as well, that got my blood pumping a lot more, and that weren't nearly as easily put out. People tend to panic by nature when they see a fire; fire suggests an emergency by it's very essence. This isn't always the case. I've been in fires hot enough to melt the nomex on other firefighters heads, and melt my boots. Putting out a seat cushion or a little fuel fire in many cases just doesn't compare.

Every situation is different, and I have repeatedly stated that if you need to exercise emergency authority, then do it. You should understand that no formal declaration of an emergency is necessary to do this.

I was once in a recurrent class for the Learjet. The instructor, a man with many years in the Lear, was discussing an depressurization at altitude. He asked me the proceedure. I rattled off the litany; oxygen masks don, select one hundred percent. Thrust levers to idle, auto pilot disengage, spoilers extend...yada yada. When the immediate action items are complete, the proceedure goes on to say "if time and conditions permit..." and provides that the pilot should activate the oxygen mask mic switch and notify ATC.

The instructor insisted that this should be done first, before the descent is begun. He noted that one might descend into other traffic, and emphasized the need to communicate. I disagreed, and still do. Get oxygen, get started down, deal with the situation and fly the airplane, and then as the proceedure clearly states, if time and conditions permit, talk.

When I lost power at the V1 cut, it wasn't a 50% loss. It was one engine of four. It was the critical engine. Shutting down a radial engine isn't the same as shutting down a turbojet. Additionally, feathering with a hydromatic system isn't about just pushing a button. You have one shot in the event of oil loss, if that, and if you don't get it timed right, it comes out of feather, or doesn't go in all the way and this is a real problem. 300' is no time at a non-towered field to be wasting time talking to empty space about emergencies. If that prop isn't feathered pronto, and kept feathered, then the flight isn't going to maintain altitude. At 300' do you really think it's a time to be screwing around yodeling about what a bad day you're having, or is it a good time to take care of that airplane?

There's nothing cowboy or cavelier or unprofessional about dealing with the situation at hand and saving the yak-yak for later. To whom would I have declared an emergency? If someone other than a private pilot responded, how do you suppose they might have helped me? This wasn't an international field with crash rescue standing by. It was a normal every day operation that happened to require the full attention of both crewmembers. It so happened that base personnel who watched the departure called a local fire department as soon as we disappeared behind the trees.

Who do I fly for as my regular employment? That doesn't really matter, but I have yet to pass a check with less than flying colors; I have never had an employer or passenger complaint. I work closely with the FAA, and am even an Aviation Safety Counselor...all with no troubles at all. Employers, passengers, check airmen, and the FAA, as well as contracting agencies et al, don't have a problem with me...why do you??

I am temporarily fighting fire again, as it's my passion and love, and by a stroke of good fortune, it's something that I'm good at. I am on a leave of absence from my regular employment, as qualified initial attack pilots are in demand this year due to a high fire state. I don't have the luxury of picking nits over small minor matters. A number of personal associates have died on the job this year, and I'm doing my darndest not to join them. Does that make me cavalier or unprofessional? I'm not dead yet, so you tell me. Perhaps tomorrow, huh?

Poor advice to impressionable young minds? Come on! Let's just celebrate a heritage of inexperience, then. Why bring personal experience and observation in, when we could simply exist on school book plattitudes and lessons learned in the mighty simulator? Why drag real life into it? If these things concern stuff you haven't had to deal with, then perhaps it's worth listening...you might learn something.

 

[Clownpilot]

Stop this crap

AVBUG,

You gotta stop this. Somebody might actually believe this garbage, just not anybody who has experience as a pilot. Your account of your daily emergencies sound like you think you're in a movie or something. I have a strong suspicion that not only are you not a pilot, but that all your piloting 'experience' has been gained by watching movies. How can you actually post garbage like this? If you were taking 2X4's and trees down your engine on a daily basis you'd be dead instead of making up ludicrous garbage to post here.

If I refused to declare an emergency for engine failures and fires I would have failed every checkride I've ever been given. You just don't seem to have any grasp on reality at all. Do you know what would happen if I had an engine failure or fire with passengers on board, made an unscheduled landing not at my planned destination, and then told the chief pilot I didn't feel it warranted declaring an emergency? How about if the situation worsened and I banged up the airplane a little and got investigated by the feds? Man just stop it. I wondered why there was no info at all on your qualifications in your bio. You don't have any. Nor any sense. Go to the pretend pilot board. This one is for ACTUAL pilots.


>>You may not have occasion to be flying on instruments in close proximity to the ground in high winds and severe to extreme turbulence while your engines ingest burning objects that vary in size from a 2X4 to a whole tree.>>

The definition of extreme turbulence is that the airplane is completely UNCONTROLLABLE and will not respond to any inputs made by the pilot. Do you actually expect us to believe you fly close to the ground in an uncontrollable aircraft while ingesting trees into your engine???????

Holy !@#$%^&. Seek counseling.

>>That doesn't mean that those who do fly into those conditions are unprofessional. On the contrary, the flight is in a state of emergency from the time the horn goes off...having an engine shutdown or a small fire to deal with is minor compared to the normal routine...the normal routine IS the emergency. >>

This job I'd quit tomorrow if it really existed.

You're either 12 years old and living a fantasy or just a nutcase.

 

[aggiepilot87]

"Mustang has an emergency, I'm losing coolent"..."why haven't you rolled the trucks?"

I'm just getting in on the tail end of this discussion, but this sure puts thing in perspective for me. if that's the criteria for Mr. Hoover, then it's works for me. Thanks for the post, Jim. Where in Tejas are you? I'm serving time in Houston myself.

 

[gsrcrsx68]

Clownpilot,

Avbug, it is entertaining. Thanks

 

[cjh]

Avbug,

I'm so envious of the lifetime of experience that allows one to treat the situations you describe as "normal". Probably most of the pilots on this board have experienced some types of abnormal situations, and as they handle them, the confidence levels increase, and the next time it happens, it's nbd. "Experience" is such a relative thing. It amounts to being comfortable dealing with whatever situation the aviation gods throw at you, because you've been there before.

I have a friend who experienced his first windshield failure at FL300 a few months ago. Scared him sh%%less. It happened again in a different plane, and the second time, it wasn't such a big deal. Such is the way of experience.

So tell me, when you were a green pilot, DID those first time run-ins with abnormal situations create a pucker factor? Understanding that we never stop learning, but at what point did you begin to feel you were really the master of the aircraft?

 

[gsrcrsx68]

uhhh

 

[TWA Dude]

Re: oh yeah, I almost forgot

The first time I used the "E" word was on my ATP checkride in a Seminole. We were on downwind vectors for an ILS, weather was cool and CAVU. One engine sputtered and lost most power but was still running. I started to troubleshoot it when the DE said "feather it!" I feathered, declared emergency, and told them no need to roll the equipment but just to have them on standby. (A superfluous statement since the equipment is always on standby!) The landing was uneventful.

Did a true emergency exist for me? No. Everything was under control and I was calm. Was it appropriate to use the "E" word? Yes! It was free and there was zero paperwork or phone calls involved. Call it CYA or being cautious but it certainly wasn't crying wolf. I think it's better to use the "E" word and wonder later whether you needed to than to not use when you might've.

A few years back a TWA flight on a transcon (a 757 or 767) lost an engine around two hours out from it's destination. After completing the checklists the captain elected to continue on to his destination. The FAA nailed him and we got a new policy that an engine shutdown requires an emergency declaration and a landing at the nearest suitable airport. (The nearest suitable airport need not be the closest slab of concrete, subject to captain's discretion.) Sometimes it's amusing what pilots do.

As far as Avbug, I don't agree with a lot of the criticism he's receiving. Flying passengers for hire is a lot different than operating in an inherently dangerous environment. Avoiding use of the "E" word may be silly at times (see above example) but isn't necessarily a dangerous action. Aviate, Navigate, and Communicate is still the priority in my book.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I'm beginning to understand.

Avbug, you've been flying in situations that were emergencies from beginning to end. I don't know if you've ever read my favorite book, The Caine Mutiny...I'm reminded of a passage from it:

"Sure, the book way is the right way," spoke up the first lieutenant, "for the right ship. By the book, though, the Caine should be in the boneyard. Maybe this ship has to be run screwy because it's screwy for her to be afloat at all--"

Whether the rest of us like it or not, there are places on this world where you can't fly "by the book" and survive...or at least stay in business. (I don't have any first-hand experience with these kinds of flight operations--outside of the military--but I imagine they would include bush flying, air ambulance, fire-fighting, third-world freight operations, etc.) And I suspect that if the F.A.A. stepped into these areas and clamped down, they would be almost unable to function.

Here's the key: the "rules" of these two types of flying are not interchangable! If I declared an emergency in Avbug's ship because we hit a tree with #4, I'd be fired. If Avbug refused to declare an emergency (and at least try to notify his dispatcher) in my ship after someone discovered a fire in the lavatory, he'd be fired.

EMERGENCY - A distress or urgency condition. (From the Pilot/Controller Glossary)

An "emergency" is not a "young buck" running around like a chicken with its head cut off. It's not a prima donna airline captain with a coffee stain on his shirt. An emergency is a situation where decisions and action are required right now, and the declaration itself establishes the legal and procedural framework within which those decisions can be made and action can be taken.

A fire-bomber is probably in an "urgency condition" from the moment he shows up at work. It's just like the military: the rules that apply to a B-1 crew flying a training mission in Nevada just don't work for a Sea Stallion crew being shot at in the Persian Gulf. But, that Stallion driver can not jump back into his 767 after the war is over and operate the same way he did when he was being shot at!

Furthermore, if the guy in the Sea Stallion screws up, chances are he won't be around to worry about it. If he screws up in the 767, he has to brace himself for (1) official inquiries where everything he did will be questioned, (2) the F.A.A.'s disciplinary action, and (3) possible termination by his employer. Many airline pilots have survived accidents only to be fired afterward.

Why make it easier for the feds and your company to prosecute you by neglecting the simple step of declaring an emergency?

In Avbug's line of work, he has to be effective.

In my line of work, I have to be effective, safe, and legal.

It depends on the individual's personality which transition is easier, throwing the book away versus strictly adhering to the F.A.A.'s and company's policies.

So, Avbug, I can't agree with everything you've said, but at least I understand where you're coming from, and I've got a lot of respect for the flying you've apparently done. But if you can't agree that you have to operate an airliner differently from the way you operate a fire-bomber, you're a fool.

For those of you who are still learning, what I said before still stands: if you're in a situation that is significantly different from normal operations, and you thionk there's a chance that someone in or around your airplane could get hurt...or that the airplane could be damaged...fly the airplane, deal with the problem, and then, when you have time, declare an emergency!

One last thing: remember what kind of flying Avbug does and remember his attitude about fire. Then ask anyone who flys for Air Canada or AirTran how critical they think fire is. If you've got a fire anywhere on your airplane, it's an emergency! Declare it!

 

[rumpletumbler]

Quote:

You may not have occasion to be flying on instruments in close proximity to the ground in high winds and severe to extreme turbulence while your engines ingest burning objects that vary in size from a 2X4 to a whole tree. That doesn't mean that those who do fly into those conditions are unprofessional.

End Quote.

Avbug,

I've always enjoyed your posts. Is it possible that this particular comment could be somewhat exaggerated? I'm not sure what engines you run but don't you think the manufacturer would boast of it being able to ingest a whole tree and still run etc? I mean that would be a great selling point and something they would probably want to demonstrate at airshows. Who could resist an engine that tough?

RT

 

[avbug]

It's not an exaggeration. Anybody who has been in a large fire knows this, too.

I needn't defend or prove myself; I get paid to fly airplanes into fires. I set out toward this end when I began flying at age fifteen, and have done the jobs and the flying over the years that got me into the position. I am not a pilot wannabe, or a mental patient, and I resent the implication. Nothing I have described or stated is made up, fake, or imagined. This is based one experience on the job.

Presently I am assigned to a single engine air tanker (SEAT), a Dromader M18T. I have until September 1 remaining on fire contract before I return to my regular job, or longer if extended.

Go tell the NYFD firefighters that lost friends and did their job that they're full of crap. You probably won't, because they're doing their job, taking the risks, and getting **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** little thanks. Don't tell me I'm full of it, either; I have a background doing fire in the air and on the ground, and weather some of the brightsparks that responded like it or not, that's where I have come from. I have done a number of different types of flying over the years, and hold all the perepherial certificates such as FE and Mechanic (A&P). However, fire is my first love and that's why I'm doing it right now. You don't have to appreciate what I do; I don't ask for that and don't expect it. You're pushing it a bit by telling me I'm a mental case.

I've lost five friends and associates in the past couple of months, and they died in airplanes I formerly piloted. That may be so much fantasy to you, but it's very real to me, and I assure you it's **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** real to them, and to their families. In the past year, I've lost 19 friends and associates, and this season is NOT over yet.

Before you go criticising "old crap" equipment, bear in mind that it's much younger in terms of total hours than most of what's flying the line under Part 121 right now. Many tankers have less than six or eight thousand hours total time; age is not relevant. Don't squawk about old equipment until you have experience with it and know what it can do. Recently we have seen several cases of new modern airline aricraft experiencing fatal structural inflight failures, one involving modern composite construction. So before you knock the DC-4 and other excellent aircraft, rethink your stance. It makes no sense. Aside from that, what do you suggest gets used to replace these aircraft?

Do large pieces of wood fly around in the fire? You bet. On large fires in ponderosa and lodgepole, often flame lengths exceed 300' above the canopy. These fires normally exceed 1,100 to 1,500 degrees, and can be much hotter. A great deal of lifting action occurs, and with it go tree branches, and sometimes an entire tree. I have had a number of wing and engine strikes on smaller objects which approximate the diameter of a 2X4, and larger objects up to tree size. The largest size was a moderate to large piece of Juniper I took on the right wing.

On a radial engine, these things seldom present a big problem. In a turbine engine, it's a very big problem. In either case, dense smoke can cause power loss; I've had it stick bleed valves on the T-56A9 on the C-130, causing compressor stalls and power loss/engine failure. Most of the engine failures on the round engines (R-2600, R-3450, R-4360) have been lifted heads or other cylinder failures, or propeller/governor malfunctions.

Do I operate an airplane with passengers aboard the same as a tanker? No, of course not. However, I do temper my actions somewhat based on my overall experience. One carries over to the other. When flying a crewed tanker, I run full checklists, and execute proceedures just as I would in an airplane with passengers aboard. The maneuvering is just a little different, a little lower, and a little more violent. When flying with passengers, I approach every moment of the flight fully expecting something to go wrong, and anticipating what to do about it. Habit from flying fire, and other types of flying. When something does go wrong, I deal with it as I judge to be appropriate at the time, based on the situation.

I had not flown fire for two years prior to taking a leave of absence this season. I took it to fill in for a pilot on very short notice. I have not flown SEAT ops before, but was granted a Level 1 (initial attack) card based on prior experience in fire and ag and carding. The OAS has no problem with what I'm doing right now, or my experience and background, nor does the BLM, to whom I am contracted. It seems the only expert in my environment who finds me to be in a fantasy world and dillousional is gsrcrsx68. In his/her case it really doesn't matter; he or she isn't providing my paycheck nor signing my OAS 23's at the end of the week.

But hey, thanks for questioning my integrity. I'm sure I did something terrible to deserve it, right? You don't need to be grateful one day when your property gets threatened, but the least you can do is back off and let me do my job. As it is, I am sitting under the wing of an airplane for 11-14 hours daily, waiting to go. There is no running water, no electricity, and there are no indoor toilets. There is no air conditioning. I am flying a heavy load into conditions that quite frankly would likely cause most folks to have second thoughts. I'm doing it for a fraction of the pay that those folks are getting for doing a fraction of the work I do. Nobody does this for money; we all have our own reasons, and I do have mine.

We're referred to as "tanker trash," and we're sometimes considered to be a disposable assett. There aren't even death benifits when we get killed on a public fire. Each of the five recent deaths in the heavies (T-130, T-123) will receive nothing; their families no compensation, unlike the firefighters on the ground. We see high fatality rates; it's not a safe environment. Some environments will NEVER be safe; this is one of them. Since 1969, 135% of the pilots have been killed on the job. That's everybody and a third of the origonal number. You don't have to give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, but kindly don't belittle us, or me, or our experience on the job.

I am doing a public service, and in a very real sense, I am serving my country. Don't knock it. I have removed my white shirt and shiny shoes to wear dingy nomex and scuffed boots, and white seat stains mixed with oil and grease. I am not living in a comfortable or glamorous world. And to boot, I get to put up with garbage from people like gsrcrsx68 or Clownpilot. I enjoy what I'm doing now; I thought I would never do it again. I don't enjoy reading the garbage posts by people who obviously haven't been there, and certainly haven't done that.

Fellas, when you can post from experience instead of shooting off your mouth about subjects about which you know nothing, let's have an intelligent conversation. Until then, bug off.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Well I wasn't trying to belittle what you do I just find it hard to believe that one could get whacked with those size objects and continue to remain aloft. I guess its not so much that it couldn't be done but that I've never flown anything that I believe could withstand that kind of abuse. In any case I hope that I haven't come across as thinking you were nuts etc. because I don't.

RT