DarnNearaJet
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2002
- Posts
- 174
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
declaring an emergency
- Thread starter mrflyguy
- Start date
- Watchers 27
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
I've had two. The first was smoke in the CP. We lost the #1 inverter, fried the windshield heat controller and had lightes on everywhere. The second was a windshield failure at FL 350. Neither were any fun. We declared an emergency, and ATC handled us with excellent service and got us on the ground fast.
Saabslime
Dysfunctional family
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2001
- Posts
- 509
Avbug, if you don't consider declaring an emergency necessary during an engine failure, fire, etc. I would consider you more of a cowboy than a professional aviator. I understand what you're saying but if you have a problem that warrents returning to the airport immediately, its an emergency period. Just say so.
Typhoon1244
Member in Good Standing
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2002
- Posts
- 3,078
I've been thinking this over, and I've decided I was too diplomatic before.
If you've got two engines installed on your airplane, and one of them isn't working, and you're in flight...THAT'S AN EMERGENCY, and you need to declare it as such.
There are certain companies who strongly discourage--to the point of termination--declaring an emergency. AirTran is one of them. They discourage this because they're worried about the "bad press" an emergency could generate. I'm sorry that this attitude about emergencies is being perpetuated.
If things are not normal, and there's even a chance that someone in or around your aircraft could get hurt, darn it, declare!
Avbug, you scare me.
If you've got two engines installed on your airplane, and one of them isn't working, and you're in flight...THAT'S AN EMERGENCY, and you need to declare it as such.
There are certain companies who strongly discourage--to the point of termination--declaring an emergency. AirTran is one of them. They discourage this because they're worried about the "bad press" an emergency could generate. I'm sorry that this attitude about emergencies is being perpetuated.
If things are not normal, and there's even a chance that someone in or around your aircraft could get hurt, darn it, declare!
Avbug, you scare me.
njcapt
Freak power candidate
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,096
His advice scares me, too.Typhoon1244 said:
I can't imagine what kind of career experience he has that would cause him to have such a cavalier attitude towards potentially career affecting incidents. Maybe my time flying for 121 airlines has affected my feelings regarding declaring emergencies, but I believe that ANY time you have the possibility of bending the aircraft on landing or have some significant reduction in performance (engines, brakes, flaps - not just one redundant system that powers them) you declare. Jeez... at most airlines you just fill out an irregularity report and the Chief Pilot's office handles the feds.
What is the downside of declaring? Too macho to admit that you might need assistance? Afraid of drawing attention to yourself? You owe it to your passengers, the owner of the aircraft, the guy who lands behind you as you are trailing oil or parts, and the airport operators to make your situation known AND set the proper remedies in motion.
JimNtexas
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 1,590
I just remembered something. About 15 years ago I was at an air show in Twin Falls Idaho. Bob Hoover was performing in his P-51, I was listening to the tower frequency, which was also the show control frequency.
All of sudden he rolled out of a manuver and said "Mustang has an emergency, I'm losing coolent". Sure enough, I saw a small vapor trail coming out of the engine.
He had plenty of energy, and I have no doubt whatsoever he could have just landed and 99% of the people wouldn't have noticed anything. He didn't even need traffic priority.
As he turned base he said "why haven't you rolled the trucks?" He shut down the engine on rollout and coasted to the turnoff, stopping in front of show center.
I guess if Bob Hoover isn't too proud to declare an emergency, then I'm not either.
Jim
All of sudden he rolled out of a manuver and said "Mustang has an emergency, I'm losing coolent". Sure enough, I saw a small vapor trail coming out of the engine.
He had plenty of energy, and I have no doubt whatsoever he could have just landed and 99% of the people wouldn't have noticed anything. He didn't even need traffic priority.
As he turned base he said "why haven't you rolled the trucks?" He shut down the engine on rollout and coasted to the turnoff, stopping in front of show center.
I guess if Bob Hoover isn't too proud to declare an emergency, then I'm not either.
Jim
Typhoon1244
Member in Good Standing
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2002
- Posts
- 3,078
Well said.In Avbugs defense there is quite a difference losing one engine in a turboprop vs 747-400.
Our company policy(approved by FAA- probably 50 years ago) is not to declare an emmergency for 1 engine failure...I am sure the captain would depending on the circumstances.
My personal thoughts and experience- I have never seen anyone criticized for declaring.. I have seen the faa step in when in their opinion they think you should have declared and even taken certificate action.
(im moving and have packed my books) but somewhere in the AIM-emmergency section they have a paragraph encouraging people to declare an emmergency and to take advantage of the assistance atc can give before the situation deteriates.( What good does it do to declare an emmergency right before you go down in flames? It is a little to late)
Also it is a required report when certain failures occur..Plus your company will have to report these... so you are not going to hide anything.. you might as well help yourself a little and C.Y.A
Our company policy(approved by FAA- probably 50 years ago) is not to declare an emmergency for 1 engine failure...I am sure the captain would depending on the circumstances.
My personal thoughts and experience- I have never seen anyone criticized for declaring.. I have seen the faa step in when in their opinion they think you should have declared and even taken certificate action.
(im moving and have packed my books) but somewhere in the AIM-emmergency section they have a paragraph encouraging people to declare an emmergency and to take advantage of the assistance atc can give before the situation deteriates.( What good does it do to declare an emmergency right before you go down in flames? It is a little to late)
Also it is a required report when certain failures occur..Plus your company will have to report these... so you are not going to hide anything.. you might as well help yourself a little and C.Y.A
Y'all can put away the lynch ropes. We've had this conversation before. Just because you don't have the experience, don't knock the insight.
Do I consider an engine failure an emergency? In most cases, most of the engine failures I've had, no. I've had them in single engine piston airplanes, and multi engine turbine airplanes, and not yet has one become an emergency. That's not to say it won't. However, it hasn't yet. Those who are going to blast me for such a "cowboy" or "cavalier" attitude should tell me all about their vast experience having engine failures or inflight fires, and I'll be happy to listen.
It has nothing to do with being "macho." That's for wet behind the ears kids to who such things mean a tinkers **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. For me, it makes no difference.
Two years ago I experienced five engine failures in a four month period. Before anyone yaks off about poor maintenance issues, make sure you know what you're talking about and have experience in extreme environments where these things occur, lest you speak far out of turn. I've heard it all before, and usually by those without the experience to talk, or the place to stand in.
One of those failures was a V1 cut. It involved an engine rollback just prior to v1 (which occurs when taking the runway in that operation, because once the power comes up, you're committed). After shutdown, we managed 300' in the pattern for a return and landed. The base rolled crash rescue for us; we were too busy with the airplane to worry about talking to anybody, nor would it have helped. Was that an emergency? It was certainly a handfull, but declaring anything, and talking to anybody was absolutely out of the question at the time.
I recall posting comments about my view on inflight emergencies once some time ago here. I received all kinds of scathing editorials and private messages by those who had experienced the gamut in the simulator, but never in real life. Some time later an individual wrote back and stated that he had learned what it was I was talking about, and I believe him. He has the experience to know, now.
I knew an individual who left a position with an operator to go to work for an airline. He was assigned an experienced captain, for IOE line work. The captain mentioned that he had dealt with an in-flight emergency only a week before. Interested to learn the new business, this individual asked about the emergency. The captain said he had lost his primary inverter.
The individual asked what the emergency had been. That was it. The primary inverter. Ahh. The captain asked the individual what sort of experience he had with emergencies. The individual rattled off a list of things that had occured in the past year, including hydraulic failures, fires, structural cracks and failures, etc. The captain was aghast. The individual quit a few days later; he said he couldn't identify with people who thought something so piddly was an emergency; he went back to the operator to work. In a way, I feel the same.
Then again, I've worked around enough people that feel a spot on their white shirt is an emergency, I have developed a certain level of contempt for them. I've met enough flight instructors who are afraid of the student and the airplane that I'm wary of pilots and instructors until they prove themselves. My present temporary employer hired a pilot last year to fly the airplane I'm flying, doing the job I'm doing. That pilot had his first fire in the airplane, and immediately quit when he landed. During a going fire. He was terrified of the airplane and what he was required to do with it, and the conditions he was required to fly into, and the circumstances under which he had to do it. Quit on the spot after one sortie. To him, I imagine life itself is a big emergency. Better he quit than he kill himself and take a good airplane out of service.
An engine failure is NOT an emergency of itself. Certainly it can be, and I did clearly state before that if emergency authority is necessary, it should be used. However, I have too much experience with these things in actual fact to believe that any one thing is automatically an emergency, bar nothing. It's just not true. I've had fires and fire indications many times, and not yet has one developed into an emergency. I've dealt with them and continued the operation as necessary. This isn't cowboy or macho; it's doing a job professionally and in the manner that the job requires, and getting the job done.
You might think running an airplane down a steep mountain slope in smoke and flame is cowboy, but you'd be wrong. You may think flying an airplane that can't climb but a few hundred feet per minute in rough terrain and high winds is unprofessional, but it would only indicate a lack of experience to say so. You may think that flying under a powerline is foolhardy, but you would have to be very inexperienced in that type of operation to not know it isn't, that it's sometimes necessary in certain kinds of professional aviation.
Don't simply make blanket statements in areas where you have no experience. Certainly don't blast me for stating otherwise, as I do have the experience to make those statements. I was there; the moments didn't constitute an emergency. Perhaps for someone else, or under other circumstances, they might have been emergencies. It is not my place to say.
Do I consider an engine failure an emergency? In most cases, most of the engine failures I've had, no. I've had them in single engine piston airplanes, and multi engine turbine airplanes, and not yet has one become an emergency. That's not to say it won't. However, it hasn't yet. Those who are going to blast me for such a "cowboy" or "cavalier" attitude should tell me all about their vast experience having engine failures or inflight fires, and I'll be happy to listen.
It has nothing to do with being "macho." That's for wet behind the ears kids to who such things mean a tinkers **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. For me, it makes no difference.
Two years ago I experienced five engine failures in a four month period. Before anyone yaks off about poor maintenance issues, make sure you know what you're talking about and have experience in extreme environments where these things occur, lest you speak far out of turn. I've heard it all before, and usually by those without the experience to talk, or the place to stand in.
One of those failures was a V1 cut. It involved an engine rollback just prior to v1 (which occurs when taking the runway in that operation, because once the power comes up, you're committed). After shutdown, we managed 300' in the pattern for a return and landed. The base rolled crash rescue for us; we were too busy with the airplane to worry about talking to anybody, nor would it have helped. Was that an emergency? It was certainly a handfull, but declaring anything, and talking to anybody was absolutely out of the question at the time.
I recall posting comments about my view on inflight emergencies once some time ago here. I received all kinds of scathing editorials and private messages by those who had experienced the gamut in the simulator, but never in real life. Some time later an individual wrote back and stated that he had learned what it was I was talking about, and I believe him. He has the experience to know, now.
I knew an individual who left a position with an operator to go to work for an airline. He was assigned an experienced captain, for IOE line work. The captain mentioned that he had dealt with an in-flight emergency only a week before. Interested to learn the new business, this individual asked about the emergency. The captain said he had lost his primary inverter.
The individual asked what the emergency had been. That was it. The primary inverter. Ahh. The captain asked the individual what sort of experience he had with emergencies. The individual rattled off a list of things that had occured in the past year, including hydraulic failures, fires, structural cracks and failures, etc. The captain was aghast. The individual quit a few days later; he said he couldn't identify with people who thought something so piddly was an emergency; he went back to the operator to work. In a way, I feel the same.
Then again, I've worked around enough people that feel a spot on their white shirt is an emergency, I have developed a certain level of contempt for them. I've met enough flight instructors who are afraid of the student and the airplane that I'm wary of pilots and instructors until they prove themselves. My present temporary employer hired a pilot last year to fly the airplane I'm flying, doing the job I'm doing. That pilot had his first fire in the airplane, and immediately quit when he landed. During a going fire. He was terrified of the airplane and what he was required to do with it, and the conditions he was required to fly into, and the circumstances under which he had to do it. Quit on the spot after one sortie. To him, I imagine life itself is a big emergency. Better he quit than he kill himself and take a good airplane out of service.
An engine failure is NOT an emergency of itself. Certainly it can be, and I did clearly state before that if emergency authority is necessary, it should be used. However, I have too much experience with these things in actual fact to believe that any one thing is automatically an emergency, bar nothing. It's just not true. I've had fires and fire indications many times, and not yet has one developed into an emergency. I've dealt with them and continued the operation as necessary. This isn't cowboy or macho; it's doing a job professionally and in the manner that the job requires, and getting the job done.
You might think running an airplane down a steep mountain slope in smoke and flame is cowboy, but you'd be wrong. You may think flying an airplane that can't climb but a few hundred feet per minute in rough terrain and high winds is unprofessional, but it would only indicate a lack of experience to say so. You may think that flying under a powerline is foolhardy, but you would have to be very inexperienced in that type of operation to not know it isn't, that it's sometimes necessary in certain kinds of professional aviation.
Don't simply make blanket statements in areas where you have no experience. Certainly don't blast me for stating otherwise, as I do have the experience to make those statements. I was there; the moments didn't constitute an emergency. Perhaps for someone else, or under other circumstances, they might have been emergencies. It is not my place to say.
airnik
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 42
In regards to GA, I've worked both sides of the "declaring an emergency". And in most cases, it's always best to declare an emergency. All in all, it is tax payer's money, but you are getting the benefit of having a skilled crew at your side. I've seen gear-up landings, as well as precautionary landings. If you're in a Bonanza, most likely it won't take more than 20 minutes to remove your aircraft from the active (maybe less from the "other" runway"). With regard to the precautionary landings; sure the fire crews will most likely roll, but all in all it's better to be on the safe side right? With those precautionary landings, the fire crew stay stationed at their "predeterminded areas" and just sit still. And even if it is a "precautionary landing" when the fire crews do roll, all they do is take your personal info (as well as the airport rep) and that is all that it is. Period. Sorry for the long soap box lecture, but in my experience (on both sides) if in doubt, declare an emergency. More often than not (from an a/p mgmt standpoint) if it's nothing major, nothing MAJOR will result from it. But if my flying duties are impared, bottom line, I'll declare an emergency. Most often than not the FAA and the airport admin are most likely willing to work with you.
BOTTOM LINE: If there is a question as to whether or not you should declare an emergency, then by all means DECLARE AN EMERGENCY. It's better to explain on the ground than to have Monday-morning quarterbacks second-guess your logic.
BOTTOM LINE: If there is a question as to whether or not you should declare an emergency, then by all means DECLARE AN EMERGENCY. It's better to explain on the ground than to have Monday-morning quarterbacks second-guess your logic.
Last edited:
airnik
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 42
One other thing. If any of you have had the unfortunate chance of having an aviation accident give the NTSB a call and request the full file, which is called the docket. Anyway, the number for the NTSB to contact is 202-314-6100. Not sure if they charge for this yet, but it will contain pretty much everything the NTSB and FAA has on your case. Very imformative.
Regards,
-Airnik
Regards,
-Airnik
Last edited:
airnik
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 42
One last bit of info: I saw one guy land gear-up three (yes three) times in a retract, at KSUS. Upon the third time, he said (basically) that f*** it, i'm going to helicopters. As far as I know, he's been flying R-44's for the past 5 years. Just goes to show you that if you have enough money,.......
regards,
-airnik
regards,
-airnik
Typhoon1244
Member in Good Standing
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2002
- Posts
- 3,078
Wow.
Avbug, in the V1 cut you described...let me make sure I understand. You took (I'm guessing, based on your 300' altitude) a 50% power loss, came back around in the pattern, and landed without saying a word on the radio? I'm not so sure that keeping the guys on the ground completely in the dark is a good idea, no matter how busy you are. (Were you the only guy in the airplane?)
You said over and over that in the situations you've been in, declaring would not have affected the outcome. Then why not do it? It costs you nothing...and could gain you everything. If it's not a question of macho, then what's the problem?
Yeah, I have less than 5,000 hours and haven't had a triple engine failure every month for the last five years. I've never declared an emergency for "a spot on [my] white shirt," either. I did declare for (1) a 100% power loss, (2) a left main that wouldn't extend, (2) a total hydraulic system failure, (4) two flaps-up landings, and (5) a severe turbulence encounter at 500' on base. I hate tooting my own horn, but I believe I handled each of these situations fairly well.
Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.
Avbug, in the V1 cut you described...let me make sure I understand. You took (I'm guessing, based on your 300' altitude) a 50% power loss, came back around in the pattern, and landed without saying a word on the radio? I'm not so sure that keeping the guys on the ground completely in the dark is a good idea, no matter how busy you are. (Were you the only guy in the airplane?)
You said over and over that in the situations you've been in, declaring would not have affected the outcome. Then why not do it? It costs you nothing...and could gain you everything. If it's not a question of macho, then what's the problem?
Yeah, I have less than 5,000 hours and haven't had a triple engine failure every month for the last five years. I've never declared an emergency for "a spot on [my] white shirt," either. I did declare for (1) a 100% power loss, (2) a left main that wouldn't extend, (2) a total hydraulic system failure, (4) two flaps-up landings, and (5) a severe turbulence encounter at 500' on base. I hate tooting my own horn, but I believe I handled each of these situations fairly well.
Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.
Last edited:
airnik
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 42
Typhoon1244
<Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.>
If you keep your mouth shut, the FAA will surely have you by the b@lls.
I stilll adamantly believe that it is not only neccessary but prudent to declare an emergency, especially if your "FLYING ABILITY" is impaired. PERIOD.
-Airnik
<Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.>
If you keep your mouth shut, the FAA will surely have you by the b@lls.
I stilll adamantly believe that it is not only neccessary but prudent to declare an emergency, especially if your "FLYING ABILITY" is impaired. PERIOD.
-Airnik
Last edited:
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
