Decade long rumor of SWA buying Q400's back

[Kermit_D_Frog]

If SWA gets a smaller airplane and pays less for captain than it does for 737 FO, we might as well outsource the flying to a code share partner and allow for it in our contract. The results would be the same. "SWAPA, you better agree to this (or that, or the other thing) or we'll just trade 200 737s for 200 cute little turboprops." We would be bent by all that leverage in a heartbeat. Then after we signed off on whatever they were asking for, the trade would go down anyway.
We can't allow any smaller airplane to be operated here in which it's captain pay rate is less than 737 FO. PERIOD.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Thats what all the majors said in the 90's. We don't want to fly those small airplanes. Worked out great for them. Negotiate for smaller plane rates but demand a percentage cap based on "mainline" airframes. Keep them on property. No going back once you outsource. Kermit is right about one thing. One way or the other if SWA wants smaller airplanes on property they will get them. Either through negotiations or through the courts. At least with negotiations we can try to make sure they are not replacement aircraft but growth.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Agree with secret squirrel. Fly whatever airplane management wants to fly, but it has to be flown by Southwest pilots on the Southwest seniority list. I don't care if it's a Piper Navajo. Don't sell scope. At the end of the day, it's all you have.

 

[fr8doggie]

Agree with secret squirrel. Fly whatever airplane management wants to fly, but it has to be flown by Southwest pilots on the Southwest seniority list. I don't care if it's a Piper Navajo. Don't sell scope. At the end of the day, it's all you have.

Should a PA31 Capt. make more than a 12yr 737 F/O?

FDX had C402s flown by FDX pilots in the early 80's. Not sure what the pay scale was.
This was at the same time we had DC-10s.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

 

[FurloughedAgain]

No need to make it over complicated. Just duplicate the pay scales from the highest paid regional flying that equipment. Work rules identical to the rest of the airline. If that means that a 737 FO makes more than a PA31 captain then so be it. Capture the flying, then don't let it go. The minute you give away scope, it's gone forever. Ask the 1500 USAirways FOs who were furloughed at the same time that an armada of USAir Express RJs darkened the skies.

 

[tankerhead]

What if G-daddy says he wants to buy fifty Q's and fifty Dreamliners? All at once.

 

[redflyer65]

I'd say 'let's talk'.

 

[waveflyer]

After this whole AAI deal and all the talk focused on nothing more than $$$$$$$. I would be willing to bet that there is a snow ball's chance in hell of SWAPA guys voting yes on a pay cut. It simply won't happen. I agree blended rates are the way to go but it's too late for that. You are asking 8000 pilots to agree to a pay cut so a handful can have a better rate. RIIIIIIIIGHT! It more than likely will be filled by new hires and a handful of FO's with no upgrade in the next decade. There are not very many pilots in the history of aviation that voted yes on a pay cut.

Greedy and dumb

 

[waveflyer]

Agreed, a blended rate only works in my opinion, if you have similar fleet sizes. I don't want to have a blended rate for say, 50 Q's on property (never gonna happen in my opinion) when that will bring down the rates for the 600 Boeings we have.

Just as dumb

You TWO guys do not seem to get what a blended rate does for unity

And terming it a paycut is ridiculous

Why don't you guys just spin it for mgmt while you're at it

 

[waveflyer]

Agree with secret squirrel. Fly whatever airplane management wants to fly, but it has to be flown by Southwest pilots on the Southwest seniority list. I don't care if it's a Piper Navajo. Don't sell scope. At the end of the day, it's all you have.

Gets it^^^^

Blended or not

We fly it

I agree with blended

 

[waveflyer]

If SWA gets a smaller airplane and pays less for captain than it does for 737 FO, we might as well outsource the flying to a code share partner and allow for it in our contract. The results would be the same. "SWAPA, you better agree to this (or that, or the other thing) or we'll just trade 200 737s for 200 cute little turboprops." We would be bent by all that leverage in a heartbeat. Then after we signed off on whatever they were asking for, the trade would go down anyway.
We can't allow any smaller airplane to be operated here in which it's captain pay rate is less than 737 FO. PERIOD.

I hope you don't actually believe that we may as well outsource it...????

Seriously?

 

[PCL_128]

wave, you're living in a dream world. No one is going to vote for their own pay cut to give you the blended rate you want. And I tell you this as someone who actually agrees with you that blended is better. It just ain't gonna happen. Pilots are selfish pricks.

 

[waveflyer]

I don't think it is here actually

I think the toughest group to convince is the internet crowd

The argument is this-
If we get widebodies someday, do you want to be forced to fly it financially and create that lame expensive training pipeline- or do you want to fly what you want

Remember, pilots will hop airplane to airplane and wrap a lot of company funds in training if we play the stepping stone game- so company has some inherent value wrapped up in a blended rate too- which is leverage to minimize any perceived cuts from a blended rate

 

[PCL_128]

You're a dreamer, wave. I wish you were right. But I'm too much of a realist.

 

[waveflyer]

That's weird PCL

I was fully expecting a "you know, I hadn't thought about it that way- you're right"

Haha

Enjoy your Saturday my man

 

[27 driver]

Greedy and dumb

First of all Wave....it's not greedy and dumb. It's reality. Maybe in your little bubble guys would vote for a pay cut but in the real world it won't happen. You can spin a blended rate all you want but it's a pay cut for all. For the last 4 years all we have heard from RSW guys is W 2 this pay rates that. Do you really believe that you can sell a senior captain on a pay cut. Even if it was only $10 an hr it could be $1500 or more a month. It's your dream but it won't happen.

 

[27 driver]

Gets it^^^^

Blended or not

We fly it

I agree with blended

He said nothing about blended rates. Just SWA pilots flying SWA routes. I agree that there should be no out sourcing. But you will never get half of the pilot group to vote yes on less hourly pay. Especially the half that wouldn't be affected by the smaller planes. Keep dreaming though.

 

[waveflyer]

Reading not your strong suit?^^^

I agree with blended- BUT in any case we fly it.

 

[fr8doggie]

Wave probably thinks he would be a Capt. on the Q400 so HE would get a pay raise from his current F/O pay.

 

[waveflyer]

First of all Wave....it's not greedy and dumb. It's reality. Maybe in your little bubble guys would vote for a pay cut but in the real world it won't happen. You can spin a blended rate all you want but it's a pay cut for all. For the last 4 years all we have heard from RSW guys is W 2 this pay rates that. Do you really believe that you can sell a senior captain on a pay cut. Even if it was only $10 an hr it could be $1500 or more a month. It's your dream but it won't happen.

So if we get a smaller and a larger type - you want to set up the same old failed legacy system that doesn't really work for any party involved?

What part are you arguing for?
$10-
Chasing carrots as mgmt plays that divide and conquer game
Significantly more pilots in the training pipeline unproductive jobs program??- has anyone ever loved going to school every few years??)
Pilot dynamic where pilots have to fly the bigger plane to make money even if they don't want to and it's hard on the body-

It's not like this is unprecedented- UPS

And believe me, if REALITY were set in stone I'd have never accomplished anything

 

[waveflyer]

Wave probably thinks he would be a Capt. on the Q400 so HE would get a pay raise from his current F/O pay.

I'm pretty sure I'm not governed by the scraps airlines throw at different type airplanes

If I wanted to make more money, I'd bid the plane and schedule that let me give away my line and stay as far from an airplane as possible

 

[fr8doggie]

UPS had this from the beginning. So do you guys.

You are asking current pilots to take a paycut to blend the rates.

How many senior pilots would really vote for that?

 

[waveflyer]

UPS had this from the beginning. So do you guys.

You are asking current pilots to take a paycut to blend the rates.

Unless we buy a heavy jet next?

Then I'd be asking all pilots to accept a nominal raise

(Btw- Do you understand how long it would take before it equated to anything any pilot would notice one way or the other (heavy or smaller)?

We have 600 737's

I know basic math isn't a pilot strong suit when it comes to money or seniority but.....it would have to be one hell of an order out of balance with it's opposite to have an effect)

You sound defensive fr8
Why?

Maybe bc it's the one thing on the pilot side of the business that UPS does right?

Haven't you met the haggard 60 year old airline pilot commuting cross country to start round the world trips that someone that age would rather not, just to bolster their retirement?
And then you look at the numbers, and it's a good idea money wise that they do- but wow it sucks for them at that point- can't spend money from the grave-
What about when that life isn't healthy?

I'd rather be same time zone-

Some like widebody intl

I'd rather have pilots flying the type of plane and routes they WANT to be flying instead of our own contract, THAT WE CONTROL, placing significant financial pressure on us to always keep marching towards the next highest paying bird

 

[fr8doggie]

I thought you were talking about Q400s. Silly me.

 

[waveflyer]

I thought you were talking about Q400s. Silly me.

Yeah, well reality is the airline has been a lot more vocal about spreading out internationally than growing with smaller planes- so the argument has to fit both directions

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

With all the health hazards that come along with bigger airplanes that you claim, why shouldn't you get paid more to fly it? If there are no incentives, younger junior pilots would be forced to fly them and would end up getting older and unhealthier faster.

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" Karl Marx

That's what your blended rate sounds like and it's no wonder PCL agrees with you .

 

[scoreboardII]

Napkin talk:

600 737's of which 100 are 800's.

3/7= 143 seats
800=175 seats

We fly the 800 which carries 22% more passengers for the same rate.

The Q400 carries 90.


The Q carries 38% less than our base jet, but only 16% less to the low side compared to what we fly the 22% larger jet, for same rate.

That's not all of the story, lets look at routes and what they make or charge from Kayak:

PHX-Flagstaff= $350 Usair

LAX-Fresno= $450 AK

SEA-GEG=$286 AK


The shorter routes are charging hefty fee's for the luxury of air travel.

You can book a PHX-LA flight for $60, yet to go PHX-FLG its going to cost you $350 to go 1/4th the distance? I know, it's the cost of doing business, and that's why the hype that the shorter routes don't make money is just that, hype management wants you to hear.

That 90 seat jet may carry 16% fewer passengers than the larger jet flies off the base number, but it also charges 4 times as much per ASM. Heck, one full fare passenger on that FLG=PHX leg would pay the flight crews wages.

So, a blended rate, would not be very far from our current wage rate, and if we did due diligence, we could easily show it would make money at current book rate..

 

[waveflyer]

With all the health hazards that come along with bigger airplanes that you claim, why shouldn't you get paid more to fly it? If there are no incentives, younger junior pilots would be forced to fly them and would end up getting older and unhealthier faster.

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their need" Karl Marx

That's what your blended rate sounds like and it's no wonder PCL agrees with you .

Oh good lord^
Save the hyperbole man-
Our whole seniority system is the most socialist thing in capitalism...
I'm willing to compete for our spots, are you?

 

[waveflyer]

Thank you scoreboard
Great post

Outsourcing is about what thing- union busting

They do it bc we've allowed it

 

[PropPiedmont]

Napkin talk:

600 737's of which 100 are 800's.

3/7= 143 seats
800=175 seats

We fly the 800 which carries 22% more passengers for the same rate.

The Q400 carries 90.


The Q carries 38% less than our base jet, but only 16% less to the low side compared to what we fly the 22% larger jet, for same rate.

That's not all of the story, lets look at routes and what they make or charge from Kayak:

PHX-Flagstaff= $350 Usair

LAX-Fresno= $450 AK

SEA-GEG=$286 AK


The shorter routes are charging hefty fee's for the luxury of air travel.

You can book a PHX-LA flight for $60, yet to go PHX-FLG its going to cost you $350 to go 1/4th the distance? I know, it's the cost of doing business, and that's why the hype that the shorter routes don't make money is just that, hype management wants you to hear.

That 90 seat jet may carry 16% fewer passengers than the larger jet flies off the base number, but it also charges 4 times as much per ASM. Heck, one full fare passenger on that FLG=PHX leg would pay the flight crews wages.

So, a blended rate, would not be very far from our current wage rate, and if we did due diligence, we could easily show it would make money at current book rate..

Now do the real math. Phx-Flg isn't the ticket people are buying. They're buying XXX-FLG.