Decade long rumor of SWA buying Q400's back

[redflyer65]

I don't think that WN is going to purchase new Q400s from Bombardier. I think they could purchase the Q400 by way of Merger or Acquisition of Alaska Air Group. I would be willing to bet that's what the company is actually looking at. In that scenario the Q400s would continue to be Operated by Horizon Pilots and wholly owned by Southwest Airlines. They don't even have to change the name. Instead of Alaska Horizon it will become Southwest Horizon.

And in that scenario, they would be against our Section 1 immediately.

Much like the SkyWest flying that was done for AirTran. How long did it take to stop that?

 

[fr8doggie]

You think the contract improvements happened in a vacuum?

We've tightened scope and codeshare the last two contracts. We allowed for near international codeshare, then the second bite at the apple we specified only ONE carrier...Volaris.

You guys look at our contract and think we did nothing to get there, but then argue that our management is disingenuous but also just hands us things for free. Which is it?

I guess Fred Smith just hands things out as well. You seriously think that?

What I'm saying is that you guys have never achieved anything that SWA management wasn't already prepared to give. Goes the same for us. Management always has the upper hand.

I never said your management was disingenuous.

As always you guys never answer the question: How did you strong arm your management into agreeing to your current scope language? You imply that they really want code share and RJs but you guys stopped them cold. So what did you do to convince SWA that the dearly wanted code share was a no go?

We got our last contract (2006) when our MEM based MD-11 F/Os got fed up and stopped flying extra. Became economically painful for the company and they got serious about delivering a decent contract. We won't get a new one until FDX figures it's more expensive to continue to "negotiate".

You won't be flying Q400s for current SWA book rates.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

 

[freightdogfred]

I guess Fred Smith just hands things out as well. You seriously think that?

Pretty much. You should at least do a little research before you start talking out of your pie-hole. I'm quite certain Fr8doggie knows a little more about his company than you do which is quite evident by his postings. His group is far more cohesive than SWAPA is (especially as of the last merger). It's just the way it is. Are you familiar with Fred Smith's infamous "Red letter"? Or the "Parking lot deal" where the agreement was signed in the parking lot on the back of the pilot rep bending over? What do think your SWAPA leaders would do if GK sent out a "Red letter"? Your contract is strictly due to the largesse of management plain an simple. Fr8doggie is correct. Here's a link for you to do a little research.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/fdx/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=19085

 

[redflyer65]

What I'm saying is that you guys have never achieved anything that SWA management wasn't already prepared to give. Goes the same for us. Management always has the upper hand.

I never said your management was disingenuous.

As always you guys never answer the question: How did you strong arm your management into agreeing to your current scope language? You imply that they really want code share and RJs but you guys stopped them cold. So what did you do to convince SWA that the dearly wanted code share was a no go?

We got our last contract (2006) when our MEM based MD-11 F/Os got fed up and stopped flying extra. Became economically painful for the company and they got serious about delivering a decent contract. We won't get a new one until FDX figures it's more expensive to continue to "negotiate".

You won't be flying Q400s for current SWA book rates.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

I see what you're saying freight. We (SWAPA) saw an opportunity to lock the company into limited codeshare. The company didn't care because they were focused on Volaris and WestJet. The agreement with WestJet fell apart and we went to the next level...naming just Volaris and NO other carriers.

I think going forward, Gary would like some of that back. Timing is everything and you're right...we didn't strong arm, but we saw the opportunity in front of us and locked it down. I'm glad we did.

Wave was the one saying we'd fly them at a blended rate. I don't see them showing up anyway.

 

[redflyer65]

Pretty much. You should at least do a little research before you start talking out of your pie-hole. I'm quite certain Fr8doggie knows a little more about his company than you do which is quite evident by his postings. His group is far more cohesive than SWAPA is (especially as of the last merger). It's just the way it is. Are you familiar with Fred Smith's infamous "Red letter"? Or the "Parking lot deal" where the agreement was signed in the parking lot on the back of the pilot rep bending over? What do think your SWAPA leaders would do if GK sent out a "Red letter"? Your contract is strictly due to the largesse of management plain an simple. Fr8doggie is correct. Here's a link for you to do a little research.

https://crewroom.alpa.org/fdx/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=19085

It's easier to just read the post above where Freight lays it out.

What does it say? The FedEx pilots made a decision to quit picking up open time..

So Fred Smith didn't just 'hand them' anything. You get that right?

 

[waveflyer]

How exactly did it happen? You 'fought' for it? Your management really isn't that interested in code share or you'd have it.

I don't think you would rollover on Q400 pay but $200+/hr? I don't think so...

Do you understand the concept of a blended rate?

How on earth did ups pilots pay so much for a 727 hour? Isn't it so unfair for 747 pilots to get paid less so that 757 pilots get paid more??
(Actually by your logic, how have we held onto our 737 rates? Maybe bc we feel it is our business/network/ and pilots ability-safety record that gives us our value not just size-)

Or can you view it as a QOL enhancement that provides pilots choice

Given your numbers though, here's how it would work:
We have 600 737's- let's say we go absolutely nuts and buy 100 Q's at your $114/hour-

That's 600x$200/hour + 100x$114/hour= $187/hour

A good thing?

Eh...

Most would not look forward to a $13 paycut-

But worth it to keep unity and QOL?
Yes

Absolutely yes and that's what I hear from our pilots-
Plus this is the group that has agreed to fly -800's for the same money
We would probably fly -900's for the same money too
And already fly -500's-
So that's not that big a seat difference between 86 seat Q and our -500's

So it's really not a stretch


I'm always intrigued by the idea-
I don't know if passengers would love it-
It is an OLD OLD rumor that makes it's rounds, so there's that

Here's what I also know- we do not serve a whole lot of markets here in the US bc we don't have a plane for that job

I don't think that pilot concerns will be a stopping point or be a deciding factor

What I do think will be a major fork in the road for us is when we get a marketable different size aircraft- whether bigger or smaller

Do we go the tired way of other legacies or go the more flexible, better IMO. Blended one rate?

 

[scoreboardII]

What I'm saying is that you guys have never achieved anything that SWA management wasn't already prepared to give. Goes the same for us. Management always has the upper hand.

I never said your management was disingenuous.

As always you guys never answer the question: How did you strong arm your management into agreeing to your current scope language? You imply that they really want code share and RJs but you guys stopped them cold. So what did you do to convince SWA that the dearly wanted code share was a no go?

We got our last contract (2006) when our MEM based MD-11 F/Os got fed up and stopped flying extra. Became economically painful for the company and they got serious about delivering a decent contract. We won't get a new one until FDX figures it's more expensive to continue to "negotiate".

You won't be flying Q400s for current SWA book rates.

Regards,
Fr8doggie

Well then they won't be flying Q400's.

Book rate, is in the eye of the beholder. if the Q was offered at 90% of a 737, I bet we would agree, however, we would demand protections on current and future growth.

Our codeshare was won at the table, by trading other items of value. It may prove to be a mistake on managements part to let us have it even though by last count it cost the pilots over $50 million to get those protections. It is going to cost much more for the company to buy them back. However, it may prove folly on the pilots part in that the company may never want codeshare, and might want to keep it all in house. Although they seem more than willing to outsource every other part of the operation.

 

[waveflyer]

I don't think that WN is going to purchase new Q400s from Bombardier. I think they could purchase the Q400 by way of Merger or Acquisition of Alaska Air Group. I would be willing to bet that's what the company is actually looking at. In that scenario the Q400s would continue to be Operated by Horizon Pilots and wholly owned by Southwest Airlines. They don't even have to change the name. Instead of Alaska Horizon it will become Southwest Horizon.

Right now that's not permitted by our Swapa contract-

What would you recommend doing with horizon if that went down?

 

[freightdogfred]

What does it say? The FedEx pilots made a decision to quit picking up open time..

Yea. Get back to me when the SWAPA group stops picking up open time.

 

[Flyby1206]

Right now that's not permitted by our Swapa contract-

What would you recommend doing with horizon if that went down?

Would it be allowed if the pilots were on the SWAPA seniority list and operated under a separate section of the SWAPA contract?

Kind of like when NWA set up Compass.

 

[scoreboardII]

Anything is possible, but right now, no. At least we would not vote for it given current management distrust.

 

[waveflyer]

Definite no for me and everyone I've talked to

If it has the SWA logo, we fly it and deal with the issues ourselves

 

[redflyer65]

Yea. Get back to me when the SWAPA group stops picking up open time.

Maybe you need to back off the caffeine a little Freight. I never said the SW pilots were there. Could we be pushed there? Maybe.

See what Score wrote above. I agree 100%.

 

[waveflyer]

Would it be allowed if the pilots were on the SWAPA seniority list and operated under a separate section of the SWAPA contract?

Kind of like when NWA set up Compass.

Why on earth would we even contemplate another group doing the flying instead of us?

 

[redflyer65]

Would it be allowed if the pilots were on the SWAPA seniority list and operated under a separate section of the SWAPA contract?

Kind of like when NWA set up Compass.

No. I think there would be plenty of unity on that question.

 

[Saluki Dawg]

Would it be allowed if the pilots were on the SWAPA seniority list and operated under a separate section of the SWAPA contract?

Kind of like when NWA set up Compass.

Yes it would, and that's most likely what would happen in the event of a transaction.

 

[Flyby1206]

Why on earth would we even contemplate another group doing the flying instead of us?

It would be your group. You, waveflyer, could bid to fly the Q400 and transfer to the Horizon certificate. You would have to go through a new indoc course in addition to systems training. You could then bid to transfer back to the SWA certificate and fly the 737. All Horizon and SWA pilots would be on the same seniority list, and could bid to transfer between airframes, but there would be a different Flight Operations Manual for the two.

A 737 and a Q400 would have different operational requirements, such as departing VFR and picking up a clearance enroute (I doubt they allow the 737 to do that, right?), or maybe allow pax deplaning/enplaning with 1 engine running. Point being, if you want SWA pilots to fly the plane then you have to find a way to allow mgmt to operate the T-prop differently that the 737.

 

[Tarheelherk]

I think this is more about the pilot development pipeline for the future. How is SWA going to fill future seats? Most other majors are positioned for pilot development through their own company structure. Why can't we control our own pilot development? Having two pilot groups on the same property causes so much angst and distrust. I'm still shocked and disappointed in my future group in not immediately moving to represent all SWA pilots, wholly owned or main line. I hope we aren't that short sighted again.

 

[Dan Roman]

Why on earth would we even contemplate another group doing the flying instead of us?

Somewhat similar to our discussion about HA's turboprops.
No easy answers but I think it's safe to say that....

1) SWA cannot operate those A/C and pay your 737 wages.

2) If you operate them with pilots on your seniority list you effectively create a B scale group of pilots doing some of your flying for less than what others on the property are getting paid.

3) you create a vehicle for SWA to replace some 737 flying with cheaper turboprop flights.

4) You will open up a Pandoras box that will eventually morph into something you didn't expect.

5) If you don't get turboprops you will continue to lose market share domestically that is being done by other turboprop operators.

In other words, the cat's out of the bag on turboprop/RJ flying industry wide and there is no easy fix. The best hope is going to be supply and demand driving up wages for those pilots.

 

[Dan Roman]

And don't forget SWA was the airline that was going to do all their International expansion with Volaris and West Jet 737 pilots at one point. We all live in glass houses.