DAL Wants...

[jehtplane]

If you actually believe that Comiar's previous concessions were "for growth" then it is true, as you said, that you're not familiar with how this works. Those concessions were and effort to "hold on" and survive, not for growth.

The DL pilots will have to do whatever they need to do in the effort to survive. If you really thingk CMR pilots took "concessions" last time around, you're about to get a very rude awakening to what "concession" really means when you see what we have to do next.

Better get ready to grin and bear it for there is no way that CMR can avoid the effects of Delta's failure to properly manage their airline.

Keep in mind that our position at CMR is like just like being a passenger in "steerage" on the Titanic. The first class passengers on the DL list will get the lifeboats. We'll be lucky if we get a left-over life jacket. Plan on doing a lot of "swimming" in the cesspool before you get rescued, IF that ever happens.

Being the subsidiary of a bankrupt company isn't as good as a pair of 2's in a high stakes poker game. Reality sucks, but it is still reality.

Plan on a 20% pay cut, the loss of 50 airplanes and the gutting of the rest of the CBA. If what's left survives, figure you lucked out.

The company we work for has been destroyed by the company that "owns" us, and we are expected to be thankful and smile. There is nothing we can do to change it.

Sorry to forecast bad news, but the truth is this is going to get far worse before it gets any better.

Dude come on man, those concessions were for growth, management showed you the E-170 and you bought off on it. They had done the same thing to both of us just a year earlier. I really do wish you guys the best and I am sorry for you and yours. Hopefully things will not be as bad as everyone is suggesting. It sure is amazing how things have turned, how everyone is trying to undercut the other guy, and now the majors are being forced to knock their payscales right down to that of a regional, and I hate to say it but do not be surprised if management comes to the DCI carriers for another RFP for those same airplanes, how sad this whole thing has become , I truly wish everyone the best!

 

[General Lee]

Well said. It's amazing that the regional pilots were always "lowering the bar" or guilty of "SJS." These proposed 100 seat pay rates at the majors prove this is no longer the case. Those rates sure make the 190 rates at Republic look pretty dang good now don't they? Sure the aircraft do belong at mainline but let's fly them for mainline pay rates not rates that are lower than regional rates. It's amazing how people will sell themselves out to save their jobs with the attitude that "hey it's not a big deal, we can work on raising those pay rates later." I've got news for you, those will be industry standard rates for a long time to come if pay rates like that are approved. That's why the industry has already reached the levels it has. Management has got you by the nads on this one. The race to the bottom will now reach unpresidented levels: the bottom. Absolutely amazing. Just when you thought you've seen it all and it can't get any worse.

It's different when a juges makes you do it. You guys bought off on it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RP170]

It's different when a juges makes you do it. You guys bought off on it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The judge will make you fly new 100 seaters? Don't you have to vote on the newly proposed pay rates for those aircraft before a judge can force you to fly them for those rates? Maybe I'm wrong but I thought that was how it worked? Looks like we bought off on it at some pretty good rates now huh? Do those mainline 100 seat rates sound good to you General? Why don't you share your view on what you think about it.

 

[FDJ2]

The judge will make you fly new 100 seaters? Don't you have to vote on the newly proposed pay rates for those aircraft before a judge can force you to fly them for those rates?

I'm not sure what your point is, but the judge imposes a contract when one is not ratified by the union. Those rates and that PWA is DAL's opener/wish list, they have not been approved by the DAL MEC or pilots.

Were your rates imposed on you by a judge, were they negotiated in bankruptcy or through the Railway Labor Act? There's a big difference, you can grasp that, can't you?

 

[RP170]

I'm not sure what your point is, but the judge imposes a contract when one is not ratified by the union. Those rates and that PWA is DAL's opener/wish list, they have not been approved by the DAL MEC or pilots.

Were your rates imposed on you by a judge, were they negotiated in bankruptcy or through the Railway Labor Act? There's a big difference, you can grasp that, can't you?

I understand that but no rates have been imposed by anyone yet. It just seems everyone is happy with those proposed rates and is just going to roll with it. Can't the union bargain whatsoever and propose something higher? I guess seeing those pay rates just bothers me more than it bothers your own pilots considering there are proposed 190 regional rates that are higher than those. Everyone has been preaching how the 190's should be flown at mainline for mainline wages and attacked regionals that have proposed or suggested flying these aircraft. Maybe I'm confused here but that's how I view it.

 

[V1andgo]

How about, we agree on pay rates for position rather than equipment size? Just like UPS. All Cap.s and FOs make the same regardless of aircraft size, only longevity yield's pay increases.
Just for fun let us say, Captains should make $100,000 to $150,000 and FOs $70,000 to $100,000. The company is free to buy whatever size airplane they feel make the most money without time consuming pay rate negotiations. Also, overall training costs would decrease. For Pilots this could mean less training time away from families, maybe ever less commuting time just to maintain our standard of living after displacements and furloughs, and, most of all, job security.
Just an idea! What do you think?

 

[CheapFlyer]

Well said. It's amazing that the regional pilots were always "lowering the bar" or guilty of "SJS." These proposed 100 seat pay rates at the majors prove this is no longer the case. Those rates sure make the 190 rates at Republic look pretty dang good now don't they? Sure the aircraft do belong at mainline but let's fly them for mainline pay rates not rates that are lower than regional rates. It's amazing how people will sell themselves out to save their jobs with the attitude that "hey it's not a big deal, we can work on raising those pay rates later." I've got news for you, those will be industry standard rates for a long time to come if pay rates like that are approved. That's why the industry has already reached the levels it has. Management has got you by the nads on this one. The race to the bottom will now reach unpresidented levels: the bottom. Absolutely amazing. Just when you thought you've seen it all and it can't get any worse.

I think you need to relax a bit! The title of this thread is called "DAL wants...". This is not exactly what the Delta pilots want, but much of it will be forced upon them. Hopefully they will be able to bargain and keep the pain to a minimum.


-CF

 

[~~~^~~~]

Hey Delta boys, you starting to figure out what alter ego whipsaw is? You ready to admit your scope policy is a miserable failure and the ASA and Comair pilots were right at the 2000 BOD meeting? You ready to admit the RJDC are the only true believers in ALPA's original mission?

Now the difference between you and the Jet Blue pilots (that you snidely looked down your noses at) is that they have better pay rates and they perform all of their Company's flying. No Judge has forced anything on you yet. Don't blame the Court. Put the blame where it belongs, ALPA's failed scope policy and your own greed during contract 2000 negotiations.

Once you understand the source of your problem you can begin fixing it. As long as you continue to blame the innocent for your problems, your problems will only get worse.

Delta has a good network system and when you guys sign off on flying the airplanes for almost nothing I am sure Delta will return to the market as a very competitive player. In fact I dumped my AAI stock because I believe Delta will pull through this. But, in the process you guys continue to gut the profession (by encouraging alter ego airlines) and the lowering tide is now starting to sink your own pay and working conditions. It is amazing that you lost the scope war, with self inflicted gunshot wounds. The regional pilots were locked out of the fight.

~~~^~~~

 

[Green]

v1andgo,


Don't you think those flatrates you just proposed are a little low???? Captains between 100k and 150k? That's anywhere from 50-100k less than captians make at SWA not to even mention cargo rates. 100k-150k sounds like fo wages.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you actually believe that Comiar's previous concessions were "for growth" then it is true, as you said, that you're not familiar with how this works. Those concessions were and effort to "hold on" and survive, not for growth.

The DL pilots will have to do whatever they need to do in the effort to survive.

Plan on a 20% pay cut, the loss of 50 airplanes and the gutting of the rest of the CBA. If what's left survives, figure you lucked out.

Sorry to forecast bad news, but the truth is this is going to get far worse before it gets any better.

Surplus:

The Comair pilots' concessions for growth was a cheap shot against the ASA pilots who stood beside you and funded your causes for our mutual benefit. The fact your MEC mailed support stickers to the ASA pilots while negotiating a secret side deal for Connection flying will be remembered.

Predatory barganing is rarely rewarded and if rewarded, never lasts since once you have dropped the ethical standard, other pilots have no reluctance to undercut your predatory deal. There is no honor amongst theives.

You continue to preach "what ever it takes" and you will continue to live with the result. I liked it better when you held the moral high ground.

Like most market swings, both the high and the low sides are over estimated by those who observe the trends. But trend watchers are always looking backward at what has happened, not forward.

Delta has a great network. If they get religion regarding the spending over at Virginia Avenue they can put the airline back on track. It might mean that funding for book tours of Gay Marine Porn Stars have to be cancelled, but that would be a good thing also.

Hope you find your way back....

~~~^~~~

 

[wms]

Wow...

CHQ this, and CHQ that

DAL 12 year $88.93
CHQ 12 year $96.27

"Let's keep the 190's at mainline so we can preserve the mainline jobs, and the great payscales" Blah, blah...

And what aircraft do you move to at CHQ?

 

[RP170]

And what aircraft do you move to at CHQ?

You won't be moving anyplace at Delta except backwards for a long long time. Good luck guys.

 

[wms]

The DAL pilots are already flying 100 seat 732s for good money. The replacement is the E190, and to keep from getting low-balled, they have to low-ball. They were forced into a race to the bottom started by the regional pilots, of which I am one. But they're not doing it for SGS, they're doing to keep the jobs they've been losing to us. Meanwhile we've been foolishly securing a job at the regionals by keeping growth here rather than the majors. I hope they go even further and low-ball the E170, too. Keep in mind also that without DAL there is no DCI. We need their success for our own existence. RJs can't feed RJs.

 

[jehtplane]

The DAL pilots are already flying 100 seat 732s for good money. The replacement is the E190, and to keep from getting low-balled, they have to low-ball. They were forced into a race to the bottom started by the regional pilots, of which I am one. But they're not doing it for SGS, they're doing to keep the jobs they've been losing to us. Meanwhile we've been foolishly securing a job at the regionals by keeping growth here rather than the majors. I hope they go even further and low-ball the E170, too. Keep in mind also that without DAL there is no DCI. We need their success for our own existence. RJs can't feed RJs.

How do you figure it is our fault?

 

[banger]

IAHERJ,


Remember, we aren't allowing it, the judge is. We brought the bar up to the highest it has ever been, and we should ALL strive to be paid well---very well. His comments might have been mean, but we all should know the difference between allowing the rates to happen, versus them being put on top of you. There really isn't much we can do about it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey General, I don't like what the company is doing to you either. I think you and the rest of the pilot industry deserve more. But you have no control of it. Not unlike we at jetBlue have. You bemoaned us for letting it happen, not fighting back. You have a union! Lets see you fight back. I don't think you will. I don't think you can.
Yea, I know.. its different... We make money, we are in a position to offer a raise. Well looks like this quarter we might not make money. I honesty don't think our company can afford a raise right now. I'm not slammin you. I just think now your seeing from the other side.
If you guys just hold the line...we can tell our management we ought to be paid..... blah blah blah...........

Hope you guys negotiate well