DAL Wants...

[FlyBoeingJets]

Wow. This proposal by Delta management has a lot of ramifications. I thought management, and labor, were short sighted waiting this long for going BK and working on rates. But by waiting they get bigger cuts. I am not happy or enthusiastic about the new rates, but it might be what saves Delta for the next 5 years. Like the K-car for Chrysler. But it looks like UAL -1 or -10. A HUGE change in roles.

But, Mainline gets the "order" for 100 seaters. It may not be a win for labor with the rates sucking, but the alternative was for them to go to regionals like Mesa. When UAL and DAL fly A-320 and E-190 sized airplanes at JetBlue, or lower, costs Neeleman and company will face a real threat. Not like Song. The market sees this as they downgrade JetBlue debt. I never understood the theory of keeping costs at Delta significantly higher than Airtran and Jetblue and hope everything turns out o.k. But it did work for a time. That time is now gone. I used to think things move quickly in this industry but they actually move slowly. But move they do. Just think, if Delta had done half of this cut years ago Airtran and Jetblue would be but a memory. But that was an impossibility. Too many people near enough to retirement with too much to lose.

The chest beating about bringing down the profession is not going to fly the next couple of years. The guys looking out for their jobs will likely tell them to shut up and color. The situation is too dire. There is no more financial room left for it.

Now that management has labor against the wall, they are asking for what they really want. They will ensure labor costs are low enough to make a profit with high oil and will be laughing all the way to the bank when oil falls or tickets go up. They will be saying a deal is a deal and stall on any pay raises. Airline negotiating and contracts haven't changed that much. Management is setting up to follow the years of big losses with years of big profit.

I thought we might be entering a new era a couple of years ago. I would have liked to see pay cuts until profitability but with a kicker. If the jet fuel bill falls, pay rises a percentage. Instead we see just another big cut with some profit sharing.


Has anyone noticed after NWA and DAL it will be SWA's turn to offer pay cuts? There are those at SWA that say this is ridiculous, but it is coming.

And the regionals. Boy I feel for you folks. There is a world of pain in store for you when the 100 seaters get going. Maybe for SWA too, but even more for the average regional.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I can't believe that every post here is accepting this company proposal as a done deal. I, for one , am ready to do anything to stop the rape of what is left of our contract. I am looking foreward to the fight. Michael707 and General Lee sound like they are ready to cave in. Remember, GE and AMX are putting up 2B to finance this BK. I would rather strike or find some other way to burn through that 2B than accept any part of that crappy company proposal. You guys sound like you haven't read the entire document. If you have, go back and read it again. If even half of the proposal is forced on us, Delta will be the worst airline in the ccountry to work for. I say Fight to the end. Frick GG

Ignore my profile...Iam an active 800 capt

If there are enough of you who want to fight it then you'll strike and be on the street. But I don't think you'll find enough. Those that can leave are either gone or on furlough and not coming back. You will be overcome by the crowd wanting to save the company, IMHO. Or those who finally can't take it anymore will just leave.

 

[jehtplane]

And the regionals. Boy I feel for you folks. There is a world of pain in store for you when the 100 seaters get going. Maybe be for SWA too, but even more for the average regional.

Why? How many seats are on a 737-200?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Tie the pay rates to manangment compensation. You will take them ONLY as long as every manager does not get a raise, bonus, ANYTHING. The second the management get a raise, bonus, anything over a predetermined limit the contract snaps back.

MAKE MANAGEMENT FEEL THE PAIN LIKE WE ALL HAVE

Nice wish list, but not gonna happen. Don't you know how capitolism works? And you have a staunch Republican in the White house. Airline management is more aggressive with Republicans in charge.

Delta and NWA did not offer serious deals to labor when they had the chance. They waited until BK to start FORCING THEIR DEAL ON LABOR. Labor will have no say in how management is compensated. Find me any good sized company that does.

Besides, I think at least NWA feels labor is to be kicked and toyed with at will.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Why? How many seats are on a 737-200?

Why?

Some of your RJ routes where you have several departures a day will be replaced by 100 seat service when it comes on-line. Not a 737-200 with current mainline crew hourly rates, that fuel and CASM hog has no place in the equation.

 

[Otto]

Jetblue...bringing down the profession

And the regionals. Boy I feel for you folks. There is a world of pain in store for you when the 100 seaters get going. Maybe for SWA too, but even more for the average regional.

I'm sure Johnny Ornstein at Mesa is pissed since he wanted to have the first company flying mainline aircraft at regional wages. Somebody beat him to the punch: somebody called Jetblue.

 

[jehtplane]

Why?

Some of your RJ routes where you have several departures a day will be replaced by 100 seat service when it comes on-line. Not 737-200 with current mainline crew hourly rates, that fuel and CASM hog has no place in the equation.

I would say to a small extent, I would say those aircraft would be better deployed on routes that support that size equipment. The several departures a day thing is good for customer service isn't it? But hey what do I know. Maybe it would be better to put one flight a day on a 777 from CHA-ATL as opposed to 5 ATR's or RJ's. But seriously I am more concerned about the Payrate's at which everyone keeps lowering themselves to. 88.00 for twelve year captain, not good, considering that a 12 year captain here on the 700 makes 86.00. I think we all might be flying for free soon at this rate.

 

[Crash Pad]

Wow the sudden discovery that a pilot is a pilot. Paying dues, and the "I've earned it" mentaility have been whiped out in one single negotiator note pad.

I think this will be good for the industry it will make pilots more mobile than they have ever been. Any regional, major, or LCC will have varying levels of the same garbage pay. Now getting a thousand PIC is about as important as getting a comerical rating. I think this will allow pilots to move around more. Soon PNCL won't be the only ones offering signing bonuses and incentives to get pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

Management Incentives

If you take away management incentives, who will manage the companies to ensure the pilots are paid? This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last couple years had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. AA tried to take seats out of the airplanes, to attract people with more room, did not work. UAL and USAirways have used BK in an attempt to start with a clean slate. ATA tried getting a fleet of new fuel-efficient airplanes, which did not work. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2002 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

Imagine poor little o me at Midwest making $149 an hour and I will be making more than a senior Delta captain? Me? Who would have thunk it.

 

[surplus1]

I am not familiar with this works especially while in bankruptcy, and I hate to use Comair as an example because they are falling under hard times as well, but they also took concessions for growth, which did not happen, which kinda sounds like this proposal, or at least how you just worded it , what is to stop management from securing the payrates and then furloughing anyway. Comair, sorry guys and gals, took it in the rear and basically got nothing to show for it! We do not want your 100 seat aircraft by any means, but sounds an awful lot like concessions for growth to me.

If you actually believe that Comiar's previous concessions were "for growth" then it is true, as you said, that you're not familiar with how this works. Those concessions were and effort to "hold on" and survive, not for growth.

The DL pilots will have to do whatever they need to do in the effort to survive. If you really thingk CMR pilots took "concessions" last time around, you're about to get a very rude awakening to what "concession" really means when you see what we have to do next.

Better get ready to grin and bear it for there is no way that CMR can avoid the effects of Delta's failure to properly manage their airline.

Keep in mind that our position at CMR is like just like being a passenger in "steerage" on the Titanic. The first class passengers on the DL list will get the lifeboats. We'll be lucky if we get a left-over life jacket. Plan on doing a lot of "swimming" in the cesspool before you get rescued, IF that ever happens.

Being the subsidiary of a bankrupt company isn't as good as a pair of 2's in a high stakes poker game. Reality sucks, but it is still reality.

Plan on a 20% pay cut, the loss of 50 airplanes and the gutting of the rest of the CBA. If what's left survives, figure you lucked out.

The company we work for has been destroyed by the company that "owns" us, and we are expected to be thankful and smile. There is nothing we can do to change it.

Sorry to forecast bad news, but the truth is this is going to get far worse before it gets any better.

 

[Ty Webb]

Imagine poor little o me at Midwest making $149 an hour and I will be making more than a senior Delta captain? Me? Who would have thunk it.

Don't worry, Chuckie, you won't have to make that comparison much longer. Funny how these things work out.

 

[bafanguy]

ALPA needs to make a stand, if they have B@lls.

By the way, if these payrates stick, the whole industry will see it and suffer via trickledown effect.

Sure, ALPA can dig in their heels and "...make a stand if they have b@lls." But, this is bankruptcy ( it's been in a lot of newspapers ) and most, if not all, the influence ALPA historically had over their own destiny is now largely ceremonial.

They can "...take a stand...", only to have the judge perform a quick, painful orchiectomy. This is now about damage control and taking care of as many of THEIR OWN as possible and returning to fight the battle another day.. As GL said, DL recently had the bar as high as it's ever been. Maybe now it's YOUR turn to do that. Let us know how it's going for you.

Bashing Delta pilots for being bashed in BK just doesn't seem to be a very logical point of view.

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

Don't worry, Chuckie, you won't have to make that comparison much longer. Funny how these things work out.

Are you now a finacial wizard or are you just blowing some more smoke out of your a$$? Another lame attempt to flame by Ty. Now go back to watching your cartoons.

 

[RP170]

I would say to a small extent, I would say those aircraft would be better deployed on routes that support that size equipment. The several departures a day thing is good for customer service isn't it? But hey what do I know. Maybe it would be better to put one flight a day on a 777 from CHA-ATL as opposed to 5 ATR's or RJ's. But seriously I am more concerned about the Payrate's at which everyone keeps lowering themselves to. 88.00 for twelve year captain, not good, considering that a 12 year captain here on the 700 makes 86.00. I think we all might be flying for free soon at this rate.

Well said. It's amazing that the regional pilots were always "lowering the bar" or guilty of "SJS." These proposed 100 seat pay rates at the majors prove this is no longer the case. Those rates sure make the 190 rates at Republic look pretty dang good now don't they? Sure the aircraft do belong at mainline but let's fly them for mainline pay rates not rates that are lower than regional rates. It's amazing how people will sell themselves out to save their jobs with the attitude that "hey it's not a big deal, we can work on raising those pay rates later." I've got news for you, those will be industry standard rates for a long time to come if pay rates like that are approved. That's why the industry has already reached the levels it has. Management has got you by the nads on this one. The race to the bottom will now reach unpresidented levels: the bottom. Absolutely amazing. Just when you thought you've seen it all and it can't get any worse.

 

[jehtplane]

If you actually believe that Comiar's previous concessions were "for growth" then it is true, as you said, that you're not familiar with how this works. Those concessions were and effort to "hold on" and survive, not for growth.

The DL pilots will have to do whatever they need to do in the effort to survive. If you really thingk CMR pilots took "concessions" last time around, you're about to get a very rude awakening to what "concession" really means when you see what we have to do next.

Better get ready to grin and bear it for there is no way that CMR can avoid the effects of Delta's failure to properly manage their airline.

Keep in mind that our position at CMR is like just like being a passenger in "steerage" on the Titanic. The first class passengers on the DL list will get the lifeboats. We'll be lucky if we get a left-over life jacket. Plan on doing a lot of "swimming" in the cesspool before you get rescued, IF that ever happens.

Being the subsidiary of a bankrupt company isn't as good as a pair of 2's in a high stakes poker game. Reality sucks, but it is still reality.

Plan on a 20% pay cut, the loss of 50 airplanes and the gutting of the rest of the CBA. If what's left survives, figure you lucked out.

The company we work for has been destroyed by the company that "owns" us, and we are expected to be thankful and smile. There is nothing we can do to change it.

Sorry to forecast bad news, but the truth is this is going to get far worse before it gets any better.

Dude come on man, those concessions were for growth, management showed you the E-170 and you bought off on it. They had done the same thing to both of us just a year earlier. I really do wish you guys the best and I am sorry for you and yours. Hopefully things will not be as bad as everyone is suggesting. It sure is amazing how things have turned, how everyone is trying to undercut the other guy, and now the majors are being forced to knock their payscales right down to that of a regional, and I hate to say it but do not be surprised if management comes to the DCI carriers for another RFP for those same airplanes, how sad this whole thing has become , I truly wish everyone the best!

 

[General Lee]

Well said. It's amazing that the regional pilots were always "lowering the bar" or guilty of "SJS." These proposed 100 seat pay rates at the majors prove this is no longer the case. Those rates sure make the 190 rates at Republic look pretty dang good now don't they? Sure the aircraft do belong at mainline but let's fly them for mainline pay rates not rates that are lower than regional rates. It's amazing how people will sell themselves out to save their jobs with the attitude that "hey it's not a big deal, we can work on raising those pay rates later." I've got news for you, those will be industry standard rates for a long time to come if pay rates like that are approved. That's why the industry has already reached the levels it has. Management has got you by the nads on this one. The race to the bottom will now reach unpresidented levels: the bottom. Absolutely amazing. Just when you thought you've seen it all and it can't get any worse.

It's different when a juges makes you do it. You guys bought off on it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[RP170]

It's different when a juges makes you do it. You guys bought off on it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The judge will make you fly new 100 seaters? Don't you have to vote on the newly proposed pay rates for those aircraft before a judge can force you to fly them for those rates? Maybe I'm wrong but I thought that was how it worked? Looks like we bought off on it at some pretty good rates now huh? Do those mainline 100 seat rates sound good to you General? Why don't you share your view on what you think about it.

 

[FDJ2]

The judge will make you fly new 100 seaters? Don't you have to vote on the newly proposed pay rates for those aircraft before a judge can force you to fly them for those rates?

I'm not sure what your point is, but the judge imposes a contract when one is not ratified by the union. Those rates and that PWA is DAL's opener/wish list, they have not been approved by the DAL MEC or pilots.

Were your rates imposed on you by a judge, were they negotiated in bankruptcy or through the Railway Labor Act? There's a big difference, you can grasp that, can't you?

 

[RP170]

I'm not sure what your point is, but the judge imposes a contract when one is not ratified by the union. Those rates and that PWA is DAL's opener/wish list, they have not been approved by the DAL MEC or pilots.

Were your rates imposed on you by a judge, were they negotiated in bankruptcy or through the Railway Labor Act? There's a big difference, you can grasp that, can't you?

I understand that but no rates have been imposed by anyone yet. It just seems everyone is happy with those proposed rates and is just going to roll with it. Can't the union bargain whatsoever and propose something higher? I guess seeing those pay rates just bothers me more than it bothers your own pilots considering there are proposed 190 regional rates that are higher than those. Everyone has been preaching how the 190's should be flown at mainline for mainline wages and attacked regionals that have proposed or suggested flying these aircraft. Maybe I'm confused here but that's how I view it.

 

[V1andgo]

How about, we agree on pay rates for position rather than equipment size? Just like UPS. All Cap.s and FOs make the same regardless of aircraft size, only longevity yield's pay increases.
Just for fun let us say, Captains should make $100,000 to $150,000 and FOs $70,000 to $100,000. The company is free to buy whatever size airplane they feel make the most money without time consuming pay rate negotiations. Also, overall training costs would decrease. For Pilots this could mean less training time away from families, maybe ever less commuting time just to maintain our standard of living after displacements and furloughs, and, most of all, job security.
Just an idea! What do you think?

 

[CheapFlyer]

Well said. It's amazing that the regional pilots were always "lowering the bar" or guilty of "SJS." These proposed 100 seat pay rates at the majors prove this is no longer the case. Those rates sure make the 190 rates at Republic look pretty dang good now don't they? Sure the aircraft do belong at mainline but let's fly them for mainline pay rates not rates that are lower than regional rates. It's amazing how people will sell themselves out to save their jobs with the attitude that "hey it's not a big deal, we can work on raising those pay rates later." I've got news for you, those will be industry standard rates for a long time to come if pay rates like that are approved. That's why the industry has already reached the levels it has. Management has got you by the nads on this one. The race to the bottom will now reach unpresidented levels: the bottom. Absolutely amazing. Just when you thought you've seen it all and it can't get any worse.

I think you need to relax a bit! The title of this thread is called "DAL wants...". This is not exactly what the Delta pilots want, but much of it will be forced upon them. Hopefully they will be able to bargain and keep the pain to a minimum.


-CF

 

[~~~^~~~]

Hey Delta boys, you starting to figure out what alter ego whipsaw is? You ready to admit your scope policy is a miserable failure and the ASA and Comair pilots were right at the 2000 BOD meeting? You ready to admit the RJDC are the only true believers in ALPA's original mission?

Now the difference between you and the Jet Blue pilots (that you snidely looked down your noses at) is that they have better pay rates and they perform all of their Company's flying. No Judge has forced anything on you yet. Don't blame the Court. Put the blame where it belongs, ALPA's failed scope policy and your own greed during contract 2000 negotiations.

Once you understand the source of your problem you can begin fixing it. As long as you continue to blame the innocent for your problems, your problems will only get worse.

Delta has a good network system and when you guys sign off on flying the airplanes for almost nothing I am sure Delta will return to the market as a very competitive player. In fact I dumped my AAI stock because I believe Delta will pull through this. But, in the process you guys continue to gut the profession (by encouraging alter ego airlines) and the lowering tide is now starting to sink your own pay and working conditions. It is amazing that you lost the scope war, with self inflicted gunshot wounds. The regional pilots were locked out of the fight.

~~~^~~~

 

[Green]

v1andgo,


Don't you think those flatrates you just proposed are a little low???? Captains between 100k and 150k? That's anywhere from 50-100k less than captians make at SWA not to even mention cargo rates. 100k-150k sounds like fo wages.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If you actually believe that Comiar's previous concessions were "for growth" then it is true, as you said, that you're not familiar with how this works. Those concessions were and effort to "hold on" and survive, not for growth.

The DL pilots will have to do whatever they need to do in the effort to survive.

Plan on a 20% pay cut, the loss of 50 airplanes and the gutting of the rest of the CBA. If what's left survives, figure you lucked out.

Sorry to forecast bad news, but the truth is this is going to get far worse before it gets any better.

Surplus:

The Comair pilots' concessions for growth was a cheap shot against the ASA pilots who stood beside you and funded your causes for our mutual benefit. The fact your MEC mailed support stickers to the ASA pilots while negotiating a secret side deal for Connection flying will be remembered.

Predatory barganing is rarely rewarded and if rewarded, never lasts since once you have dropped the ethical standard, other pilots have no reluctance to undercut your predatory deal. There is no honor amongst theives.

You continue to preach "what ever it takes" and you will continue to live with the result. I liked it better when you held the moral high ground.

Like most market swings, both the high and the low sides are over estimated by those who observe the trends. But trend watchers are always looking backward at what has happened, not forward.

Delta has a great network. If they get religion regarding the spending over at Virginia Avenue they can put the airline back on track. It might mean that funding for book tours of Gay Marine Porn Stars have to be cancelled, but that would be a good thing also.

Hope you find your way back....

~~~^~~~

 

[wms]

Wow...

CHQ this, and CHQ that

DAL 12 year $88.93
CHQ 12 year $96.27

"Let's keep the 190's at mainline so we can preserve the mainline jobs, and the great payscales" Blah, blah...

And what aircraft do you move to at CHQ?

 

[RP170]

And what aircraft do you move to at CHQ?

You won't be moving anyplace at Delta except backwards for a long long time. Good luck guys.

 

[wms]

The DAL pilots are already flying 100 seat 732s for good money. The replacement is the E190, and to keep from getting low-balled, they have to low-ball. They were forced into a race to the bottom started by the regional pilots, of which I am one. But they're not doing it for SGS, they're doing to keep the jobs they've been losing to us. Meanwhile we've been foolishly securing a job at the regionals by keeping growth here rather than the majors. I hope they go even further and low-ball the E170, too. Keep in mind also that without DAL there is no DCI. We need their success for our own existence. RJs can't feed RJs.

 

[jehtplane]

The DAL pilots are already flying 100 seat 732s for good money. The replacement is the E190, and to keep from getting low-balled, they have to low-ball. They were forced into a race to the bottom started by the regional pilots, of which I am one. But they're not doing it for SGS, they're doing to keep the jobs they've been losing to us. Meanwhile we've been foolishly securing a job at the regionals by keeping growth here rather than the majors. I hope they go even further and low-ball the E170, too. Keep in mind also that without DAL there is no DCI. We need their success for our own existence. RJs can't feed RJs.

How do you figure it is our fault?

 

[banger]

IAHERJ,


Remember, we aren't allowing it, the judge is. We brought the bar up to the highest it has ever been, and we should ALL strive to be paid well---very well. His comments might have been mean, but we all should know the difference between allowing the rates to happen, versus them being put on top of you. There really isn't much we can do about it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey General, I don't like what the company is doing to you either. I think you and the rest of the pilot industry deserve more. But you have no control of it. Not unlike we at jetBlue have. You bemoaned us for letting it happen, not fighting back. You have a union! Lets see you fight back. I don't think you will. I don't think you can.
Yea, I know.. its different... We make money, we are in a position to offer a raise. Well looks like this quarter we might not make money. I honesty don't think our company can afford a raise right now. I'm not slammin you. I just think now your seeing from the other side.
If you guys just hold the line...we can tell our management we ought to be paid..... blah blah blah...........

Hope you guys negotiate well