DAL Wants...

[Dizel8]

Dizel8, I know you're having fun with this, but do you really think that a pilot group negotiating under CH11 vs. the RLA is in a position to raise the bar or have much leverage in negotiating pay rates?

Then I guess they need to take the fall for the "profession", after all that is how it should be, right?

In all seriousness though, I will not be blaming the Delta pilots whatever the outcome, they need to do, what they feel is best for them. Like someone else said about the 100 seaters, get them on mainline/the property and then worry about the pay. jetblue pilots have been saying this for months, let's get the airplane, have it prove itself, then worry about the pay issue, however, that clearly was not good enough for some. Now, it appear those people were throwing stones at glasshouses, since their attitude has changed dramatically.

 

[General Lee]

Well, our management didn't look far for "current" rates on new 100 seaters. They looked at yours. Our past 100 seater, the 732, paid a lot more. I think Grinstein just called Dave Neeleman and said he owed him a free Pizza party....Dave Bushey will hand out the slices....But hey, whatever it takes to become a low cost carrier......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bafanguy]

Cool your jets! BAFANGUY,

My Impression, You are probably a SENIOR CAPTAIN at Delta, all u care about is perserving your pension. Is that true?

No cooling required here. The comments for ALPA to take a stand, particularly at a carrier in BK, are just fruitless chest pounding. Criticism directed at any carrier's pilots, including DL, under these circumstances is so irrational there's likely nothing to be gained by trying to talk the critics.

DALPA's opening memo following entry into BK contained a not-so-thinly disguised threat of resorting to "...self help..." if things didn't go to their liking with the PWA in BK. Take a stand ? You mean like the NWA mechanics ? How's that working for 'em so far ?

So, the judge hasn't done anything to DL yet ? Well, precedent has been set and judging from the opening salvo from DL's BK judge, reasonable guesses can be made about how it's going to go from here. We'll see...

All I care about is my pension ? At this point, since there's little else to do but make decisions in the best interest of my family, bet every cent you have on that. What would be your alternative plan...stick around and lose it all ? Explain that decision to your family. I, and 2000+ people like me, did just what you will do under the same circumstances. This ain't the Boy Scouts...

 

[jbucpt]

Then you really don't know me. You have had over 5000 posts to figure it out. I care about our furloughs (I know many), and I enjoy the whole industry. I like to rib you guys at B6 and I give krap to the Comair guys for snubbing our furloughs, but that is about it. Have a great one.


Bye Bye--General Lee

sure you do...thats why you and your dalpa boys picked up extra flying. oh, thats right, you were "saving the company", or was it, "there was nothing we could do about it".........

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/comment/dumbest/10243990.html


The Five Dumbest Things on Wall Street This Week
By Colin Barr
Companies Editor
9/23/2005 7:04 AM EDT
Click here for more stories by Colin Barr

Delta, Delta, Delta
Can bankruptcy help ya, help ya, help ya?

1. Liftoff

Even in bankruptcy, the airline industry seems doomed to repeat its own mistakes.

On Thursday, Delta (DAL:NYSE - commentary - research - Cramer's Take) tightened its belt yet again. Just a week after seeking Chapter 11 protection, the big Atlanta-based carrier set plans to eliminate as many as 9,000 jobs on top of the 8,000 it has cut in the last year. Delta is calling for staffwide salary givebacks too, mostly in the 7% to 10% range. All told, the moves will help Delta to slash annual costs by $3 billion.

No one doubts the cutbacks are necessary. Hefty overhead and a sharp rise in energy prices have laid low big carriers such as US Airways and Northwest (NWACQ:Nasdaq - commentary - research - Cramer's Take), and even stronger players such as Southwest (LUV:NYSE - commentary - research - Cramer's Take) have grown dependent on gimmicks like fuel-price hedging. And to his credit, Delta CEO Gerald Grinstein saved the deepest cut for himself, docking his own pay 25%.

But underlying Delta's latest plan is yet another optimistic assumption, the likes of which you'd think industry execs would have gotten over by now. Delta is assuming it can zip through bankruptcy court in just over two years.

Delta's comments echo those made by United parent UAL almost three years ago. In December 2002, CEO Glenn Tilton pledged to get United back on its feet in just 18 months. But today, UAL is still operating under bankruptcy protection. Last week it disclosed plans to emerge from Chapter 11 on Feb. 1 -- nearly 38 months after its bankruptcy filing.

"Delta will move quickly and decisively to do what is necessary to beat our competitors and meet our financial commitments, and this means we will become a smaller, more cost-efficient airline, with a strengthened network and a stronger balance sheet," Grinstein said Thursday. "Our transformation will be sweeping and fast-paced; it must be if we are to survive and thrive as a stand-alone company in control of our own destiny."

You can't fault Grinstein for trying. But considering all its other problems, a race against time is the last thing Delta needs right now. http://images.thestreet.com/tsc/common/images/storyimages/dum90.jpg

Dumb-o-Meter score: 90. Considering United's experience, time should be getting some good odds against Delta.

 

[Dizel8]

Well, our management didn't look far for "current" rates on new 100 seaters.

Well, that sounds if it is your problem and you will have to deal with it accordingly. Like I said, whatever the outcome, I shall not be spending time blaming the DAL pilots for lowering the bar, or accusing them of wishing to marry their sister etc.

Strange as it may seem, I hope the best for you all, I just hope you remember that, next time you decide to speak of the "evil" OAL pilots.

 

[skykid]

Delta's comments echo those made by United parent UAL almost three years ago. In December 2002, CEO Glenn Tilton pledged to get United back on its feet in just 18 months. But today, UAL is still operating under bankruptcy protection. Last week it disclosed plans to emerge from Chapter 11 on Feb. 1 -- nearly 38 months after its bankruptcy filing.

Delta won't have to shift strategies half way through after not getting an ATSB loan guarantee, and only has one union to pummel.

 

[WatchYourElbows]

*** an ATSB loan that all the majors (including the two newest entrants) lobbied long and hard against. Karma! Gotta love it.

 

[thruthemurk]

deleted

 

[michael707767]

what a weakd#ck argument. I work for sh%t because someday I won't have to?

isn't that why anyone would take a job at a regional? Do you think starting pay, or really any FO pay at a regional is not sh*tty pay? It is. But for some its worth it to be able to move up to RJ captain and/or maybe move on to another airline some day.

 

[densoo]

bizjournals.com
Delta pilots 'dismayed' over job cuts
Friday September 23, 12:06 pm ET

Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots released a statement today saying the bankrupt airline's job cuts plan will "impose a further massive burden" on them "without adequate attention to relief from other sources."

Bankrupt Delta said Sept. 22 it will eliminate 7,000 to 9,000 jobs (17 percent of its total workforce) by the end of 2007. Of those cuts, about 25 percent -- 1,750 to 2,250 jobs -- will come from metro Atlanta. It also will cut salaries across the board and expects to reap an annual savings of $325 million just from Delta pilots."

 

[No Delay]

If the delta guys are willing to fly a 79 seat airplane - at such a low rate...then why would they not take the 50 CRJ?

Differance: A handful of seats and a few bucks and hour???

I know we have the whole 1st year suck @ss pay that saves the airline money...but it just seems they could save a ton by running just one airline.

I am asking a serious question - don't beat me up too bad for flying a CRJ.

 

[NTS ALL 4]

Well, our management didn't look far for "current" rates on new 100 seaters. They looked at yours. ....But hey, whatever it takes to become a low cost carrier......


Bye Bye--General Lee

Looks like pay wasn't the only thing Delta copied in the last 3 years! Song, sound familiar. I believe this was long before Jetblue "lowered the bar" for 100 seat pay. At least the DALPA boys and girls could try and do something new for a change and stop copying the LCCs. It really is getting old watching Deltoid back-peddle into a LCC by "lowering the bar" even further.

Thank you ALPA! My dues at work again!

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Due you Delta guys think these new rates will make people leave the profession altogether and go do something else. It's not that difficult to make 100K in a 9-5 job where you home every night. I know there was a good article in the AJC at the first of the year that profiled several guys that were going to part-time law school and they said upon graduating that they planned on entering the practice of law full time.

 

[DL_Infidel]

Due you Delta guys think these new rates will make people leave the profession altogether and go do something else. It's not that difficult to make 100K in a 9-5 job where you home every night. I know there was a good article in the AJC at the first of the year that profiled several guys that were going to part-time law school and they said upon graduating that they planned on entering the practice of law full time.

I'll be leaving DL by choice, with flying and non-flying options available to me. I have roughly 1000 below me. Several pilots I speak with are also dusting off the log books and cranking out resumes. Why stay at a company that has no retirement, no medical after retirement, only to skim by every month with low pay and spend more time away from the family? For me it's not worth it. I'm willing to park aircraft based on this proposal (BTW, that is leverage)...but I'm probably in the minority. If DALPA gives DCI 79 200 seat jets, my job is history along with a thousand + others.

 

[michael707767]

For me it's not worth it. I'm willing to park aircraft based on this proposal (BTW, that is leverage)....

I have not yet talked to a pilot who is not willing to park aircraft over this proposal.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Delta won't have to shift strategies half way through after not getting an ATSB loan guarantee, and only has one union to pummel.

I agree there are more differences than www.thestreet.com is mentioning. The playing field is more of a known than an unknown, if I can quote Rumsfeld. With JetBlue's, AA's, UAL's and USAir's future costs becoming more predictable it will be easier for Delta to get financing for 100 seaters. Even SWA's hedges will be less of a factor by 2007, but that is not really important to Delta's future. If certain milestones are met, such as pension termination and leases/debt restructured appropriately, I believe we will see a faster transition at Delta and new aircraft on the property by 2007 or 2008.

 

[Buckaroo]

I have not yet talked to a pilot who is not willing to park aircraft over this proposal.

Typical pilots - only care about themselves. Could care less about the 40,000+ other Delta emplyees that will be affected by "parking aircraft"

So much for restoring the "profession"

Nothing but a bunch of DALPA whores.

 

[DL_Infidel]

Typical pilots - only care about themselves. Could care less about the 40,000+ other Delta emplyees that will be affected by "parking aircraft"

So much for restoring the "profession"

Nothing but a bunch of DALPA whores.

I was once told by a college professor that "people who make generalizations are ignorant." That rings true here. Most DL pilots I've had the pleasure of flying with are quality individuals. According to some, restoring the profession means to capitulate. Sorry, that's not in my blood. Cheers!

 

[Nindiri]

So Delta pilots should sacrifice their careers for everyone else's benefit? Nothing personal against non-pilot employees, but they never saw the need to unionize or pay dues, so why should they now expect the pilots to fall on their sword for them?

 

[IB6 UB9]

I was once told by a college professor that "people who make generalizations are ignorant." That rings true here. Most DL pilots I've had the pleasure of flying with are quality individuals. According to some, restoring the profession means to capitulate. Sorry, that's not in my blood. Cheers!

So is it safe to say that you haven't flown with the "professionals" that frequent this board, bashing other's pay, then hide in the closet sucking their thumbs when it is their turn to take it up the as$ in the concessions line? How many of those have you flown with lately? My exposure to DL pilots has shown me arrogance more than anything.

 

[IB6 UB9]

So Delta pilots should sacrifice their careers for everyone else's benefit? Nothing personal against non-pilot employees, but they never saw the need to unionize or pay dues, so why should they now expect the pilots to fall on their sword for them?

I hope you are kidding. The last bazillion posts by the General sound like I should hold out for better pay, and sacrifice my career. Why is it any different now that the shoe is on the other foot?

 

[A350]

I find it amusing that all these regional pilots are po'ed that the mainline guys are now protecting their backsides........

They took the jets, the routes, and the jobs....all for lower pay and benefits and the jets kept getting bigger and their paychecks hit all time highs and their companies all tripled in size. It is a zero sum game. Every regional pilot hired means another mainline guy hits the street.

And now we have to hold up the bar......and what will be the result. The regionals will keep getting the new jets and the mainline guys will keep getting furlough notices.

In case you were asleep for the past few years, the regionals have all made money the past few years by being exempt from fuel price spikes and the like. The regional pilots just heard their career expectations take a nose dive and they don't like it.

I said years ago when this all started that there would come a day when the mainline pilots undercut the regional pilots to save their own ass.....that time has come.

Dry your eyes......

A350

 

[Nindiri]

I hope you are kidding. The last bazillion posts by the General sound like I should hold out for better pay, and sacrifice my career. Why is it any different now that the shoe is on the other foot?

It isn't any different. I tell the general the same thing when he whines about regional or LCC pilots protecting their jobs. My point was simply that everyone has a right to look out for their own job without somebody else blaming them for their own problems.

 

[msmb]

I keep hearing about how the CMR guys wouldn't hire furloughed DL guys....what has Delta EVER done for CMR? Why should they offer to let them fly RJ's until they can go back to DL and bashing the "barbie jet" pilots? DL pilots wanted to use CMR and got a little peeved when they were denied. I hate to generalize but it seems that the majority of DL pilots have always looked down on CMR. I'm sorry we are all in this situation now, but we have always had to protect our own because we could never expect DL or Alpa to help us out. I have a family to support to support also, but on a much smaller salary then the DL guys and i'm sure it's about to get smaller. You can bet your a@# I will do what is necessary to protect my own.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I love how all the regional guys on this thread are so happy they can call someone else a whore.

Delta stealing CHQ jobs!!!!

I see that they're (DAL, USAir, AWA) just taking back what should have been thiers back with the introduction of the RJ. Making up for thier mistake, getting 90-100 seaters back at mainline.

Sucks to be at the other end of the growth curve doesn't it.

In the years after the introduction of thr RJ, mainline carriers lost the F-28, F-100, BAC 1-11, 737-200, etc. in lieu of explosive regional airline expansion.

It seems that now the tables are turning and mainline pilots are first trying to get the flying back at thier carrier, then work on the payscales.

I applaud them...

Thank you,T Gates!!


PHXFLYR

 

[DL_Infidel]

So is it safe to say that you haven't flown with the "professionals" that frequent this board, bashing other's pay, then hide in the closet sucking their thumbs when it is their turn to take it up the as$ in the concessions line? How many of those have you flown with lately? My exposure to DL pilots has shown me arrogance more than anything.

IB6 UB9,

Hey, my favorite # also. To be honest, no I haven't. Most cockpit conversations I've had lately revolve around early retirements, Ch. 11 and where we're sending resumes. Bashing each other is useless and futile. As you know there are arrogant types in all walks of life. I personally try to withold judgement on individuals, especially when I don't know them. I don't know what's going on in their life...heck, even I can be a jerk once in a while, just ask my wife. Some one just called me a whore...so what. Maybe he was dropped on his head as an infant, not enough Mozart in his early years, rotten childhood, bad day, bad career, lost a loved one or he's perfectly fine. God bless him.

The issue that should be consuming us is not pointing fingers and arguing about how we got here but what we can do collectively to improve our situation....major and regional pilots alike. But as long as we allow management to have it's way and as long as ALPA continues on it's current heading, things will never change.

Okay, I'm out of the pulpit and off the soap box. Back to lurking for a few months.

 

[doh]

'
screw the pay scales. Protect the jobs. We can address pay scales later.

There have been so many Delta pilots whing about "guys who are willing to do the job for less..." Well here you are! You must be the one they were talking about.
The Jet Blue folks actually make about $95 an hour. $89 for the first 70 hours, and time and a half for the next 12 (figuring 82 hour lines each month). Looks like we have found a replacement for the "Mesa Whores". Oh goody!

 

[Buckaroo]

I was once told by a college professor that "people who make generalizations are ignorant." That rings true here. Most DL pilots I've had the pleasure of flying with are quality individuals. According to some, restoring the profession means to capitulate. Sorry, that's not in my blood. Cheers!

Well hell, park the f**king planes and put the company into chp 7. At least you guys will know you were standing up for your principles when your all standing in the unemployment line and your castles in PTC are foreclosed!!

 

[Buckaroo]

I was once told by a college professor that "people who make generalizations are ignorant."

What a coincidence, I was once told by a wise man that Delta pilots are selfish a**holes that only care about themselves.