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FlyinScotsman
Left-Handed Gear Jockey
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Posts
- 189
You "mainline" guys are kind of pi$$in me off. You have cried for years that the regionals have taken your flying, taken your routes etc. The regionals have "lowered the bar" to get more growth, bigger airplanes etc. You have bitched that "if only they would stand up and not take it anymore" "stop the race to the bottom" The regionals have only done this because it has (they think) benefitted them, with quick upgrades and the like. Now that you have to make the choice of take a stand or lose out, you fold like a house of cards. You could now be accused of "lowering the bar" to save yourselves, which I guess is okay because you work for a mainline carrier and must be saved at all costs. I call BS, practice what you preach. Don't "lower the bar", take a stand, take one for the team and some other choice sound bites I have heard over the years. Seesh..... It Sure Sucks When The Shoe Is On The Other Foot.
IAHERJ
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2002
- Posts
- 930
I had a Delta pilot friend joke with me in the ATL airport a few months ago about my Airtran "Mexican payrates". I blew it off and changed the subject and asked about his family. He brought it up again. He is a second generation Delta pilot. I wasn't proud of our pay at the time and am not today. I will say that our pay is ahead of Delta's proposed pay for similar sized aircraft by a long shot. What has this industry come to?? My friend is really just an aquantance from college and tonight I really don't feel for him one bit. His airline is now bringing down the industry. A sentance I never thought I'd write.
IAHERJ
IAHERJ
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
I just saw the proposal and it stinks. I guess when your company is in court, they can ask for whatever they want. Not all will be agreed to, and there should be a little negotiating (a little). As far as the 100 seater, I expected there to be a rate close to Jetblue's, since it is now the benchmark. There wasn't anything about paying double over 70 hours though, and I don't think the company wanted it. I will press ALPA (as much as I can alone) to keep scope and to get the pay rates later. The pension will be gone, which is something the NW guys don't want to give up since they didn't have the 1/2 lump sum deal. There are other things that really bothered me reading the proposal, but Scope is my number one thing.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
IAHERJ,
Remember, we aren't allowing it, the judge is. We brought the bar up to the highest it has ever been, and we should ALL strive to be paid well---very well. His comments might have been mean, but we all should know the difference between allowing the rates to happen, versus them being put on top of you. There really isn't much we can do about it.
And, you don't feel for your "friend" tonight? You're a great friend.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Remember, we aren't allowing it, the judge is. We brought the bar up to the highest it has ever been, and we should ALL strive to be paid well---very well. His comments might have been mean, but we all should know the difference between allowing the rates to happen, versus them being put on top of you. There really isn't much we can do about it.
And, you don't feel for your "friend" tonight? You're a great friend.
Bye Bye--General Lee
AnimalTale
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Posts
- 543
ilinipilot
Barely awake in Training
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2002
- Posts
- 367
I can't believe that every post here is accepting this company proposal as a done deal. I, for one , am ready to do anything to stop the rape of what is left of our contract. I am looking foreward to the fight. Michael707 and General Lee sound like they are ready to cave in. Remember, GE and AMX are putting up 2B to finance this BK. I would rather strike or find some other way to burn through that 2B than accept any part of that crappy company proposal. You guys sound like you haven't read the entire document. If you have, go back and read it again. If even half of the proposal is forced on us, Delta will be the worst airline in the ccountry to work for. I say Fight to the end. Frick GG
Ignore my profile...Iam an active 800 capt
Ignore my profile...Iam an active 800 capt
FlyBoeingJets
YES, that's NICE
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2003
- Posts
- 1,802
Wow. This proposal by Delta management has a lot of ramifications. I thought management, and labor, were short sighted waiting this long for going BK and working on rates. But by waiting they get bigger cuts. I am not happy or enthusiastic about the new rates, but it might be what saves Delta for the next 5 years. Like the K-car for Chrysler. But it looks like UAL -1 or -10. A HUGE change in roles.
But, Mainline gets the "order" for 100 seaters. It may not be a win for labor with the rates sucking, but the alternative was for them to go to regionals like Mesa. When UAL and DAL fly A-320 and E-190 sized airplanes at JetBlue, or lower, costs Neeleman and company will face a real threat. Not like Song. The market sees this as they downgrade JetBlue debt. I never understood the theory of keeping costs at Delta significantly higher than Airtran and Jetblue and hope everything turns out o.k. But it did work for a time. That time is now gone. I used to think things move quickly in this industry but they actually move slowly. But move they do. Just think, if Delta had done half of this cut years ago Airtran and Jetblue would be but a memory. But that was an impossibility. Too many people near enough to retirement with too much to lose.
The chest beating about bringing down the profession is not going to fly the next couple of years. The guys looking out for their jobs will likely tell them to shut up and color. The situation is too dire. There is no more financial room left for it.
Now that management has labor against the wall, they are asking for what they really want. They will ensure labor costs are low enough to make a profit with high oil and will be laughing all the way to the bank when oil falls or tickets go up. They will be saying a deal is a deal and stall on any pay raises. Airline negotiating and contracts haven't changed that much. Management is setting up to follow the years of big losses with years of big profit.
I thought we might be entering a new era a couple of years ago. I would have liked to see pay cuts until profitability but with a kicker. If the jet fuel bill falls, pay rises a percentage. Instead we see just another big cut with some profit sharing.
Has anyone noticed after NWA and DAL it will be SWA's turn to offer pay cuts? There are those at SWA that say this is ridiculous, but it is coming.
And the regionals. Boy I feel for you folks. There is a world of pain in store for you when the 100 seaters get going. Maybe for SWA too, but even more for the average regional.
But, Mainline gets the "order" for 100 seaters. It may not be a win for labor with the rates sucking, but the alternative was for them to go to regionals like Mesa. When UAL and DAL fly A-320 and E-190 sized airplanes at JetBlue, or lower, costs Neeleman and company will face a real threat. Not like Song. The market sees this as they downgrade JetBlue debt. I never understood the theory of keeping costs at Delta significantly higher than Airtran and Jetblue and hope everything turns out o.k. But it did work for a time. That time is now gone. I used to think things move quickly in this industry but they actually move slowly. But move they do. Just think, if Delta had done half of this cut years ago Airtran and Jetblue would be but a memory. But that was an impossibility. Too many people near enough to retirement with too much to lose.
The chest beating about bringing down the profession is not going to fly the next couple of years. The guys looking out for their jobs will likely tell them to shut up and color. The situation is too dire. There is no more financial room left for it.
Now that management has labor against the wall, they are asking for what they really want. They will ensure labor costs are low enough to make a profit with high oil and will be laughing all the way to the bank when oil falls or tickets go up. They will be saying a deal is a deal and stall on any pay raises. Airline negotiating and contracts haven't changed that much. Management is setting up to follow the years of big losses with years of big profit.
I thought we might be entering a new era a couple of years ago. I would have liked to see pay cuts until profitability but with a kicker. If the jet fuel bill falls, pay rises a percentage. Instead we see just another big cut with some profit sharing.
Has anyone noticed after NWA and DAL it will be SWA's turn to offer pay cuts? There are those at SWA that say this is ridiculous, but it is coming.
And the regionals. Boy I feel for you folks. There is a world of pain in store for you when the 100 seaters get going. Maybe for SWA too, but even more for the average regional.
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FlyBoeingJets
YES, that's NICE
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2003
- Posts
- 1,802
GCAP said:
If there are enough of you who want to fight it then you'll strike and be on the street. But I don't think you'll find enough. Those that can leave are either gone or on furlough and not coming back. You will be overcome by the crowd wanting to save the company, IMHO. Or those who finally can't take it anymore will just leave.
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FlyBoeingJets
YES, that's NICE
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2003
- Posts
- 1,802
ilinipilot said:
Nice wish list, but not gonna happen. Don't you know how capitolism works? And you have a staunch Republican in the White house. Airline management is more aggressive with Republicans in charge.
Delta and NWA did not offer serious deals to labor when they had the chance. They waited until BK to start FORCING THEIR DEAL ON LABOR. Labor will have no say in how management is compensated. Find me any good sized company that does.
Besides, I think at least NWA feels labor is to be kicked and toyed with at will.
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FlyBoeingJets
YES, that's NICE
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2003
- Posts
- 1,802
FlyBoeingJets said:
I would say to a small extent, I would say those aircraft would be better deployed on routes that support that size equipment. The several departures a day thing is good for customer service isn't it? But hey what do I know. Maybe it would be better to put one flight a day on a 777 from CHA-ATL as opposed to 5 ATR's or RJ's. But seriously I am more concerned about the Payrate's at which everyone keeps lowering themselves to. 88.00 for twelve year captain, not good, considering that a 12 year captain here on the 700 makes 86.00. I think we all might be flying for free soon at this rate.
Wow the sudden discovery that a pilot is a pilot. Paying dues, and the "I've earned it" mentaility have been whiped out in one single negotiator note pad.
I think this will be good for the industry it will make pilots more mobile than they have ever been. Any regional, major, or LCC will have varying levels of the same garbage pay. Now getting a thousand PIC is about as important as getting a comerical rating. I think this will allow pilots to move around more. Soon PNCL won't be the only ones offering signing bonuses and incentives to get pilots.
I think this will be good for the industry it will make pilots more mobile than they have ever been. Any regional, major, or LCC will have varying levels of the same garbage pay. Now getting a thousand PIC is about as important as getting a comerical rating. I think this will allow pilots to move around more. Soon PNCL won't be the only ones offering signing bonuses and incentives to get pilots.
pilotyip
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 13,629
Management Incentives
If you take away management incentives, who will manage the companies to ensure the pilots are paid? This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last couple years had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. AA tried to take seats out of the airplanes, to attract people with more room, did not work. UAL and USAirways have used BK in an attempt to start with a clean slate. ATA tried getting a fleet of new fuel-efficient airplanes, which did not work. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2002 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.
If you take away management incentives, who will manage the companies to ensure the pilots are paid? This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last couple years had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. AA tried to take seats out of the airplanes, to attract people with more room, did not work. UAL and USAirways have used BK in an attempt to start with a clean slate. ATA tried getting a fleet of new fuel-efficient airplanes, which did not work. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2002 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.
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